Absalom's Cookie Cutter 4runner Builds - New and Updated!

[TCMach]

[*]I'm no longer a fan of the TBU after reported safety concerns of it interfering with the ABS system. The stock brakes, in good condition, are more than adequate for this truck - especially when keeping tires sized as described below.

Curious why you came to this conclusion when the previous poll that was done on the forum came up as 5 people out of 56 had a TBU with ABS issues.
I am super happy to see the retrofit headlights make this list. I'm gathering parts for this now and cant figure out why I waited so long. Stock headlight performance is dismal bordering on dangerous, especially if you drive mountain passes in the dark.

I sure AF don't recommend the TBU. Never saw the results that everyone hyped. Just adjust your rear drums people! Even the base 15" wheel brakes are totally adequate. Just my opinion from trying to maintain a 3rd gen's relevance in keeping up with modern traffic.

Adequate for what? A stockish truck? Just trying to figure out where you are going with this. My own experience with stock front brakes (new pads & rotors) and rebuilt rear drums wasn't even close to my current braking power with the TBU. YMMV and my vehicle isn't even close to stock.

 

[Jidaran]

Curious why you came to this conclusion when the previous poll that was done on the forum came up as 5 people out of 56 had a TBU with ABS issues.

Same. IIRC, the ABS issues in that poll were solely relegated to those who had gone up to 231mm. No one had problems at 199mm.

Edit: Here's the link.

5 / 39 users had issues with ABS on the 231mm
0 / 13 users had issues with ABS on the 199mm

4 other people voted for "13WL/13WE Disabled ABS system and recommend this" (bringing the total number of participants to 56) but I think we can exclude them for our purposes, since there's no way of knowing whether they would have run into any ABS problems if it was enabled.

 

[TCMach]

Same. IIRC, the ABS issues in that poll were solely relegated to those who had gone up to 231mm. No one had problems at 199mm.

Edit: Here's the link.

5 / 39 users had issues with ABS on the 231mm
0 / 13 users had issues with ABS on the 199mm

4 other people voted for "13WL/13WE Disabled ABS system and recommend this" (bringing the total number of participants to 56) but I think we can exclude them for our purposes, since there's no way of knowing whether they would have run into any ABS problems if it was enabled.

I mean sure but the 199 is still a tundra brake. The posts above don't differentiate between 199/231 and specifically reference keeping stock brakes so the point still stands. We can make it 5 / 52 if you want to throw out those that disabled.

 

[absalom]

I mean sure but the 199 is still a tundra brake. The posts above don't differentiate between 199/231 and specifically reference keeping stock brakes so the point still stands. We can make it 5 / 52 if you want to throw out those that disabled.

Great feedback guys. I should perhaps explain that these "builds" are NOT aimed at the hardcore builder. Instead, these are aimed at the new or even seasoned owner who just doesn't want to spend a ton of time researching the various configurations and nuances associated with those modifications.

These builds are to make the average owner feel confident about the direction they want to take with their trucks. Now, they'll still end up with an amazing platform that they can adjust down the road as their needs and desires change.

Also, I placed a large emphasis on safety. There's no denying that lower CoG is safer, and that smaller tires react quicker. Many of these builders might have less experience off-road, and these builds take that into account. They aren't tame builds by any stretch of the definition, but instead just emphasize balance.

 

[Jidaran]

I mean sure but the 199 is still a tundra brake. The posts above don't differentiate between 199/231 and specifically reference keeping stock brakes so the point still stands. We can make it 5 / 52 if you want to throw out those that disabled.

Oh yeah, I was agreeing with you, just adding some numbers for the sake of clarity.

I've never done the TBU, but after a A LOT of reading it seems that (like absalom said) the stock brakes are fine as long as the rest of your truck is close to stock (with maybe some exceptions for those who drive steep mountain roads daily or pull heavy trailers). That said, it seems like all the ABS trouble associated with the upgrade are isolated to those who go for the 231mm calipers.

 

[JMat]

Same. IIRC, the ABS issues in that poll were solely relegated to those who had gone up to 231mm. No one had problems at 199mm.

Edit: Here's the link.

