A possible solution to leaking axle seals

[Drcoffee]

that seems very odd to me.
that retainer should be pressed up against the tone ring/bearing. there shouldnt be a gap there. its meant to KEEP the bearing in place, and also for the seal to...seal against.

if what you did fixed a leaking problem, i would say its only a bandaid, and not a real solution.

there is no way here at the shop, that we would send out a rig, or an axle, without the retainer fully pressed into postion.

Not True. There is an outer retainer with a C-clip that holds the bearings in place. Then there is a gap to the ABS ring and another gap to the inner retainer.

 

[nevada]

ah. thanks for clearing that up. i havent torn into one of those yet, and the other pics you had, only showed the inner retainer.

this may be a good fix after all.
job well done.:bravo:


edit: the inner retainer IS in a few of the pics. i just wasnt paying attention.

 

[Drcoffee]

I am keeping a running log of results for this repair in the first post. So far I am leak free nearly 7000 miles later.

To help some people better visualize the problem I have posted a cut-away view of the new OEM seal.

If you follow the FSM as they describe the "correct" placement, your sealing lip will be lucky to contact the non-polished bevel of the retainer as seen in this picture. Notice where the outer lip of the seal is positioned. That lip will leave a ring on the retainer leading you to believe your seal is in the center when in fact its not sealing at all.

If and I mean if you could insert the retainer all the way into the seal, this picture shows the best you can expect is to be just on the edge of the polished shoulder of the retainer. The reason I say IF, is because the retainer will rub the axle housing if you set it that deep into the seal. Its not possible to obtain this placement. For reference you can view this thread where its been tried. Travails and final fix (I hope)

Following my direction, you can get the sealing lip of the seal right into the center of the polished shoulder of the retainer where it was intended to be for a correct seal.

 

[BigFishAllDay]

Some facts for the record:

At 159,533 miles I replaced my axle seals per the FSM (like I demonstrated in my write-up), using the factory engineered placement of all components, and had the press work done by an independent Toyota shop that knows that they are doing.

My 4Runner currently has 193,470 miles.

That's 33,937 miles with no leaks... compared to the 7,000 leak free miles demonstrated here.

I bought the vehicle with 101,000 miles, and there were no leaks between the time I purchased it an 159K.

The factory method works. Period. It's all a matter of the accuracy of the press work and following instructions for re-assembly.

:grouphug:

 

[Drcoffee]

Some facts for the record:

At 159,533 miles I replaced my axle seals per the FSM (like I demonstrated in my write-up), using the factory engineered placement of all components, and had the press work done by an independent Toyota shop that knows that they are doing.

My 4Runner currently has 193,470 miles.

That's 33,937 miles with no leaks... compared to the 7,000 leak free miles demonstrated here.

I bought the vehicle with 101,000 miles, and there were no leaks between the time I purchased it an 159K.

The factory method works. Period. It's all a matter of the accuracy of the press work and following instructions for re-assembly.

:grouphug:

Wow it was you who asked me to stay off your threads. And now you blast into mine. I guess your ego just couldn't resist today.

So Prove it. Pull the ABS sensor and look inside. Otherwise its just a matter of time before your lube migrates from the axle housing to the brakes.
Edit: still has yet to prove he is not leaking 2/20/2015

 

[BigFishAllDay]

I just wanted to add some factual first hand experience to your thread. That way people reading this thread know that there's a possible solution, and a proven solution.

BTW, ego doesn't enter the picture here. 66,000 clicks versus 3,000 clicks says the proven solution is the preferred method of solving this problem.

That's not to say that you don't have a possible solution here. It's definitely possible. Anything is possible. Sky's the limit.

 

[Drcoffee]

I just wanted to add some factual first hand experience to your thread. That way people reading this thread know that there's a possible solution, and a proven solution.

BTW, ego doesn't enter the picture here. 66,000 clicks versus 3,000 clicks says the proven solution is the preferred method of solving this problem.

That's not to say that you don't have a possible solution here. It's definitely possible. Anything is possible. Sky's the limit.

Most people who are reading my thread have already reviewed your write up and still have leaks. Kind of like myself who followed your write up to the T with your factual firsthand experience (yet unwilling to prove it by physically checking it). Mine leaked the first time, the second time, the third tme and finally sealed up on the forth and final time. 66k or 3k clicks, both are impressive in the realm of these threads. Sorry but your ego is just incapable of restraint. Please leave my thread. You have plenty of topics I can disrupt.

