Alignment and CBI Front Receiver Install

[NorthernRyan]

Well I thought I would throw you guys some picks and numbers as I find I can never have enough to compare to on here and used this site to critique and decide on these things myself. Sorry for the cell phones pics, is what it is.

First off I finally had my alignment done since installing my OW 2.0 setup with LR UCAs. Called MXC Offroad up here as I figured they would know what they were doing. Apparently they don't have an alignment machine and get it done at the local fountain tire. So I phoned them and mentioned I would like to request certain specs as I put a lift on it. Their response "don't worry, we know what we're doing", while kinda arrogant it assured me. Here's the sheet I got back.

<a href="http://s1183.photobucket.com/albums/x477/engryan/car/?action=view&current=2012-01-11002307.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x477/engryan/car/2012-01-11002307.jpg" border="0" alt="Alignment"></a>

From what I read this is what they should have gone for and as far as ride goes, ZOMFG it's soo much better then before (as expected) and even better then original. Tracks beautifully.

As far as the front receiver goes the install was super easy after figuring how to get the bumper off which wasn't hard. Nathan from CBI was a pleasure to do business with and the front receiver is a beast, not worried about ripping it off. I think the finished project is pretty slick as it comes perfectly flush with the front grill. Take a look for yourselves.

<a href="http://s1183.photobucket.com/albums/x477/engryan/car/?action=view&current=2012-01-07182044.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x477/engryan/car/2012-01-07182044.jpg" border="0" alt="front receiver 2"></a>

<a href="http://s1183.photobucket.com/albums/x477/engryan/car/?action=view&current=2012-01-07182033.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x477/engryan/car/2012-01-07182033.jpg" border="0" alt="front receiver 1"></a>

<a href="http://s1183.photobucket.com/albums/x477/engryan/car/?action=view&current=2012-01-07190845.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x477/engryan/car/2012-01-07190845.jpg" border="0" alt="front receiver close"></a>

<a href="http://s1183.photobucket.com/albums/x477/engryan/car/?action=view&current=2012-01-07190839.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x477/engryan/car/2012-01-07190839.jpg" border="0" alt="front receiver done"></a>

Never having taken my bumper off I didn't realize I was removing the crumple zone cross member thingy that supports the bottom of the bumper. The cross member of the receiver doesn't stick out as far so there`s no screwing into it for the lower bumper. The bumper is still very solid so not a big deal. However, I was planning on using that as a place to mount some Rigid Duallys 2 into the bumper on the sides. My solution is when I go to the body shop to get my body mounts chopped for the 285s I`ll be putting on next week D) I will get them to chop down the old bumper support and weld it to the front receiver, best of both worlds. :bigok:

On a side note the pdf of the toyota schematic (found on toyota120) for the bolts that bolt the front receiver on said to tighten them to 58Nm or 79 Lbf...those aren't even close. As I did not feel like sheering a bolt off that it welded in place I split the difference at around 65Lbf ish.

Comments, questions and criticism welcome.

 

[sonerick]

Looks good! Those alignment numbers look dead on too, and I like that they set the caster high, I've been thinking about doing the same thing myself.

What do you plan on using the front hitch for, simple recovery point? winch? Very clean install, good work!

 

[Sungod]

High caster is bad news for your ball joints.

 

[sonerick]

High caster is bad news for your ball joints.

True, however, lane tracking is a weak point of the 4Runners in stock form, and this weakness is further exaggerated with a lift and larger tires. Setting the caster high is one solution to this problem. In my opinion, better tracking that results from high caster is worth having to replace the ball joints a little early.

Not only would take a while for high caster to actually cause ball joint failure (we're talking 4.5 vs the Toyota recommended max of 4.0, nothing too extreme), but ball joints are cheap and relatively easy to replace.

Just my .02

 

[Sungod]

True, however, lane tracking is a weak point of the 4Runners in stock form, and this weakness is further exaggerated with a lift and larger tires. Setting the caster high is one solution to this problem. In my opinion, better tracking that results from high caster is worth having to replace the ball joints a little early.

Not only would take a while for high caster to actually cause ball joint failure (we're talking 4.5 vs the Toyota recommended max of 4.0, nothing too extreme), but ball joints are cheap and relatively easy to replace.

Just my .02

To each his own. I have never had a problem with tracking. The range is 2.5 to 4.0 which puts the target at 3.25 and you are almost a full degree above that. In addition to ball joints, it also puts a lot more stress on your steering and to a degree increase wear on your tires. While ball joints may be inexpensive, a new power steering pump and certainly a new rack are not. The increased wear will come from the increased angle as well as the wear you will get from worn ball joints unless you are super lucky and catch them before they are shot. Adding large tires only increases the likelihood of wear. I wouldn't risk it.

