American vehicle diehards...

[AntleredRuin]

I occasionally go on Wikipedia/ Google bursts on random topics just for the sake of learning, and whenever I do this concerning vehicles, I always seem come across an amusing side argument; American vs Japanese.
There is always someone who says (truthfully) that statistically, Japanese vehicles are more likely to be reliable, and there are always those people who are ready to crucify him for saying so.

This is me flaming a bit, but why are people so unwilling to acknowledge that statistically, Japanese vehicles are more likely to last longer? Not saying that an American made CAN'T last 250k+, but most all Japanese vehicles last at least that long, if not much longer.
I'm all for keeping money in 'Murica, but I'm not going to throw my money away on something when its competition is world renowned for regularly lasting twice as long...

I read in Mopar forums that "my truck provide 200k miles of faithful service", and here, if your 4runner doesn't get past 200k, you're pretty much disowned and not allowed back on the forum. It's kinda like learning to walk; it's just expected. You're happy when it happens, but not surprised at all. It's expected that you'll go much further than that, actually.

I just don't see how people don't get this. Sure, 'Yotas might cost a few hundred more at the dealership, but if they last twice as long, it's a no brainer. No harder to work on either and parts are easily obtained as well so I'm not sure where that idea came from. Maybe from the 70s, but geez, guys.

I always love the argument that you can find ANY GM part at a parts house. This doesn't say convenience to me; this tells me that they break so much that you better have a steady supply of parts immediately on hand.

I was just looking up the GM 3.4 v6 (to compare to the Toyota 3.4) and someone was saying how they HATED their 3.4 bowtie, but WOULD NOT TOUCH an import because "AMERICA!"... Geez. I find it hard not to join those forums just to troll 7 year old threads...

Just a funny thing I felt like mentioning.

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[T5RUNNER]

I think there are a few reasons:

Some people want to keep the money they spend in the domestic economy. There is nothing wrong with that, and the Japanese do that much more than Americans do. Sometimes it is misguided (like dodge trucks owned by an Italian company and built in Mexico).

Statistically, Japanese vehicles have much bigger rust issues. If you live in Cali you don't care, but in the rust belt having a vehicle that doesn't rust as quickly is a major plus and outweighs minor mechanical faults. This is more true of older vehicles but reputations fade slowly.

People don't drive the average vehicle. They drive a dozen or so individual cars their entire lives. Our sample size is small. My 3rd gen 4Runner was the first Toyota I had ever owned, and it was also the biggest POS I have ever dealt with by a huge margin. It left me stranded several times with separate issues and I wrenched on it more than I drove it. You could understand if my personal opinion was that toyotas were garbage.

Parts don't last forever and all vehicles need scheduled maintenance. American vehicles tend to be designed to need less (like mostly not using timing belts) and parts are in fact cheaper and more available.

Also, don't lump them all together. You might be lucky to get 200,000 mi out of a dodge, but that would be nothing special in a ford truck.

 

[LittleCaesar]

My family has had 10+ Yotas. All have been made in Japan except for the 2008 Camry. Thanks in large to the less than stellar 2AZ-FE, poor interior parts and front end that chews up tires in 20,000 miles I don't know if I would buy another Yota, at least a Camry that is. Maybe the made in Mexico Corolla will be made better.

American cars need more TLC IMHO though I have gotten at least 150,000 miles out of all the ones I have owned.

Never owned a European car, and probably never will. The wallet just isn't deep enough for the long term cost of ownership.

 

[AntleredRuin]

I don't believe there is anything wrong with wanting to keep money in the economy either. I just don't believe in short-changing myself to do it.
My own wallet takes priority to the nation's, IMO, concerning everyday life finances. The fact that America is $19 Trillion in debt literally doesn't affect me as much personally as my car repairs. And my spending potentially $20-$80k on a new American vehicle won't exactly make that big of a difference. There is the fact too, that cash for a CL vehicle does not go to the economy at all.

