A lesson in how to handle a DUI checkpoint

Here's the facts, in the order that they appeared.

Well, RunninInGA, all I can say now is that this was a time consuming thread for me, and time is something I don't have to waste. As you said, if you expect certain kinds of responses, you should be very clear in your initial post about what kind of discussion you are trying to start. Since my thoughts/input didn't satisfy your expectations of what might come from the thread, I'll just go ahead and save my breath.

The main reason I stay out of the off topic section is because these threads almost always digress into some kind of political debate, and frankly I'm not in the business of changing minds. Carry on, and I'll see you in the 3rd gen section! :cheers: :peace:

THIS is where I initially decided that I was no longer going to engage you in any serious manner, and "stomped" out of the thread. Notice that in my stomping, I basically wished you well and said "we'll talk later". Not much stomping there, really.

RunninInGA,

This is a little bit off topic. You had intended this discussion to focus on the erosion and or exercise of our rights as guaranteed to us as part of our American citizenship. ;):

Poked some fun at you...

Semantics, semantics. Start a topic about DUI checkpoints (it's in the title after all).... and end up talking about all kinds of random situations because they can also be evaluated for the degree to which our rights were eroded/excercised in said situations. Off topic at it's FINEST!

How about this one?

The Naked Gun: From the Files of Police Squad! (2/10) Movie CLIP - Student Driver (1988) HD - YouTube

By commandeering the driving school vehicle, has the officer (Leslie Neilson) violated the 5th ammendment rights of the owner? Were our rights as a society measurably eroded? What can the owner of the vehicle do to effectively excercise his rights? What does media like this say about US citizens being mentally programmed to accept such a violation of our rights in a police emergency?

5th amendment, for reference:

Poked a little more fun at you!

^it would appear as though I did hurt your feelings after all. I underestimated your frailty, BFAD.

BAM! Weak insult from you. Guess you can't handle a little joking around, you have to go for the low blow.

What you did was compel me to stay up late the other night, when I had to be at work at 530 the next morning, typing up a well thought out response that containted what I thought were some good points/ideas that were relevant to your thread.

Then you skipped right over the response without the consideration of a well thought out response on your part, but merely a dismissal as irrelevant.

Then you went off topic in the same manner you accused me of doing.

So I had to give you a hard time about it. Now you're coming back with what equates to a passive agressive insult. Perhaps I have overestimated your intellect.

If you are as intelligent as you have so far appeared, you would realize that there is a difference between having ones feelings hurt, and being mildly annoyed.

More facts from me. You do know what facts are, right? I know you specialize in quotes, so I'm just checking here.

Don't dish it out....



.......

If you can't take it....





Remember that prior to the somewhat insulting characterization you aimed at me, I had shown you nothing but courtesy and respect.

You're beginning to come off as a hypocrite, both in your speech/posts, and your behavior.

Couldn't resist piggy backing on Thai's offense... At this point I find it more entertaining to push you, than to engage you in an intellectual conversation. I realize I am talking to a wall.

Oh, BFAD, it takes far more substance than your last few posts have offered to upset me. Yes you did have fun at my expense, however when I made a slightly off-color remark towards you, you stomped out of the thread and slammed its virtual door in similar fashion as my 8-year old, vowing never to return again. You whined that i did not give your comments much thought even though you stayed up later than you otherwise would have to post them i apologized and addressed your comments and hypothetical scenario Then you waited like a hawk to lay out your don't dish it if you can't take it comment. I've shown you much more respect than you've shown me, however that has little to do with you and moreso to do with my upbringing and overall character.

That said, this is somewhat a double-edged sword, isn't it? On one hand there are those that argue for rights or civil liberties, and on the other there are those that want to be protected from those that would do us harm. Not surprisingly, it seems to have turned into two opposing camps, each feeling they are more correct than the other.