5 / 39 users had issues with ABS on the 231mm
0 / 13 users had issues with ABS on the 199mm

4 other people voted for "13WL/13WE Disabled ABS system and recommend this" (bringing the total number of participants to 56) but I think we can exclude them for our purposes, since there's no way of knowing whether they would have run into any ABS problems if it was enabled.

I didn't do the 231mm TBU and did the 199mm instead because of the ABS and soft pedal issue people spoke about. I couldn't be happier with the 199mm TBU... No ABS issues, no soft pedal and my 4Runner brakes better than ever with no fade. IMO the two TBU upgrades are very different and should therefore be treated as such.

 

[TCMach]

Great feedback guys. I should perhaps explain that these "builds" are NOT aimed at the hardcore builder. Instead, these are aimed at the new or even seasoned owner who just doesn't want to spend a ton of time researching the various configurations and nuances associated with those modifications.

These builds are to make the average owner feel confident about the direction they want to take with their trucks. Now, they'll still end up with an amazing platform that they can adjust down the road as their needs and desires change.

Also, I placed a large emphasis on safety. There's no denying that lower CoG is safer, and that smaller tires react quicker. Many of these builders might have less experience off-road, and these builds take that into account. They aren't tame builds by any stretch of the definition, but instead just emphasize balance.

I get that, no criticism on the build itself. I also get that a relatively stock build shouldn't need a TBU unless you drive mountain roads or tow or other out of the ordinary use (as noted in [MENTION=214515]Jidaran[/MENTION] 's post below). Just wondering why you no longer believe in it at all. While I have had no issues with my 231s I get that others have. But the 199s don't have that bad rap and would be an upgrade compared to stock so it still has merit even to the mild builder.

Oh yeah, I was agreeing with you, just adding some numbers for the sake of clarity.

I've never done the TBU, but after a A LOT of reading it seems that (like absalom said) the stock brakes are fine as long as the rest of your truck is close to stock (with maybe some exceptions for those who drive steep mountain roads daily or pull heavy trailers). That said, it seems like all the ABS trouble associated with the upgrade are isolated to those who go for the 231mm calipers.

Same page then. Like I said above I haven't had any issues with my 231s and the ABS system so thats my bias out there.

Regardless I don't think we (as a forum) should be advocating against something that could be beneficial to many. We can exclude 231s from that to be conservative but to advise against it altogether without some sort of evidence is a disservice on a thread meant in part to educate new users. Even the stuff that came from Sonoran didn't advocate against the 199s. None of us (that i know of) work for the NHTSA but people will look at this thread for guidance.

EDIT: I suppose I should say its your thread and your opinion on builds. I'm not here to change your mind if you think the TBU is dangerous or not worth it etc. I just disagree with the blanket statement that TBU = ABS issues

 

[absalom]

I get that, no criticism on the build itself. I also get that a relatively stock build shouldn't need a TBU unless you drive mountain roads or tow or other out of the ordinary use (as noted in [MENTION=214515]Jidaran[/MENTION] 's post below). Just wondering why you no longer believe in it at all. While I have had no issues with my 231s I get that others have. But the 199s don't have that bad rap and would be an upgrade compared to stock so it still has merit even to the mild builder.



Same page then. Like I said above I haven't had any issues with my 231s and the ABS system so thats my bias out there.

Regardless I don't think we (as a forum) should be advocating against something that could be beneficial to many. We can exclude 231s from that to be conservative but to advise against it altogether without some sort of evidence is a disservice on a thread meant in part to educate new users. Even the stuff that came from Sonoran didn't advocate against the 199s. None of us (that i know of) work for the NHTSA but people will look at this thread for guidance.

EDIT: I suppose I should say its your thread and your opinion on builds. I'm not here to change your mind if you think the TBU is dangerous or not worth it etc. I just disagree with the blanket statement that TBU = ABS issues

I should have clarified when I said TBUs that I mean the 231s specifically.

However, while the TBU in general might generate more braking force, or dissipate more heat faster, I don’t want new users or anyone to be under the impression that the stock brakes are bad. When I was diagnosing an unrelated ABS issue awhile back, I had pulled the ABS fuse and was easily able to lock up the fronts with fresh hardware.

