Alignment Specs Help Post Camburg Moog UCA Install

JPOVS

JPOVS

Member
Hi, last weekend my father and I lifted (Initially 3"front, 2.6"rear) my 4Runner and the next day I had an alignment done. After reading some reviews it looks like most others who installed the Camburg UCA with Moog ball joints were able to achieve a greater caster angle than I was and this has me thinking there may be a problem when I switch to bigger tires (285/70/17) within the next month.

The vehicle drives good down the highway before and after the alignment. The only problem I notice after the alignment is a very slight wanting to wander with the grooves in the road.

When I asked for a printout I was told they don't have the capability of printing them so they gave me hand written notes. I thought the caster seemed low and mentioned that most people achieve +2 with factory UCA's. They spent 30 minutes working on it and said this was the best they could do. I've read where others took 1-2 hours to achieve +3 deg. So did they do the best they can?

I have limited knowledge on alignments so please let me know if things look off?

Start / Finish
LF Camber +3/4deg / -1/16deg
RF Camber +5/8deg / -1/16deg

LF Caster +1-3/8deg / +2deg
RF Caster +1-1/2deg / +2-1/16deg

Toe Out 1/4" Toe In 1/16"

Thank you in advance for the help.
 
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If it drives fine I wouldn't worry to much about it, it does seem like you may be able to get a bit more Caster based on what others reported BUT every truck is different. I am not qualified to say if .25 or 1.5 or somewhere in between would be considered normal variation between 4runners but going back to "if it drives fine" I would leave it alone and go ahead with 285's and if you need to do a BMC then consider messing with the alignments again or going the BMC route.

IMHO I would bet they adjusted 1x and called it good, vs. the better practice of doing small adjustments on each side and "dialing it it".......not sure how better to say that but if it was 30min from the time they took the keys to the time you got them back that would be my guess.....if it was 30min spent under the truck.....you can get some solid adjustments in during that time.

If they will let you , next time go back with the Tech and watch what they do and how it adjusts on the screen. Its a good learning experience and will give you a better idea of if its as good as it will be or if they just didn't try hard.

Nothing about your numbers really jump out at me but like you I would think more Caster could be had ( may want to check what the OEM specs are as I am not sure what the recommended lower limit is)

For reference my Caster was 3.6 and 3.3 (Same UCA) - not sure if any of the above answers your question or gives you a clear answer
 
engineer said:
if it drives fine i wouldn't worry to much about it, it does seem like you may be able to get a bit more caster based on what others reported but every truck is different. I am not qualified to say if .25 or 1.5 or somewhere in between would be considered normal variation between 4runners but going back to "if it drives fine" i would leave it alone and go ahead with 285's and if you need to do a bmc then consider messing with the alignments again or going the bmc route.

Imho i would bet they adjusted 1x and called it good, vs. The better practice of doing small adjustments on each side and "dialing it it".......not sure how better to say that but if it was 30min from the time they took the keys to the time you got them back that would be my guess.....if it was 30min spent under the truck.....you can get some solid adjustments in during that time.

If they will let you , next time go back with the tech and watch what they do and how it adjusts on the screen. Its a good learning experience and will give you a better idea of if its as good as it will be or if they just didn't try hard.

Nothing about your numbers really jump out at me but like you i would think more caster could be had ( may want to check what the oem specs are as i am not sure what the recommended lower limit is)

for reference my caster was 3.6 and 3.3 (same uca) - not sure if any of the above answers your question or gives you a clear answer
Click to expand...

+2.6
 
Thank you for the help. Yours is one that I reviewed a few times. I figured from the specs you had accomplished they could surly do better on mine.
After talking to the alignment shop again they told me that the initial results they wrote down could be on the low side since there equipment is old(?).
I found an alignment shop nearby work that would give me a free inspection report and here are there measurements:

Driver / Passenger
Camber -.4deg / -.2deg
Cross Camber -.2deg
Caster 2.9deg / 2.7deg (red)
Cross Caster .2deg
Toe -.04 (red) / -.07deg (red)
Total Toe -.10deg (red)

I was pleasantly surprised to find the caster was greater than what I was originally told. Not as high as yours, but better than before.
Decided yesterday to go ahead and purchase the 285/70/17 KO2's to make sure there's no rubbing. After leaving the shop I checked as much as I could driving over the curb and not in full lock and there's no rubbing at this point. The setup is looking pretty good.
Curious, since it appears to drive good down the highway but some of the measurements are in the "red", would you have it adjusted more or call it a day?
Thank you again for the help.
 