Personally, I want to make sure both my rights and safety are protected. As someone that has experienced a misuse of power by a LEO, and not being in a financial position to defend myself, thereby suffering the consequences, and has known someone killed by an impaired driver, I can see both arguments to a degree. You've already stated your solution might include a similar practice involving the company you pay a membership to to bring you and your car home, but you also acknowledged that in short order, the resources of that company will likely be maxed at best. What then? Aren't there already taxi cabs in existence that are available? I suggested stiffer penalties for offenders, however that was glossed over like I was speaking to a box of rocks.

It seems to me that we all want protection from others, but some feel we should be forced to give up rights or civil liberties, regardless how small for the greater good and to reduce the inconvenience of others. (I'm wondering if that camp also whines when the person at the grocery store pays with a check that they wait to write until they reach the checkout line) Isnt that what the war on drugs was promised to do - benefit the greater good even though it continues to cost this country billions of dollars each year without much progress? Or the Patriot Act after what many Americans believe to be a false flag event (9/11)?

Surprise me BFAD, reverse the trend you've started with your last half dozen posts. Convince me your intellect remains in there somewhere behind the pouting facade.

Ah, finally, you prove me right again. You can't even get the timeline straight, and this is YOUR thread.

Please refer to my prior post w/the quote about arguing with a fool.
 
The dirty secret is that virtually all of us share a huge citizen failing and blind spot regarding our knowledge of the U.S. Constitution and the necessary historical knowledge to put it in proper context.

What information could possibly be more fundamental and necessary to laying claim to being a good citizen? Even the ability to recite it from start to finish would be woefully inadequate absent historical information necessary for context and understanding, yet few of us can even do that. Still, we march to the voting booth to participate in national elections confident we're armed with enough knowledge, meanwhile huge amounts of recent, ongoing work outlining a long list of human biases and cognitive errors suggests the likely reason for our choice is something basic, probably irrelevant, to which we attach explanations to make a coherent story.

Now, if that's not a thread stopper, I don't know what is.
 
As you stated, we are both talking to a wall, however, and don't let this be a feather in your hat, but I shall not continue this d1ck measuring contest with you further. You and I both hurled insults. We bot ignored well though out responses and yet chose to focus on a tiny aspect in which we don't agree. Yet youve reached the limit of productive responses and have elevated yourself on a pedestal and claimed nobility. I choose to be the bigger man here. Like Thai, neither of us it would seem are going to relent to the other.
 
The dirty secret is that virtually all of us share a huge citizen failing and blind spot regarding our knowledge of the U.S. Constitution and the necessary historical knowledge to put it in proper context.

What information could possibly be more fundamental and necessary to laying claim to being a good citizen? Even the ability to recite it from start to finish would be woefully inadequate absent historical information necessary for context and understanding, yet few of us can even do that. Still, we march to the voting booth to participate in national elections confident we're armed with enough knowledge, meanwhile huge amounts of recent, ongoing work outlining a long list of human biases and cognitive errors suggests the likely reason for our choice is something basic, probably irrelevant, to which we attach explanations to make a coherent story.

Now, if that's not a thread stopper, I don't know what is.

Painfully true JB. Thanks for posting in an otherwise ego context / train wreck. Voting is the minimum we should do, however most people cannot be bothered to even do that. Turnouts at the polls are embarrassing at best. How many people posting in this thread alone can rattle off the amendments to the constitution and the summary of what they provide? How many people can recite the preamble to the constitution? How many people can list who the president and vice president are? I remember seeing a video on here somewhere within the the last 2-3 weeks where a group of high school students couldn't recite basic historical facts. It's appaling to think these individuals will be running this country when you and I Are in our elderly years (if we are so lucky).
 
The title of this thread should be:
"A lesson in how to be a bunghole"

If you choose not to answer the cop's simple question, he could gather evidence by asking for your identification and insurance. If you're impaired and fumble with your licence or insurance, etc......you're not doing any better than refusing the question.

Basically the guy in the video's little game of "am I detained?" makes him look like a whiner an that's about it.

I'm not a US citizen but IMO road blocks are unconstitutional in nature; however, have been allowed due to the higher priority of public safety. That's how it is in Canada anyway.

In summary, being an arse roadside and further delaying the cars behind you is not the way to change something you think is unconstitutional.