That goes for mountain roads as well. Living in Colorado, there are no shortage of extreme grades to test brakes on. Whether I’m going over Loveland Pass, coming east bound on I-70 into Denver, or doing technical braking on demanding trails, I’ve never wanted for more braking force.

On the flip side, my TBU upgrade was fraught with issues. First of all, it wasn’t cheap. The pedal was squishy for months, and while I was eventually able to get it somewhat firm, it never inspired the confidence that my stock brakes did. I see many others having similar issues. So, I put myself in the position of an average builder, is chasing down the cause for a squishy and potentially dangerous pedal something I really want to tackle? Nope.

So it costs quite a bit (relative), it can introduce a myriad of issues (potentially), and it changes an already stout setup (my opinion). I don’t know about you, but I have bigger fish to fry when it comes to building my truck

 

[TCMach]

I should have clarified when I said TBUs that I mean the 231s specifically.

However, while the TBU in general might generate more braking force, or dissipate more heat faster, I don’t want new users or anyone to be under the impression that the stock brakes are bad. When I was diagnosing an unrelated ABS issue awhile back, I had pulled the ABS fuse and was easily able to lock up the fronts with fresh hardware.

That goes for mountain roads as well. Living in Colorado, there are no shortage of extreme grades to test brakes on. Whether I’m going over Loveland Pass, coming east bound on I-70 into Denver, or doing technical braking on demanding trails, I’ve never wanted for more braking force.

On the flip side, my TBU upgrade was fraught with issues. First of all, it wasn’t cheap. The pedal was squishy for months, and while I was eventually able to get it somewhat firm, it never inspired the confidence that my stock brakes did. I see many others having similar issues. So, I put myself in the position of an average builder, is chasing down the cause for a squishy and potentially dangerous pedal something I really want to tackle? Nope.

So it costs quite a bit (relative), it can introduce a myriad of issues (potentially), and it changes an already stout setup (my opinion). I don’t know about you, but I have bigger fish to fry when it comes to building my truck

This reminds me of hiring new employees and you try to explain to the job to them in the most black and white terms possible when in reality its there is a lot of gray. Then you have to decide how much info to give them when they are new and as they progress.

In my experience with my own vehicle the stock brakes were not acceptable even with new pads & rotors and rebuilt rear brakes with armor being the key player. On a scale my truck weighed almost 4800 compared to the stock 3885 (2000 SR5) so almost 1000 pounds over the original curb weight. Now you aren't recommending bumpers so take a bit off but add in people and any sort of gear and you're over the original GVW. Looking at some form of brake upgrade isn't out of reason at that point IMO.

My current commute involves part of cottonwood pass (the Gypsum one) and highway 82 up to independence pass. Mountain roads by all accounts and I am grateful for the extra braking power. But maybe I care more than others because it is my every day life and I do over 2000' elevation each way (its not downhill both ways lol).

 

[norcalassassin]

just my 2 cents... I am under the impression that most people do the 231 TBU with out changing out their brake lines (usually 20+ yrs old and expand upon pressure). Switching to a SS braided line in conjunction with 231 TBU resolves all soft pedal issues...

 

[TCMach]

just my 2 cents... I am under the impression that most people do the 231 TBU with out changing out their brake lines (usually 20+ yrs old and expand upon pressure). Switching to a SS braided line in conjunction with 231 TBU resolves all soft pedal issues...

If you are referring to just the rubber lines & not the entire hard line system atleast in my case this is not true. I have wheelers SS lines and the 231 and the pedal is still softer than the stock brakes. It may be a factor as my pedal isn't as soft as others have reported but it still isn't as firm as the stock system.

 

[TonyB66]

If you are referring to just the rubber lines & not the entire hard line system atleast in my case this is not true. I have wheelers SS lines and the 231 and the pedal is still softer than the stock brakes. It may be a factor as my pedal isn't as soft as others have reported but it still isn't as firm as the stock system.

Having installed 231s somewhat recently, I have on my to-do list, to bleed the brake system, again. I too went with ss flex lines front and rear (3 in total). I'm now starting to realize that maybe that won't make a difference...