:hug:

 

[Tucson Mike]

I followed Dr. Coffee's advice and reversed the retainer as well. I checked where the new seal was riding on the old retainer before decided which method to go with. If I didn't reverse the retainer, the seal was just too close to that bevel and I didn't feel confident it would seal. I have only 2,000 miles on it since I've done the repair, but no leaks so far. I am removing the abs sensor to check.

 

[BigFishAllDay]

Most people who are reading my thread have already reviewed your write up and still have leaks.

And what are the chances that their press work was done incorrectly? Very high, considering the tolerances involved in this job.

You're a funny man, Coffee. Always the troll, trying to poke at me with your "ego" stick. I'll gladly take a peek for you the next time I'm under the truck. After our last set of PM's I checked my '97 and I was good to go, no leaks. I'll check again and get a picture for you next time I'm under there.

Here's the bottom line... even if a minute amount of gear oil makes it past the seal using the factory method, enough to say for instance, wet the ABS tone ring between the teeth.... that does not constitute a failed axle seal, IMO. That doesn't even constitute a need for concern. The ONLY time that it becomes a problem is when a high-volume leak develops. That is when you see gear oil pouring out of your brake drums, necessitating a seal replacement. If I end up with a couple mL of gear oil getting past the seal over 100K miles, I could care less.

And if you feel the need to stir something up in one of my threads, feel free. I can handle your comments now, just as I have in the past. I think if you'll put all of your emotion aside and just review my posts, you'll see that I'm simply providing a counterpoint here, not trying to insult you or discredit you. Much the same as you wanted people to be aware of your "new and improved" method, I would like those who happen to find your thread first to realize that there are other options, and become fully educated before deciding.

 

[Drcoffee]

Here's the bottom line... even if a minute amount of gear oil makes it past the seal using the factory method, enough to say for instance, wet the ABS tone ring between the teeth.... that does not constitute a failed axle seal, IMO. That doesn't even constitute a need for concern. The ONLY time that it becomes a problem is when a high-volume leak develops. That is when you see gear oil pouring out of your brake drums, necessitating a seal replacement. If I end up with a couple mL of gear oil getting past the seal over 100K miles, I could care less.

Interesting! So long as you say its acceptable, a failed oil seal is okay. Well some of us dont think so. You say your method is superior yet you admit it will leak. What I am trying to do here is provide a method that wont leak at all. I'd rather not wait until the oil is on the brakes to prove the seal has failed. And to put a finer point on your partial leak allowance, gear oil in the bearings is a BAD THING. So even a small amount of leakage is not acceptable to me.

 

[BigFishAllDay]

Interesting! So long as you say its acceptable, a failed oil seal is okay. Well some of us dont think so. You say your method is superior yet you admit it will leak. What I am trying to do here is provide a method that wont leak at all. I'd rather not wait until the oil is on the brakes to prove the seal has failed. And to put a finer point on your partial leak allowance, gear oil in the bearings is a BAD THING. So even a small amount of leakage is not acceptable to me.

Don't twist words, now. What I'm saying, not admitting as this is not a trial, is that it might leak. You should do the same, considering that your proposed method has not been proven 100% leak free over any significant duration, nor over any significant sample size.

Gear oil in the bearings is a bad thing, IF there is enough of it in the bearings to wash out the grease that lubricates the bearings. A couple mL of gear oil is not enough to do so.

I'll tell you what... if you're still around when you've got 100K miles on your seals and can say that they are still 100% leak free, I mean BONE DRY, I'll consider using your method for my own axle seals. Until then, I'll stick with what the manufacturer of my vehicle recommends as far as the service procedure for this repair.

 

[BrianSD_42]

DrCoffee,

A)
How many times (of the 3 replacements) did you use all OEM Toyota parts?
I have seen your posts before and you don't always use Toyota parts.
Isn't it possible that your use of some non-OEM parts is a big part of why the seals eventually leak.

B)
My original seals lasted 150k miles. When they needed replacing I had the alex diameter MIC'd on both sides to ensure they were still within spec before doing the replacement.
Have you confirmed your axel is within spec?

C)
Also, you can expect pushback when you post a thread saying the FSM and Toyota way is wrong but you've come up with a better way. Even if you are right, you know that people are going to call you out and criticizing you is completely fair.