JUST-my-opinion
 
Maybe it's mentioned somewhere in this thread, but I couldn't find it. How exactly are these checkpoints unconstitutional? Randomly checking for drunk drivers is a bad thing?
 
Basically because you are being questioned and detained where there are no reasonable grounds for police to believe that you have committed a criminal offence.

Think about it like this: you are walking down the street and all of a sudden there is a huge lineup and people are being stopped by police and asked "have you stolen anything today?" and if anyone tries to leave they cannot.

One could argue though that driving is a privelege not a right and therefore the police have the right to check to make sure you have a valid licence at a roadblock......but... in a drinking driving roadblock it's different, they are questioning you about a possible criminal code offence.

This is a great thread and there are no easy answers.

Now, if in a roadblock you are questioned "sir do you have any drugs or stolen property in our car?"
As far as I am concerned, this is totally unreasonable detention as it is not related to safe driving, the premise behind these roadblocks.
Because the detention should be driving related.

It would almost be preferred if these roadblocks were called "drivers licence and registration checkpoints"
and if there happen to be signs of impairment, then take the investigation in that direction.

On a different topic I have watched YouTube videos on immigration checkpoints in your country. As far as I'm concerned those are a TOTAL violation of basic rights and freedoms. That is where the danger lies of a "police state"
 
I posted it up earlier. Administrative Checkpoints are NOT unconstituional. This is well settled law.

You have a right to not like them. You have the right to lobby your local government not to do them. You have the right to put it on a local state initiative ballot for a vote. And you have the right to even protest about it. What you don't have a right to do is act like douche like the guy in the video.

All he had to do is clearly state his belief (albeit an incorrect one) that he feels an administrative DUI checkpoint is a violation of his 4th amendment right for the people to be free from unreasonable search seizure. Had he done that they would let his go about his merry way. Why? B/c he spoke enough to accomplish the goal w/out acting like a goofball and not answering a simple question with a question or dumb ass remark. Which by the way makes it seem like he's on drugs or something.
 
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I posted it up earlier. Administrative Checkpoints are NOT unconstituional. This is well settled law.

You have a right to not like them. You have the right to lobby your local government not to do them. You have the right to put it on a local state initiative ballot for a vote. And you have the right to even protest about it. What you don't have a right to do is act like douche like the guy in the video.

All he had to do is clearly state his belief (albeit an incorrect one) that he feels an administrative DUI checkpoint is a violation of his 5th amendment right for the people to be free from unreasonable search seizure. Had he done that they would let his go about his merry way. Why? B/c he spoke enough to accomplish the goal w/out acting like a goofball and not answering a simple question with a question or dumb ass remark. Which by the way makes it seem like he's on drugs or something.

How does Miranda come into play here - isn't there a right to remain silent? Is this exchange considered an interrogation seeing that he cannot leave without the officer's consent?
 
How does Miranda come into play here - isn't there a right to remain silent? Is this exchange considered an interrogation seeing that he cannot leave without the officer's consent?

Given your strong 'end of the world' stance on this, please, tell me what is next? Meaning...if these abominable actions the police are doing are allowed to continue what do you fear (while sitting in your bunker?) will be next?

If you think for one minute that this is a 'slippery slope', IMO, you are crazy. They are not going to be stopping you walking down the street looking for stolen goods, ever. This is purely a 'public safety' action (and if they happen to bust any other people breaking the law all the better).

Fighting this is just as bad as the people crying about drug dogs searching (smelling) public lockers at public schools (oh lookie, new topic...go!).
 
This is a great thread, but I'm just thinking that the cops may have acted differently if there was no camera or they had not seen the camera. Also if he either sounded, appeared or smell'd drunk there's no way they would let him go through.
 
This is a great thread, but I'm just thinking that the cops may have acted differently if there was no camera or they had not seen the camera. Also if he either sounded, appeared or smell'd drunk there's no way they would let him go through.

Agree with everything you've stated. The camera played a much larger role than anyone has given credit. This guy exercised what many believe to be his rights and the officers were able to confirm he was not impaired.
 