I'll be pulling a small utility trailer at times, so that was my rationale for the TBU, but I didn't now about these 231 ABS issues, otherwise I would have likely gone with the 199s.

Our friend JZiggy shares some good knowledge in this post:

https://www.toyota-4runner.org/2709776-post90.html

 

[Bad Luck]

The Maverick - Brand New!!
*New 99 Tall Coils front (Moogs are perfectly acceptable here)
*New OME 906 rear springs
*New Bilstein 6112's up front
*New Bilstein 5160's out back

[MENTION=79826]absalom[/MENTION] To my knowledge stock springs will not work with Bilstein 6112's due to larger shock diameter. They also come with springs. Tundra 6112's come with 650lb springs and 3rd gen 4Runner 6112's come with 600lb springs. If you wish to source a different spring rate the springs are 14"x3" for 4Runner and 16"x3" for Tundra. I appreciate reading through your original suggestions and have referenced it a few times being new to 4Runner ownership as well as recommended it to others asking the same questions I had. New suggestions are appreciated as well.

 

[Bad Luck]

Having installed 231s somewhat recently, I have on my to-do list, to bleed the brake system, again. I too went with ss flex lines front and rear (3 in total). I'm now starting to realize that maybe that won't make a difference...

I'll be pulling a small utility trailer at times, so that was my rationale for the TBU, but I didn't now about these 231 ABS issues, otherwise I would have likely gone with the 199s.

Our friend JZiggy shares some good knowledge in this post:

https://www.toyota-4runner.org/2709776-post90.html

JZiggy's post doesn't really apply to you or I. We both have limited 4Runner's which means we have the larger rear wheel cylinders he is referencing.

 

[TCMach]

Having installed 231s somewhat recently, I have on my to-do list, to bleed the brake system, again. I too went with ss flex lines front and rear (3 in total). I'm now starting to realize that maybe that won't make a difference...

I'll be pulling a small utility trailer at times, so that was my rationale for the TBU, but I didn't now about these 231 ABS issues, otherwise I would have likely gone with the 199s.

Our friend JZiggy shares some good knowledge in this post:

https://www.toyota-4runner.org/2709776-post90.html

FWIW I and the other couple trucks I've put TBUs on have had zero issues with ABS. Your mileage my vary, see previously mentioned threads lol

This is almost looking like it needs to be a new thread if we want to keep going. I have a couple threads that are interesting me (since I'm already running 17s)
Brake Dimensions and Specifications - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
4th Gen Sport brakes on 3rd Gen??

Theres also many threads on alternate master cylinders. Which could completely change the hydraulic leverage referenced by JZiggy. Alternate boosters, chevy parts... could go on and on.
Master Cylinder upgrade options

 

[JZiggy]

Having installed 231s somewhat recently, I have on my to-do list, to bleed the brake system, again. I too went with ss flex lines front and rear (3 in total). I'm now starting to realize that maybe that won't make a difference...

I'll be pulling a small utility trailer at times, so that was my rationale for the TBU, but I didn't now about these 231 ABS issues, otherwise I would have likely gone with the 199s.

Our friend JZiggy shares some good knowledge in this post:

https://www.toyota-4runner.org/2709776-post90.html

Thanks for the mention, Tony. Glad to see my OCD detail capturing is interesting to someone

 

[beklemmung]

Bushings and sway bar links

(@absalom - thanks for putting this together, it's a big help for people like me. I do have one suggestion: edit your initial post to include the two most recent builds that you added.)

I'm putting together a shopping list for a refresh that's in the neighborhood of the DD/WW Pavement Bias and Jack of All Trades lists. I have some questions and would really appreciate feedback/clarification:

1. My first question is about "new sway bar links front and rear."
1a. THIS is the OEM rear sway bar link and only 1 is needed, correct? Are there good aftermarket options or best to stick with OEM?
1b. Is a "front sway bar link" the same thing as an outer tie rod? If so then it should be part #4 HERE, but if it's something else, please let me know the part number, and again, if there's a better aftermarket option than OEM.