D) I think sometimes even when using OEM parts, shops still press the axel incorrectly or install the seal incorrectly. I had my first seals replaced in 2006 or 2007 by the Toyota dealership in San Diego. Then about 15 months later they were leaking again. I went back and they replaced them again, still using the OEM method and this time they didn't leak. It has been about 6 years now and no leakage. I later found out that dealerships often outsource part of the work (eg. the pressing) to different local shops; mistakes can happen.


:beer:


I really think BFAD's thread should be listed as a source (since you clearly read it) for others to read and compare. All: Read both threads, nothing wrong with that.

Reference: Anyone reading this who hasn't seen the Toyota FSM process click here ...
----> http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...e-information-replacement-thread-3rd-gen.html

:cheers:

 

[Drcoffee]

DrCoffee,

How many times (of the 3 replacements) did you use all OEM Toyota parts?

I have seen your posts before and you don't always use Toyota parts.

Isn't it possible that your use of non-OEM parts is a big part of why the seals eventually leak.

My original seals lasted 150k miles. When they needed replacing I had the alex diameter MIC'd on both sides to ensure they were still within spec before doing the replacement.

Have you confirmed your axel is within spec?

Also, you can expect pushback when you post a thread saying the FSM and Toyota way is wrong but you've come up with a better way. Even if you are right, you know that people are going to call you out and criticizing you is completely fair.

:ballchain:

First time OEM
Second time OEM
Third time. timken
Forth time OEM

Make no mistake. I expected pushback by the "resident experts" but I also expected them to be open minded when presented with evidence and results. That was my miscalculation. Like I said in my very first post, I am not telling anyone to do this. I am only offering it up as a solution for those who have used the "preferred method" per the FSM. The threads are countless of members who could not get the seals to seal, then replaced the axles and then the whole axle assembly to the tune of thousands of dollars. When I have discussed this with a few mechanics, they say, yep they do it that way as well. I may not be to one to unlock the mysteries of the world, but I am the one to make this little secret public knowledge.

Do as you please. As I always say, Its your truck, do what you want. I am just trying to help some frustrated T4r owners get to the heart of the problem without getting the gratuitous personal attacks. Another miscalculation.

Look, if you dont agree with me, go start another thread with your own ideas. But to come here and say its wrong without any thought or proof other than the FSM, written long before the TSB was issued in 2003 regarding the seal change is dopey.

IMO BFD's write up gets you 95% of the way there. Kudos to the time he put forth. But it fails in the final step of getting the seal to seat on the retainer. Has he measured the seal and retainer depth? I found no mention of it. I did however, measure it. And the FSM is off the mark.

 

[BrianSD_42]

It would be nice to hear from someone who runs a mechanic shop or works at a dealer as shop foreman.

Although I believe that some people have seal failures within a year of doing the replacement and have to do it all over again, what we don't know is if their truck is somehow out-of-spec or if the install was simply botched.

I think that if the Toyota way failed as often you suggest then most shops would see customers returning again and again for warranty work. As I understand it, nearly ALL 4Runner need axel seals replaced before 175k miles SO this repair is done very very often at Toyota shops.

 

[BigFishAllDay]

Make no mistake. I expected pushback by the "resident experts" but I also expected them to be open minded when presented with evidence and results.

You can consider me open minded, and like I said, once I see some significant evidence and results I might even consider employing your idea.

7,000 miles doesn't really add up to evidence and results. At best, it is the intial trial period of an experiment, considering that there are tens of thousands of people who have put 100K+ miles on the factory setup with no leaks, and no problems. That, Coffee, is evidence and results.

You are correct, I did not take measurements as to where the various parts were pressed onto the axle shaft. I left that work to a trusted and competent Toyota shop, and they performed the work flawlessly. I give you credit for trying something new, but let's face it, this is not groundbreaking stuff. You took some measurements and flipped the retainer 180 degrees. We (I) will be eagerly awaiting your 25K, 50K, 75K, and 100K mile evidence and results.

 

[curtperry]

I think one thing we can agree on is that the seal should not be riding on the bevel if we want it to last, or even work. Personally I'd probably be happy if it clears the bevel by .5mm or so.

Thanks to Dr.Coffee, I will pay extra attention to the position of the seal on its mating surface if I ever have to tackle this job. Thanks also to BFAD for his excellent write up.

 

[Drcoffee]

Although I believe that some people have seal failures within a year of doing the replacement and have to do it all over again, what we don't know is if their truck is somehow out-of-spec or if the install was simply botched.