 

[NorthernRyan]

Never heard about that ball joints before, good to know and I can see why it would now that you mention it. Hopefully the ball joint on the new UCAs are tougher anyways, and I guess we'll see about the lower ones. I could kinda see how it might be harder on the steering but I don't think it will effect tire wear much at all. Your not changing how the tire contacts the road with caster as far as I can tell geometry wise and read.

I'm going to use it as a recovery point for now using the receiver shackle I got from OW. In the not so far future hopefully I'm going to get a winch and plate mount it so it can go front or back and i don't have to have it on all the time. Being my daily driver and only vehicle it seemed silly to jump to steel bumpers or a permanent winch, IMO.

 

[Sungod]

Tire wear is impacted in two ways from increased caster. The first being that as you increase the angle, it puts more force on the outside edge. At zero caster the tire stays flat. Caster is measured from the distance between the upper and lower ball joint. As you increase the angle the force increases on the edge of the tires. Obviously this is why camber being close to zero is so important because increased camber could increase the angles. This is not typically significant in terms of wear, but over time especially with city driving it becomes more of an issue. You see this frequently on cars like Mercedes because they have very high caster (as much as 7 degrees) to get that nice comfortable ride, but they also have suspension parts designed for that use. Tires just become sacrificial at that point.

The other factor is by increasing the stress on the suspension parts, the more likely you are to experience wear. When that happens unless you are super lucky you probably won't notice bad parts like ball joints, tie rod ends, etc. until you see wear patterns on your tires and by that time it is too late.

 

[sonerick]

Tire wear is impacted in two ways from increased caster. The first being that as you increase the angle, it puts more force on the outside edge. At zero caster the tire stays flat. Caster is measured from the distance between the upper and lower ball joint. As you increase the angle the force increases on the edge of the tires. Obviously this is why camber being close to zero is so important because increased camber could increase the angles. This is not typically significant in terms of wear, but over time especially with city driving it becomes more of an issue. You see this frequently on cars like Mercedes because they have very high caster (as much as 7 degrees) to get that nice comfortable ride, but they also have suspension parts designed for that use. Tires just become sacrificial at that point.

The other factor is by increasing the stress on the suspension parts, the more likely you are to experience wear. When that happens unless you are super lucky you probably won't notice bad parts like ball joints, tie rod ends, etc. until you see wear patterns on your tires and by that time it is too late.

I agree with you that excessive caster places additional stress on steering components. However, excessive caster DOES NOT cause tire wear, and DOES NOT put more force on the outside edge of the car's tires. You are confusing caster with camber in this instance. Out of spec CAMBER causes tire wear like you describe. The OP's camber is right near 0 where it is supposed to be to make sure the tire's contact patch is flat.

Caster angle is not measured from the distance between the upper and lower ball joint. Caster angle is the number of degrees that a line, drawn through the center of the upper and lower ball joints and viewed from the side, can be tilted forward or backward. Positive caster means that the top of the upper ball joint is tilted toward the rear of the vehicle, and negative caster means that it is tilted toward the front. High performance vehicles like Mercedes spec higher caster angles to provide better stability at speed and during braking.

To the OP, don't worry about your alignment number's, they look fine. Additional caster with a lift and larger tires is good, especially on the 4Runner. You have nothing to worry about.

 

[Sungod]

I agree with you that excessive caster places additional stress on steering components. However, excessive caster DOES NOT cause tire wear, and DOES NOT put more force on the outside edge of the car's tires. You are confusing caster with camber in this instance. Out of spec CAMBER causes tire wear like you describe. The OP's camber is right near 0 where it is supposed to be to make sure the tire's contact patch is flat.

Caster angle is not measured from the distance between the upper and lower ball joint. Caster angle is the number of degrees that a line, drawn through the center of the upper and lower ball joints and viewed from the side, can be tilted forward or backward. Positive caster means that the top of the upper ball joint is tilted toward the rear of the vehicle, and negative caster means that it is tilted toward the front. High performance vehicles like Mercedes spec higher caster angles to provide better stability at speed and during braking.

To the OP, don't worry about your alignment number's, they look fine. Additional caster with a lift and larger tires is good, especially on the 4Runner. You have nothing to worry about.

You seem to not understand caster. As I have written increased caster causes increased force on the outside edge. That increased weight is what causes the tire wear. Obviously this does not happen as you drive straigh down the road which is why I said that it is more severe in city driving. I suggest you look at a Mercedes at full lock and you will get a better idea.

As for the definition of caster, yes I could have been more specific, but for 99% of the poplulation a general description just to give someone an idea of what they are looking at usually works better.

 

[sonerick]

I don't know what else to say, but clearly you are the one who does not understand your alignment terms. Do some research.