Curios regarding your thoughts on this piece of proposed legislation. Is it ok to conduct surveillance on EVERY American in an effort to "catch child pornographers"? Remember, this is promised to be for the greater good.

From Lamar Smith, the same author/legislator that introduced SOPA and PIPA....

SOPA replacement uses child porn as excuse to spy on 99.7 percent of Americans | ITworld

SOPA replacement uses child porn as excuse to spy on 99.7 percent of Americans

SOPA author Lamar Smith pushing bill to make web sites track every user's every move

By Kevin Fogarty

February 20, 2012, 3:37 PM — The SOPA and PIPA bills that went down in flames earlier this year for their unbearable intrusiveness, used content piracy as an excuse to give the government powerful tools with which to censor Internet content.

For 2012 the primary author of those bills has switched to a fallback tactic: using child porn as an excuse to create a vast surveillance network from which the government can demand data on every email sent, site visited or link clicked on by all but a fraction of one percent of the U.S. population.

Internet anti-censorship advocates including Anonymous are calling for the ouster of Texas Congressman Lamar Smith, who is following his co-sponsorship of the failed Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) with a bill critics call "Big Brother" disguised as an effort to curb child porn and sexual abuse.

Last May Smith, a Texas Republican credited as primary author of both SOPA and PIPA, the Senate version, also introduced H.R. 1981, a bill called the "Protecting Children From Internet Pornographers Act of 2011″ (PCFIPA).

The anti-child-porn provisions in the bill are a "fig leaf for its true purpose: A sweeping data retention requirement meant to turn Internet Service Providers and online companies into surrogate snoops for the government’s convenience," according to Julian Sanchez, Internet privacy and censorship researcherat the center-right Cato Institute.

Smoke and mirrors concealing observers watching you from behind the smoky mirrors

The bill amends existing laws empowering the U.S. Marshals Service to issue subpoenas and chase fugitives.

The amendments expand the Marshals' ability to issue subpoenas and adds online pornographers to their list of top targets.

The important, though administrivia-looking part of the bill is this: "A provider of an electronic communication service... shall retain for a period of at least 18 months the temporarily assigned network addresses the service assigns to each account... records retained pursuant to section 2703(h) of title 18, United States Code..." – FCPIFA, H.R. 1981

ISPs are already required to keep some customers' activity records for 180 days, so this doesn't look like a big change.

Except, PCFIPA, HR 1981, requires ISPs keep track of every single IP address they assign (except to wireless users) and all the activity flowing across that link.

It doesn't limit itself to just ISPs, either. By addressing the bill to cover any company providing "electronic communications" or "remote computing" services, the bill effectively covers any site offering services online.

PCFIPA, HR 1981, reverses that point of view (as did PIPA and SOPA), to create a vast database of every action of ever American online – a deep pool of data on the activity of millions of Internet users, through whose private activity they can sift at will until they find something that looks like evidence of a crime.

That's exactly the opposite of the intent of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. The Fourth Amendment prevents police from searching, questioning, holding or otherwise harassing suspects unless a judge agrees there's a good reason to investigate a specific person for a specific crime.

Going beyond child pornographers to treat everyone like a criminal

Accusations that PCFIPA is a universal surveillance bill in disguise cite two specific problems with the bill:

The first is language in the existing federal law, which requires ISPs to provide, under warrant: all of a customer's Internet activity, including email, web browsing, downloads, IM, social networking and anything else done across the public Internet; the customer's name address, phone number and IP address;

a list of all local and long distance phone calls;

a list of all electronic communications;

means of payment – all credit-card, bank account or other method the customer used to pay;

silence – ISPs under warrant or subpoena to give up private records aren't allowed to alert the customer.

The second is the phrase "unregistered sex offenders" and the power it gives the U.S. Marshals Service to issue its own subpoenas to investigate 99.762 percent of the U.S. population.

By addressing "unregistered sex offenders," Lamar Smith's PCFIPA expands its powers of comprehensive surveillance over everyone in the U.S. who has not already been convicted of a sex crime.

According to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's Map of Registered Sex Offenders (PDF) there are about 748,000 registered sex offenders in the United States and territories.