Look, isnt the story always "your axle must be bent" when the shop cant get the seals to hold? Right? How many runner owners would know the difference? How many people have sold their trucks because of the failed axle seals and just gave up? And do we really believe that our axle are so easily bent as the shops would have us believe. The most durable truck on the market has the most fragile axles. Yea right!

I just posted a cut away of the seals. You can clearly see where the lip sits. Yet I get pushback. If I had a spare axle housing I would do a cut away of that as well but I dont. So its time you do a little work to prove me wrong instead of attacking me. And to BFD, what makes you think I need your blessing on any of this? I just asked you to Go Away. Please dont come back.

It would be nice to hear from someone who runs a mechanic shop or works at a dealer as shop foreman.

The good shops have known this problem exists and because of the likelihood that any shade tree mechanic who probably wont measure their parts will have a failed repair, why would they make it public? They essentially become the expert in their town with a monopoly on the repair. Put it this way. If my income depended on getting $1200 for 45 minute repair, you can be damn sure I wouldnt be here telling everyone about it. You wont get any toyota mechanics to chime in here for two reasons. First, they would have to admit there is a problem which would be bad for their employer. Second, it would take food out of their mouth.

Actually, I remember a shop foreman from a Toyota shop that did say they had issues and they would have to seat the seal less deep just to get it onto the retainer. I quoted him in BFDs thread. I will track it down and repost it.
Edit: found the thread.

rear-axel-seal-leaking-3rd-gen-4runner
Quote: "Its been a while since I worked at the dealer, but when I was there we replaced axle seals on almost every Sequoia and 4runner in our area. The inner seal would leak and the rear shoes would become saturated in gear oil. Worst I have seen was a locked up wheel because of the brakes swelling up due to saturated linings. Finally Tech support started helping us out a little by asking us not to install new seals flush against the inner axle housing. We were told the seal itself was not at fault, but the metal ring which resides behind the ABS ring was not properly placed on the axle itself. Engineering flaw. The outer ring on the axle is what the seal rides against. We would apply a light coat of white lithum grease to the axle ring and reinstall the axle into the housing then spin the axle one or two times. Then carefully removing the axle you could see where the seal had been riding on the axle ring, if at all. We would take a measurement with a dial caliper of where the seal was originally and where it needed to be. Removed the old seal and replaced the new one further forward from the old seal by the measurment taken. Sounds like a pain and it was, hopefully they have modified the seal to correct the problem, but if not try to do this if your truck is out of warranty.

This is only in reference to 3rd gens. Like I said it's been years, going on four since I worked at the dealer. They may have a TSB out on a new seal design or axle ring. I just don't know. Someone on here I am sure works at a dealer now and can look into this or knows what I am talking about. But if your seal is leaking and its a 3rd gen then it will probably be affected like the rest of them. My dealer charged 3 hours a side to replace the seals, a half hour to R&R the diff fluid, 1.6 hours to replace the rear shoes and machine the drums plus the cost of the seals, fluid, shoes and brake cleaner. Not a cheap job when your out of warranty. Oh $89 per hour in NC. "

 

[Drcoffee]

7,000 miles doesn't really add up to evidence and results. At best, it is the intial trial period of an experiment, considering that there are tens of thousands of people who have put 100K+ miles on the factory setup with no leaks, and no problems. That, Coffee, is evidence and results.

You are correct, I did not take measurements as to where the various parts were pressed onto the axle shaft. s.

Its not just 3,000 views on this topic. its 3,000 here, 4,500 another forum and 3,500 on another forum and on and on.

7000 leak free miles compared to your 66,000 (Edit:33,937 miles) acceptable leaking miles, I like my results better. Enough said.

 

[BigFishAllDay]

Its not just 3,000 views on this topic. its 3,000 here, 4,500 another forum and 3,500 on another forum and on and on.

7000 leak free miles compared to your 66,000 acceptable leaking miles, i like my results better. Enough said.

To clarify, YOU assume those miles to be "leaking miles".

I can picture you at your keyboard, just steaming. You're not even reading my posts correctly. I have 33,937 miles since my seal job, with ZERO LEAKS as of the last time I looked. Like I said, I'll check again just for you, and I'll even post a picture in THIS thread.

 

[Drcoffee]

:ranger:
Steaming? No. The more you post the more visibility I get with this repair, the less cred you retain. I have done the measurements. I have posted objective pictures. I come to the table with a solution. You simply say I'm wrong and you have an old FSM to support your opinion. Whereas, I'm letting others come to their own conclusions. My truck is fixed. I can care less about yours.