And I know I clumped the Big3 together, but I've had less than stellar experience with Fords as well. I drove several different Ford trucks with 4.6 and 5.4 Tritons for 3 years for work and they were nothing but problematic (not just the engine). When I quit, none of the trucks even had 140k on them and they had each been to shops for internal engine problems. Luckily, all repairs were paid for by my company.
My old '96 4.0 Cologne Explorer got to 180k, but by then I barely trusted the damn thing to make it out of my neighborhood, and most of the interior had literally MELTED with the Texas heat. I don't think ANY of the interior electronics worked by then, either. Power locks, windows, mirrors, seats, lights (not bulbs), A/C, radio, etc. The tranny had to be coaxed through each shift.
My grandma's '98 Taurus was on its way to a 3rd auto transmission and it only had 54k original miles. My family's list goes on.
There are some amazing Big3 engines (mostly in the straight configuration). The AMC/Jeep 4.0, the Ford 4.9, etc. I actually considered these before getting my 4runner, but online reviews stated that while the engine lasted forever, the rest of the vehicle did not. What good is an eternally lasting engine if the tranny/ frame/ suspension needs constant replacement or fixing, and the interior is completely falling apart? Hey the engine is still good, but none of my electronics OR my A/C work, and I've had to rebuild my tranny twice. Worth it.

We buy these 3rd Gen 4Runners (and really any other generation, or Toyota, for that matter) with the expectation that we will get 300k+ before having any REAL issues with any part of the vehicle. My wife's '03 Rav4 has 147k on it, and the ONLY problem to date was an alternator that died at 140k and gave about 80 miles of squealing 'warning' before giving out completely. Plenty of time to get to AutoZone to buy a new one and get home to change it. I have a few other family members with Toyotas that are closing in on 200k that have had NO issues at all.
The only interior problems I hear about with Toyotas are to do with the leather seats that dry up if not maintained, and hey, if that's the worst thing about the interior, then shit. Most of the electronics all still work after several hundred thousand miles.

I know that different people will have different experiences, etc, but statistics don't lie. Japanese are MORE LIKELY to go longer. Not WILL, but MORE LIKELY.


I understand the rust issue. That makes sense to me. Good argument there. I'm not sure about Honda, Nissan, and the others, but didn't Toyota have a buy-back program and a call back with rust issues that they fixed?
And I also understand that there just are some lemons. No way around that at all. I get that this could influence people's opinions on an entire company. So a few people every now and then sure. That makes sense to me. The Japanese make lemons, too.
I also understand that most people don't drive their vehicle to the ground, so reaching 300k+ might not be a good argument. But wouldn't people like to have that option? Wouldn't people like the option to be able to make 140k with ONLY an alternator replacement?

I've never noticed that parts were cheaper for American, honestly. That or 'more available' (with exception to my tongue-in cheek reference to GM parts being EVERYWHERE. The fact that you can pretty much find GM parts at your local dollar store doesn't exactly speak "quality" to me). So the part is not available at the AutoZone across the street. There are most likely 4 other parts houses within 5 minutes that WILL carry the part. That, or they'll have it shipped to the store later that day or by the next morning. Any issues I've come across with 'Yotas were not 'stop you immediately in your tracks' issues, either. They seem to be more forgiving when parts go bad. Give you a little bit of time to get home so you don't have to call a tow truck. Give you a few day/weeks to order the part from Amazon or eBay. Not a guarantee, obviously. Also again, excluding lemons.

I've never owned any European vehicles, so I can't comment personally, but I agree, the cost of ownership does seem to be a lot higher. I've also heard that only specific/OEM parts and fluids can be used for a lot of them, or the warranty could be voided.

I guess my biggest argument is statistics. If you don't like imports because you simply prefer the look/style of your American vehicle, then sure. But if you want the vehicle that will statistically (not 100% guaranteed) get you the furthest with least issue, get a Japanese. I just don't understand who'd be willing to bet $30k+ on a statistically losing horse when the statistically winning horse only costs $31k. Makes no sense to me. Sure the loser horse COULD win, but most likely, it will not.
I don't know. Just a rant. Most definitely off-topic. Ha.

 

[amalik]

I occasionally go on Wikipedia/ Google bursts on random topics just for the sake of learning, and whenever I do this concerning vehicles, I always seem come across an amusing side argument; American vs Japanese.
There is always someone who says (truthfully) that statistically, Japanese vehicles are more likely to be reliable, and there are always those people who are ready to crucify him for saying so.

This is me flaming a bit, but why are people so unwilling to acknowledge that statistically, Japanese vehicles are more likely to last longer? Not saying that an American made CAN'T last 250k+, but most all Japanese vehicles last at least that long, if not much longer.
I'm all for keeping money in 'Murica, but I'm not going to throw my money away on something when its competition is world renowned for regularly lasting twice as long...

I read in Mopar forums that "my truck provide 200k miles of faithful service", and here, if your 4runner doesn't get past 200k, you're pretty much disowned and not allowed back on the forum. It's kinda like learning to walk; it's just expected. You're happy when it happens, but not surprised at all. It's expected that you'll go much further than that, actually.