That's an average of 238 offenders per 100,000 who are not sex offenders –approximately .238 percent of the total U.S. population.

Since it is empowering U.S. Marshals to investigate people who have not yet been convicted, under PCFIPA, the only thing required to get a valid subpoena to examine all the online activity 99.762 percent of the U.S. population, is an investigating officer willing to say the subpoena has something to do with investigation of online child porn.

They don't even have to accuse a specific person or limit themselves to a specific geographic area. Geographically surveillance targets have to be within 500 miles of a specific target of investigation.

Online the bill allows for usage connections – anyone you called, who called you, any sites you may have visited or spammers who might have sent you email.

Not only are you a criminal; every web site you ever visit has to collect 'evidence' on you

The requirement that ISPs and essentially every site on the Internet keep 18 months worth of records on every visitor would create a complete record of every site visited, every email sent, every link clicked on by every resident of the U.S. and its territories – a vast and comprehensive database of everything any American does online, into which curious cops can dip almost at will, whether they have a good reason to do so or not.

"The data retention mandate in this bill would treat every Internet user like a criminal and threaten the online privacy and free speech rights of every American," according to Kevin Bankston, an attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation. "Requiring Internet companies to redesign and reconfigure their systems to facilitate government surveillance of Americans' expressive activities is simply un-American."

“The bill is mislabeled,” Rep. John Conyers (D-MI) told CNET in July, when PCFIPA went through brief review in the House judicial committee. “This is not protecting children from Internet pornography. It’s creating a database for everybody in this country for a lot of other purposes.”

Smith argued in committee that the bill involved investigation only of those suspected of the sexual abuse of children.

No so, countered the ACLU, which argued it would actually impact "hundreds of millions of individuals who have no connection to the sexual exploitation of children whatsoever. ..There is nothing in the bill that would limit the use of these records to child exploitation cases," countered the American Civil Liberties Union, which sent a letter carrying protests from it and 29 other civil rights groups to Smith last summer, without result.

"In fact, the records would involve all internet users everywhere and they would be available to law enforcement for any purpose. This new mandate is a direct assault on the privacy of internet users," the letter said.

So what's the upshot?

There is no conclusion to this story yet.

PCFIPA, H.R. 1981, is on the House legislative calendar to be debated, changed, approved or denied sometime during the coming year.

Oddsmakers rate its chances as good, considering it sailed through committee by a vote of 19 to 10.

SOPA and PIPA had similarly good odds before being brought down in flames.

PCFIPA, HR 1981, should have much worse chances, considering that powers it grants are much more sweeping than those of either Internet censorship bill and that it adds a huge burden to both ISPs and anyone providing content or software services across the web.

Together the constituency opposing PCFIPA should be at least as large as that opposing SOPA and PIPA.

Opposing those two bills took a lot of effort and unity among independent-minded Internet users.

Both unity and the ability to project opposition appear to have dissipated in the weeks since.

Especially given the effort of Lamar Smith and his backers to conceal unconstitutional powers of surveillance and censorship behind child pornographer straw men, it's entirely possible HR 1981 will come up for a vote without nearly as much outcry for the 'net.

If that happens, all the complaining about privacy done by anyone online until now will be moot. PCFIPA requires your ISP to keep track of what you do when it can see you and requires other sites to keep records of what you do when it can't.

By comparison, losing your email password to a keylogger or having your iPhone give away your location data are small potatoes.

Lamar Smith wants to know more than a password or location. He wants to know what sites you click on, what spam you get, what sites you visit that you delete from your history cache so no one else can see them.

Lamar Smith wants to know who you email, who you text and what links you click on in blogs complaining about his irrational, insatiable need to spy on Americans who have done nothing wrong and nothing to arouse suspicion that they have.

Lamar Smith doesn't believe in innocent until proven guilty. Lamar Smith doesn't believe in innocent at all.

He only believes in "unregistered offenders" – meaning "those who haven't been caught yet.

Give Lamar Smith his way and every site on the Internet will have to keep records to turn over to Lamar and his cronies, so people who don't like you can sift through everything you do, looking for something you've done wrong.

