Advice on Water Meth

[Speedy]

2002 4Runner 3.4 V6 Auto (cali emissions version)
TRD Supercharger
URD 2.1 pulley
URD 7th injector kit with built in part throttle boost enrichment
Coolingmist CMGS water/meth kit with single 7GPH nozzle mounted in intake tube about 6" before throttle body
Currently running -25 washer fluid (30% methanol) with one 12oz bottle of Heet added as the meth injection fluid
AFE drop in high flow air filter (non oil type)
Deck Plate Mod
Stock fuel pump

I'm having trouble getting consistency on my runs. I've dialed out all the timing retard from my URD map, and am only adding a spritz of fuel in the upper RPM ranges with the 7th injector.

One pull the truck will pull like a freight train with a 12.0 AFR on my wideband, I'm seeing good timing on my Scan Gauge II in the 11 - 21 range 11 lower in the RPM band and climbs to 21 as it approaches redline.

Next pull, the AFR will be 9.9, the truck stumbles, and I see 0 degrees of timing on my Scan Gauge II. I'm not sure what to make of it. My hunch is cat over temp protection is kicking in and the truck is dumping fuel, but shouldn't the water/meth prevent COT from activating?

One other oddity I'm hunting down is a P0171 CEL that just randomly started to pop. It'll come on and go off on it's own. If I clear it it'll come back randomly after 200 or so miles. Looking at data, the LTFT looks to be pegged at 34.4%, but ONLY at idle. When applying any amount of throttle while driving the LTFT is more what I'd expect at 6 - 11% give or take. I've thoroughly cleaned the MAF and am waiting to see if the code pops again. The up stream WB O2 sensor was replaced about 40K miles ago, so that might be next.

The water/meth run inconsistency and the P0171 "could" be related I guess.....if the WB O2 is the problem. But driving at part throttle the wide band gauge reads 14.x like you'd expect.

What do you guys think?

 

[4-Ripcord]

I was also thinking cat temp when I read the first part. Have you considered removing or going with high flow cats and a rear o2 simulator? Depending on your state laws.

 

[Speedy]

I was also thinking cat temp when I read the first part. Have you considered removing or going with high flow cats and a rear o2 simulator? Depending on your state laws.

Yes, but that won't fix COT I don't think? I believe COT is programmed in based on WOT intake air temp etc. The truck won't know the cat has been removed and will just do it's thing. Right?

 

[4-Ripcord]

I always thought it was an actual temp measurement, if what you say is true then nevermind

 

[Speedy]

Yep its a calculated value....not measured. On cars that we can actually tune we always turn it off.

 

[JayRolla]

2002 4Runner 3.4 V6 Auto (cali emissions version)
TRD Supercharger
URD 2.1 pulley
URD 7th injector kit with built in part throttle boost enrichment
Coolingmist CMGS water/meth kit with single 7GPH nozzle mounted in intake tube about 6" before throttle body
Currently running -25 washer fluid (30% methanol) with one 12oz bottle of Heet added as the meth injection fluid
AFE drop in high flow air filter (non oil type)
Deck Plate Mod
Stock fuel pump

I'm having trouble getting consistency on my runs. I've dialed out all the timing retard from my URD map, and am only adding a spritz of fuel in the upper RPM ranges with the 7th injector.

One pull the truck will pull like a freight train with a 12.0 AFR on my wideband, I'm seeing good timing on my Scan Gauge II in the 11 - 21 range 11 lower in the RPM band and climbs to 21 as it approaches redline.

Next pull, the AFR will be 9.9, the truck stumbles, and I see 0 degrees of timing on my Scan Gauge II. I'm not sure what to make of it. My hunch is cat over temp protection is kicking in and the truck is dumping fuel, but shouldn't the water/meth prevent COT from activating?

One other oddity I'm hunting down is a P0171 CEL that just randomly started to pop. It'll come on and go off on it's own. If I clear it it'll come back randomly after 200 or so miles. Looking at data, the LTFT looks to be pegged at 34.4%, but ONLY at idle. When applying any amount of throttle while driving the LTFT is more what I'd expect at 6 - 11% give or take. I've thoroughly cleaned the MAF and am waiting to see if the code pops again. The up stream WB O2 sensor was replaced about 40K miles ago, so that might be next.

The water/meth run inconsistency and the P0171 "could" be related I guess.....if the WB O2 is the problem. But driving at part throttle the wide band gauge reads 14.x like you'd expect.

What do you guys think?

Meth injection makes you run super rich. Have you tried multiple runs with out the injection? Be CAREFUL. Add fuel if lean.