2. Steering rack bushings. Would new OEM steering rack bushings have been included in the steering gear and linking assembly linked in 1b above? The previous owner had everything inside the box (part #1) installed by a dealership about 40k miles ago so I'll hold off on it now if this included steering rack bushings.

3. Upper and lower control arm bushings. Do I need all 3 parts listed below? Am I missing anything?
Energy Suspension front control arm bushing 8.3132G
Whiteline upper inner control arm bushing - rear W83374
Whiteline lower inner control arm bushing - front W53377A

4. Sway bar bushings front and rear - are the 1st and 3rd bushings listed essentially the same? Do I need 26mm or 27mm?
Energy Suspension sway bar and endlink bushing - front 8.5118
Energy Suspension sway bar bushing - rear 8.5142
Whiteline sway bar bracket bushing - front W22598

5. Other bushings. Would any of the following be a good idea to replace on a 1997 SR5?
Energy Suspension body mount set 8.4111
Energy Suspension shock bushings - rear 8.8102
Energy Suspension bump stop set - front and rear
Energy Suspension track arm bushings - rear 8.7106
Whiteline upper trailing arm bushing - rear W63379
Whiteline lower trailing arm bushing - rear W63378
Nolathane track bar bushing - rear

 

[Bad Luck]

(@absalom - thanks for putting this together, it's a big help for people like me. I do have one suggestion: edit your initial post to include the two most recent builds that you added.)

I'm putting together a shopping list for a refresh that's in the neighborhood of the DD/WW Pavement Bias and Jack of All Trades lists. I have some questions and would really appreciate feedback/clarification:

1. My first question is about "new sway bar links front and rear."
1a. THIS is the OEM rear sway bar link and only 1 is needed, correct? Are there good aftermarket options or best to stick with OEM?
1b. Is a "front sway bar link" the same thing as an outer tie rod? If so then it should be part #4 HERE, but if it's something else, please let me know the part number, and again, if there's a better aftermarket option than OEM.

2. Steering rack bushings. Would new OEM steering rack bushings have been included in the steering gear and linking assembly linked in 1b above? The previous owner had everything inside the box (part #1) installed by a dealership about 40k miles ago so I'll hold off on it now if this included steering rack bushings.

I can't help with 3-5, but I'll help where I can.

1a) That is the correct part and you'll need 2.
1b) Front sway bar link is not an outer tie rod end. You'll need 2 of these: Stabilizer Link - Toyota (48820-AD010) | Toyota Parts

Alternatively: MStudT sells ungraded sway bar end links that aren't much more if any more than buying new oem links: Sway Bar Links - Eugene, OR or if your links are fine and the bushings are worn you can replace the bushings with something along the lines of this: Front Anti-Sway Kit 1996-2002 4Runner (4RUNSWYKIT) and https://wheelersoffroad.com/i-25490...2-4runer-18-1116-bl.html?ref=category:1346188

2)OEM steering rack bushings do not come with #1 in that parts diagram. Only the stuff inside the box for #1 comes with it. You can try these bushings if you don't mind poly: https://wheelersoffroad.com/i-25489...-4runner-8-10101g-1.html?ref=category:1338001

 

[beklemmung]

[MENTION=319302]Bad Luck[/MENTION], thanks for the reply, appreciate it. I don't know if my sway bar/stabilizer links are fine, but the truck has had a fairly easy life. I'll have someone more knowledgeable than I am take a look before I make a decision, hopefully I can just do the bearings.

For the steering rack bushings, poly is generally considered to be superior to rubber/OEM, correct? Do you know why I'm seeing slightly different part numbers than the Wheeler's item you linked? ES 8.10103 and Whiteline W129780 (these look like the same thing to me, though the Whiteline is nearly 2x the price).

 

[Bad Luck]

Poly will be stiffer, but less resistant to oil compared to OEM bushings. If your valve covers leak (pretty common) then you'll get oil from that on your steering rack bushings eventually. The Energy Suspension ones you linked look identical to the one's Wheeler's is selling. I'm not sure if the Whiteline bushings include the metal sleeves or not. Just something to consider.