Putting unconstitutional limits on the freedom of 99.7 percent of Americans is a fair exchange for a law that might give cops a slightly greater advantage in chasing the .238 percent of Americans who may actually be involved in child pornography.

Doesn't it?
 
Curios regarding your thoughts on this piece of proposed legislation. Is it ok to conduct surveillance on EVERY American in an effort to "catch child pornographers"? Remember, this is promised to be for the greater good.

I still stand behind the simple idea of...if you have nothing to hide than you have nothing to worry about. What are you doing on the internet that you would not want the public to know about?! If you are doing things that you would be embarrassed about if they went public, well maybe you should not be doing them....just a (moral) thought for the day.

Just think, if they are proposing these ideas publicly, imagine what the CIA type groups are actually doing?!?!?!

You might want to think about moving if all this legislation passes....I found a great place you might like....

Worlds-End-Final-2.jpg


:infidel:
 
How does Miranda come into play here - isn't there a right to remain silent? Is this exchange considered an interrogation seeing that he cannot leave without the officer's consent?

It doesn't come into play at all. DUI checkpoints are an exception to the rule re: search and seizure. The 4th amdnedment says: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

Long ago the supreme court ruled that random administrative checkpoints are not an unreasonable search and seizure if they are administered reasonably and properly under the law.

Some states make them illegal under thier own state laws or thier own state constitution, but on a federal level they are NOT unconstitutional.
 
This is a decent background read:

Random checkpoint - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Driving under the Influence of alcohol is a special type of crime, as driving with a blood alcohol content (BAC) over a set limit is defined as the crime; it is not necessary to drive recklessly or cause an accident in order to be convicted. To determine BAC accurately, it is generally necessary for the driver to subject themselves to tests that are self incriminating, and drivers sometimes exercise their right against self incrimination to refuse these tests. To discourage this, some jurisdictions set the legal penalties for refusing a BAC test to equal or worse than those for a failing a BAC test. In other jurisdictions, the legal system may consider refusing the roadside alcohol breath test to be probable cause, allowing police to arrest the driver and conduct an involuntary BAC test. The Michigan Supreme Court had found sobriety roadblocks to be a violation of the Fourth Amendment. However, by a 6-3 decision in Michigan Dept. of State Police v. Sitz (1990), the United States Supreme Court found properly conducted sobriety checkpoints to be constitutional. While acknowledging that such checkpoints infringed on a constitutional right, Chief Justice Rehnquist argued the state interest in reducing drunk driving outweighed this minor infringement.

Dissenting justices argued that the Constitution doesn’t provide exceptions. "That stopping every car might make it easier to prevent drunken driving...is an insufficient justification for abandoning the requirement of individualized suspicion", dissenting Justice Brennan insisted.

Chief Justice Rehnquist argued that an exception was justified because sobriety roadblocks were effective and necessary. On the other hand, dissenting Justice Stevens countered that "the findings of the trial court, based on an extensive record and affirmed by the Michigan Court of Appeals, indicate that the net effect of sobriety checkpoints on traffic safety is infinitesimal and possibly negative."

Jurisdictions that allow sobriety checkpoints often carve out specific exceptions to their normal civil protections, in order to allow sobriety checkpoints. Although the U.S. Supreme Court has found sobriety checkpoints to be constitutionally permissible, ten states (Idaho, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Oregon, Rhode Island, Texas, Washington, Wisconsin, and Wyoming) have found that sobriety roadblocks violate their own state constitutions or have outlawed them. Two other states (Alaska and Montana) do not use checkpoints even though they have not made them illegal."
 
Being a bunghole in the checkpoint lineup can be compared to delaying the Starbucks lineup and complaining to the cashier "why is the coffee so expensive"
 
How does one feel "detained" at a DUI checkpoint? You're in your car, and you're asked a simple question. They don't ask for your ID or registration (unless of course you're acting suspicious). You're not taken out of your car, placed in an interrogation room and asked to tell them every detail about your day. Like I said before, if you haven't been drinking then what is there to hide? If you have been drinking, don't drive and you won't have any issues.
 

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