 

[Stick Figure]

Are you sure the water injection is working 100% of the time? The last time I used "washer solvent" as a meth substitute it ended up clogging the pump and consequently taking out the head gasket. Seems like there was something with the blue dye used that causes issues. This was like 15 years ago and on an Aquamist pump, so things may have changed a lot by now, but I figured I would throw it out.

 

[Kelevra]

Hiya Speedy, didn't realize you were on this forum. I utilized parts of your vid, (as well as Tim's), to do my TBU yesterday. Thanks for that great vid.

 

[Speedy]

Meth injection makes you run super rich. Have you tried multiple runs with out the injection? Be CAREFUL. Add fuel if lean.

I'm still doing some testing to try and find that sweet spot my truck likes. I added a bit more meth to my mix this last fill, and I think you're right that it impacts AFR A LOT more than you'd expect. I've found dialing back the injection has helped things a lot. I think it's actually going to end up being a combination of COT (cat over temp) and meth injection. I wish we could tune these trucks like other vehicles to eliminate some of these oddities. We're having to trick and work around the ECM on a lot of this.

Are you sure the water injection is working 100% of the time? The last time I used "washer solvent" as a meth substitute it ended up clogging the pump and consequently taking out the head gasket. Seems like there was something with the blue dye used that causes issues. This was like 15 years ago and on an Aquamist pump, so things may have changed a lot by now, but I figured I would throw it out.

Yeah, the system is working well. Pumps and nozzles have come a long way.

Hiya Speedy, didn't realize you were on this forum. I utilized parts of your vid, (as well as Tim's), to do my TBU yesterday. Thanks for that great vid.

Awesome!

Further update, the CEL came back after thoroughly cleaning the MAF, so I'm pretty sure it's not that. I'm now doing some testing on the upstream wide band O2 sensor. The service manual is kind of confusing, obviously translated. For testing the O2 sensor it says the following:

Engine idling
Engine racing
Driving at engine speed 1,500 rpm or more and vehicle speed 40 km/h (25mph) or more, and operate throttle valve open and close

Not remains at 3.30 V (0.660 V*)
Not remains at 3.8 V (0 76 V*) or more
Not remains at 2.8 V (0.56 V*) or less
*: When you use the OBDII scan tool (excluding TOYOTA hand-held tester)

Mine seems to be staying "mostly" at 3.3V according to the Torque app on my phone connected to a OBDMX wireless.

I'm going to do some easy, and long over due maintenance, and replace the PCV valve, grommet, and hose. I found the hose pretty cracked at the TB end connection. Not sure if it's enough to cause a vac leak but it's been 8 years, 60K miles, and the OEM kit was $18.

 

[gamefreakgc]

Meth injection makes you run super rich. Have you tried multiple runs with out the injection? Be CAREFUL. Add fuel if lean.

That was my thought. Unplug the controller and see if you still have that rich spot. If yes, you've ruled out your methanol system.

My first controller I installed from Snow Performance was stuck on, so it was constantly spraying fluid. Luckily I added a little light next to my wideband when the pump was getting power so I knew it was stuck on. Definitely worth the trouble to do.

Also, you are putting a lot of water into the combustion chambers. Water doesn't burn off and raises the octane considerably. You might just be spraying too much in, I might suggest just buying Boost Juice that is premixed at 50/50, that way you know it's not your mixture. If you live near Sac you can have one of the bottles in my garage

There's so many variables on why it might be going rich, you just gotta eliminate the possibilities one by one.

 

[Speedy]

P0171 problem solved....a little keen listening and a spritz of carb cleaner pointed out a vaccum nipple on the back of the supercharger that had lost it's cap. Now that that's sorted, I'll get back after tuning the meth.

 

[Speedy]

Problems solved. The VAC leak was throwing the fueling off way more than I expected at WOT.

Made 6-7 WOT pulls today and each one got smoother and the AFR leaned up nicely. Things are now back where they should be and the truck pulls nice and hard and smooth.

Now to continue research on Turbo setups.

 

[fourfive]

Cool that you were able to figure that out. Turbo...you got my attention.

 

[Speedy]

Cool that you were able to figure that out. Turbo...you got my attention.

The CXRacing turbo setup looks interesting, but I gotta figure out if the juice is worth the squeeze. Reading information on it, seems like there have been some interesting tuning issues getting it to run right, and some modification to exhaust routing etc, required to solve surging, AFR fluctuations, etc.

My TRD SC is running 10-11psi and with the meth injection it's a pretty stout setup. I'd like to maximize the performance, but I may be there already. I looked at the Thorley headers, and feedback on those was to pass on them especially if you have the later stock tube manifolds, which mine are.