I just don't see how people don't get this. Sure, 'Yotas might cost a few hundred more at the dealership, but if they last twice as long, it's a no brainer. No harder to work on either and parts are easily obtained as well so I'm not sure where that idea came from. Maybe from the 70s, but geez, guys.

I always love the argument that you can find ANY GM part at a parts house. This doesn't say convenience to me; this tells me that they break so much that you better have a steady supply of parts immediately on hand.

I was just looking up the GM 3.4 v6 (to compare to the Toyota 3.4) and someone was saying how they HATED their 3.4 bowtie, but WOULD NOT TOUCH an import because "AMERICA!"... Geez. I find it hard not to join those forums just to troll 7 year old threads...

Just a funny thing I felt like mentioning.

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Are you aware Corolla's, Camry's, Tundra's, and Tacoma's are all manufactured in the US/Mexico?

Is buying a Tundra that is made in San Antonio really driving an 'Import' because some group of engineers in Japan did some Autocad designs on it over there?

Also, since 2000+, Toyota's track record has been less than stellar on a lot vehicles (The unintended acceleration lawsuit that killed many people, other recalls, generally low quality reported on newer LandCruisers/Tacoma's etc both on this forum and TW).

Hell, not as bad as VW emissions scandal or American junk found dead on road-side, but just sayin'.

IMHO, the ultra-reliability, longevity, and manufacturing excellence & toughness of the pickup/1st/2nd/3rd/4th gen T4R's and other Toyota classics is a thing of the past.

Maybe Lexus is the only comparable now. Even if something comes out of Japan though, it's a lesser-quality version than if it came out of Japan 15-20 years ago.

The way of the world... we are all doing good on keeping our 3rd/4th/etc gens alive now, but they won't last forever.

 

[AntleredRuin]

That's the thing; I don't care where it was built, as long as it works well. It might technically be assembled in the States, but it was still designed with the same ideals that made Toyota the company that it currently is. The design is still focused on reliability, not simple power or looks. And yes, some people still believe that the Tundra is an 'import/ricer'. That does not matter to me, but apparently does to some people. Hence my creating this thread. (not just for the Tundra, but you get my point)

It's VERY obvious that Toyota does not focus as much on sheer power or bling as its competitors (with the exception of the 5.7 iForce, which was just to make it comparable to other work trucks. Note how in '06, before the 5.7 came out, the 'Yota 4.7 (in use since '98) made a max of 271 HP, when all its competitors were making 300+ HP. Then, in 2007, after several years of R&D, the 5.7 came out, starting at 381 HP. Several years behind its competitors, but when released, completely owned. A VERY reliable engine, as well.)

Toyota has almost always statistically been last to the game with ANY new idea, and they almost always have brought the most reliable version. They take their time to research. The Big3 seems jumps on any slight power edge or interior design and worries about the reliability consequences later, usually with a better quality version a few years down the line, after listening to thousands (millions?) of complaints and several million dollars of warranties. Toyota takes its time to properly research and develop and THEN releases its product. Bad things can still happen (and have, noting your throttle lawsuit and callbacks, etc), but FAR less than if they jumped the gun like most other manufacturers.

I mean, hell, for another example, Toyota is just starting using its 3.5 V6 in its Tacomas that makes 'only' 278 HP, when Ford is using a 2.7 V6 turboed ecoboost that makes 325 HP. Toyota has been using it's 3.5 (or variants of, at least) in several other vehicles for the last several years (different applications and different output numbers) and they've focused on bettering the design. HP numbers are getting higher, but not at the expense of compromising reliability.
Ford 'discovers' turbocharging all of a sudden and it seemed like overnight, every vehicle in their lineup had a 300+HP option, even though the EcoBoosts have had their fair share of issues directly related to the turbo. A 325 HP Fiesta looks great on paper, but will it last you as long as you think it should? Things are evening out now, but in hindsight, they probably should have done a bit more R&D before implementing their EcoBoost. Could have save thousand of consumer headaches, and could have saved Ford millions of dollars.

My point is that even including the past few years (2000+ to use amalik's point) Japanese still seems to be a generally all over more stable / reliable option. It won't have the latest bells and whistles, it won't be the most powerful, and it might not be the prettiest, but overall cost of ownership will be lower due to it simply breaking less, and all this can be traced back to Toyota (other Japanese as well) taking their time to properly research. Again, not 100%, but a general comparison.