These alignment machines are all different... The alignment is only as good as the machine and the tech running it.

Don't get too caught up in the numbers. If it drives good and does not rub, just enjoy.
 
I installed larger 285/70/17 dura trac's and had to ensure that the tech CENTERED the lower control arm.

by default alignment techs are trying to get your car on the rack and out as quick as possible. so, they are taught to simply push the rear eccentric bolt with the fatter section inward and then do all the adjustments from the front eceentric bolt. what this does is push the wheel forward and then your larger 285 tires will rub on the bumper over hang.

i had to make sure that the tech cented both bolts and made slight adjustments to both front and rear from there.

so looking at my vehicle the eccentric bolts where fat side UP to start and adjustments had them move a few degress from center.

this centers the wheel and avoids rubbing - may not completely eliminate but will do the best your gonna get.

at full lock im about 1/2 inch from the tire touching.
at front im just about to hit. i trimmed a little plastic anyways just to because.

my caster was at 1.5 and yes thats under spec, but it drives fine.

next i will buy an upper control arm to get my caster higher.

-J
 
Jasontamu said:
I installed larger 285/70/17 dura trac's and had to ensure that the tech CENTERED the lower control arm.

by default alignment techs are trying to get your car on the rack and out as quick as possible. so, they are taught to simply push the rear eccentric bolt with the fatter section inward and then do all the adjustments from the front eceentric bolt. what this does is push the wheel forward and then your larger 285 tires will rub on the bumper over hang.

i had to make sure that the tech cented both bolts and made slight adjustments to both front and rear from there.

so looking at my vehicle the eccentric bolts where fat side UP to start and adjustments had them move a few degress from center.

this centers the wheel and avoids rubbing - may not completely eliminate but will do the best your gonna get.

at full lock im about 1/2 inch from the tire touching.
at front im just about to hit. i trimmed a little plastic anyways just to because.

my caster was at 1.5 and yes thats under spec, but it drives fine.

next i will buy an upper control arm to get my caster higher.

-J
Click to expand...

Sorry... but your post will confuse the heck out of people... By adjusting it the way you described... you reduce the caster (which is exactly what you got).

You want the wheels as forward as possible with larger tires. There is no other way to improve caster unless you somehow move the upper joint back (which is exactly what aftermarket UCAs do)...Yes, the tech should adjust the rear cam out and the front cam in and work from there to maximize the caster.

Rubbing on the front overhang is of 0 concern.. You just trim the plastic and it is resolved. Rubbing in the rear is where you have to start cutting metal or destroying fenders and tire.

There is a balancing process between front and rear... but rear out is where I have always ended up and it seems pretty much universal. I'm not saying you need 4+ caster for it to drive correctly... the numbers are relative to the machine error.. but below factory specs is not going to be good in the long run.
 
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wfo9 said:
Sorry... but your post will confuse the heck out of people... By adjusting it the way you described... you reduce the caster (which is exactly what you got).

You want the wheels as forward as possible with larger tires. There is no other way to improve caster unless you somehow move the upper joint back (which is exactly what aftermarket UCAs do)...Yes, the tech should adjust the rear cam out and the front cam in and work from there to maximize the caster.

Rubbing on the front overhang is of 0 concern.. You just trim the plastic and it is resolved. Rubbing in the rear is where you have to start cutting metal or destroying fenders and tire.

There is a balancing process between front and rear... but rear out is where I have always ended up and it seems pretty much universal.
Click to expand...

yes correct......caster lower (out of spec) isn't as bad as camber or toe out of spec.

i KNEW i would need a upper control arm to get caster into spec and yes i could have adjusted it more fwd to where all items were in spec with 285's but yes it would require cutting a lot more of the front bumper lower section.

my plan was to not cut so much - i literately trimmed at an angle at most a 1/4 inch off the bumper at the thickest lowest spot and tapered and ended up with a toothpick tapered shape like piece i removed. my rear had a good gap at full lock and doesn't hit metal.

like i mentioned, my plan is to next get the upper control arm and regain the caster back up more positive. i purchased 5 year alignment package from NTB so i can go back as needed.

did not intend to confuse people.

the caster at 1.5 doesn't wander or drive weird at all, it drives well. i bet if it got closer to 0 it would be bad but i dont want to find out.

-J
 
Also, tires don't dictate the need for UCAs... Lift does. The caster naturally decreases as the suspension drops. You will just be chasing your tail if you are afraid to trim the front and push the fender liner out of the way....
 
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