 

[00Sebby]

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

There is a difference between "more reliable" and "lasts longer". I'll give you that Japanese autos tend to be more reliable as they embraced Continuous Improvement as part of their manufacturing culture way before the US did and the US has been playing catchup ever since. However, if you drill down statistically the reliability gap between Japan and US has narrowed considerably. Forums are full of anecdotal evidence and are not good indicators of reliability because everyone is more apt to complain about an issue than to brag about all the trouble-free miles they get. Having started driving in a '74 Nova and a Fiat 128 Rally, and putting up with all the 80's crap, modern cars are pretty darn good regardless of make.

As for "lasts longer", for a long time Japanese cars were considered disposable, both in terms of design and Japanese law. I learned this back in the '80 working for a Japanese manufacturer. They wanted their cars to be "perfect" out the showroom floor but after 5 or so years they wanted you to buy a new one. Therefore, rust, cracked dashes, weak interiors, outside trim, etc. This has changed because the American market doesn't work that way. But it is also the reason you don't see near as many old Japanese cars "last as long" as American cars. American cars, statistically, have lasted longer. :biggrin1:

Lastly, a lot of this perception is myth due to the playing field being leveled. As someone else pointed out, a Japanese make is often no longer made in Japan as is the same for US makes. Even JD Powers dispels this myth with their 2015 IQS survey. I'm sure some statistics were involved. :nod:

"In the 2015 IQS, of the 10 U.S. nameplates in the study, five performed above the industry average. Chevrolet, Lincoln, Buick, Ford, and Ram all outperformed the industry average of 112 PP100. For reference, only four in 10 Japanese brands and four in 11 European brands performed above the industry average in the same study.

Not only are American car companies building higher-quality cars, the cars they are building are more stylish, more rewarding to drive, and contain more technology than many consumers give them credit for. In the J.D. Power 2015 U.S. Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout (APEAL) Study,SM six in 10 American car brands score higher than industry average. On top of that, nearly one-third (nine in 26) of the segment award recipients are American models."

 

[AntleredRuin]

Haha no I get that. I'm not even saying longevity in terms of literal years, I'm saying longevity in terms of total miles.
Yeah, you don't see many 'classic' Japanese cars and there is a mass following for 'classic' American cars. American cars literally have lasted longer, simply because they are desirable and powerful.
But how many American vehicles do you see regularly getting 300k+ miles without much trouble?
A '65 Mustang is neat, and technically has lasted a long time, but if it's at 300k+, there's no way (most likely) that it's all original.
I agree that ALL auto makers have gotten better, especially since the 70s.
I know we're getting into 'new generations' of vehicles, so only time will tell, but I'd still bet on the Japanese, simply based on history.
Even if for whatever reason the piddly stuff breaks easier than older generations, I'd still think the actual mechanics, the literal driving force of the vehicle, would get more miles easier than its competition.

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[T4R2014]

Too bad Toyota can't put a frame under a Tacoma that won't suffer from excessive corrosion issues.

 

[AntleredRuin]

Too bad Toyota can't put a frame under a Tacoma that won't suffer from excessive corrosion issues.

True

 

[00Sebby]

Haha no I get that. I'm not even saying longevity in terms of literal years, I'm saying longevity in terms of total miles.
Yeah, you don't see many 'classic' Japanese cars and there is a mass following for 'classic' American cars. American cars literally have lasted longer, simply because they are desirable and powerful.
But how many American vehicles do you see regularly getting 300k+ miles without much trouble?
A '65 Mustang is neat, and technically has lasted a long time, but if it's at 300k+, there's no way (most likely) that it's all original.
I agree that ALL auto makers have gotten better, especially since the 70s.
I know we're getting into 'new generations' of vehicles, so only time will tell, but I'd still bet on the Japanese, simply based on history.
Even if for whatever reason the piddly stuff breaks easier than older generations, I'd still think the actual mechanics, the literal driving force of the vehicle, would get more miles easier than its competition.

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I've owned a few Jeeps that went reliably past the 200k mark. Even my old Trans-Am went to about 170k on the stock Pontiac 400. I also had a Mustang GT 5.0 that went to 225k with no problems other than replacing a clutch due to wear. My problem is I rarely keep a vehicle long enough to see it to 300k miles and few people do. Again, personal observations can't be substituted for actual data but I see an awful lot of old American junk on the highways that is actually running and yet does not seem to have the value to actually fix anything major if it had happened. Makes me think these cars/trucks would be original.

There are lots of good American drivetrains out there, especially in trucks. Suburbans for example are routinely very high mileage when sold used. At 300k you are looking at 15 to 20 year old vehicles = 80s and 90s. I'd say there are plenty of Camrys, Toyota trucks, Nissans, etc of that era running around with no major issues. I'd also guess there are plenty of Chevys, Buicks, Big 3 trucks, Ford Taurus, etc. still on the road with no major issues. I think since no one is really collecting data on used-up vehicles it goes back to what we want to think. I've had enough experience with both domestics and imports that I'm comfortable that most, short of modern BMW products, are going to be fairly trouble free for at least 200k miles.

 

[AntleredRuin]

I guess that is the main point (that was made earlier, I know) Most people don't drive their vehicles to the ground. They might put 200k on it, but after that they're usually done. So a 300k+ lifespan might not be a good argument for these people.

I know that trucks DO statistically last longer than cars (not that cars can't last a long time).
Look up any 'reliable vehicle comparison' and it will be dominated by trucks and body-on-frame SUVs. They are built sturdier because they are meant for 'work'. So if not 'worked' too hard, they can last damn near forever. This is especially true with heavy duty or 1/2+ trucks.


Let me word it this way: American vehicles CAN last a long time. It seems to me, though (and I would assume to a lot of other people, based on the 'reliable Japanese car' stigma) that the Japanese makes don't release as many 'complete lemon vehicle product lines' AS American.
The only 'terrible' Toyota engine I've ever heard of is the 3.Slow V6, and that's ONLY because of the headgasket issue that can be easily prevented my changing your head gaskets every 150k miles. If that's the worst thing to happen to it, that's still a kick-ass engine. II know I'm missing a few others, but still.

And while I've heard of several amazing American engines (The Jeep 4.0, the Ford 5.0, the GM 5.7/5.3 like you've said), I've also heard of several 'complete design failures' on the American side though. Engines that are chronically problematic pretty much out of the factory. The GM/Chevy 3.6 and inline5 series, Ford 3.0 and 4.0. Etc Etc Etc. Chrysler has seemed to be pretty consistent with engine reliability, but they all seem to start showing age around 170k-200k.
There are exceptions to all of these, of course. I've heard of a lot of the Ford 4.0s going to 225k, but most seem to start being problematic closer to 100k.
There just seem to be more 'complete design lemons' than Japanese vehicle. Less consistent all around than Japanese.

I agree, if you're looking for only 200k, then most anything will be ok, provided it's been properly maintained. If you want further, though, it's a different story.

 

[T5RUNNER]

I think you are massively over generalizing this. There have been terrible Japanese cars and there still are. This is not the 80s and 90s where there was a significant gap in reliability. You could argue that those obsessed with Toyotas that will pay a large premium for one are just as illogical.

You also answered your own question to an extent. Many people just want what they want and Japanese companies tend to be slower to respond to market trends. Manufacturers design for new car buyers, not the used market, and many new car buyers don't keep their cars very long so they could care less about getting to 300,000.

 

[AntleredRuin]

I think you are massively over generalizing this. There have been terrible Japanese cars and there still are. This is not the 80s and 90s where there was a significant gap in reliability. You could argue that those obsessed with Toyotas that will pay a large premium for one are just as illogical.

You also answered your own question to an extent. Many people just want what they want and Japanese companies tend to be slower to respond to market trends. Manufacturers design for new car buyers, not the used market, and many new car buyers don't keep their cars very long so they could care less about getting to 300,000.

I know I'm over-generalizing, but that's all anyone can do without REAL accurate statistics (that the internet doesn't provide often enough, unfortunately). I know that forums are not a completely accurate way of getting numbers. I know that everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

HOWEVER, my biggest 'complaint' is the idea of 'ricer junk' compared to American when the general worldwide consensus is that they will outlast anything else. Even if you don't keep it till the wheels fall off, they will fall off under someone else's ownership. Even if you don't keep it till 300k+, it can still get there. You turn around and trade it in, and get more trade in value, because it still has A LOT of life left (compared to American). Yes, there are terrible Jap cars, but not as many.
Honestly, go look at any other forum for American vehicles (even newer ones) and they BRAG when they get to 200k and everyone is jealous! It's an AMAZING accomplishment.
With (most) Japanese vehicles, this is just expected. 200k is no big deal. Again, I know that forums are not accurate for numbers, but where else do we get them? (for several decades of vehicle worth/ reliability)
Vehicle stereotypes exist for a reason.

 

[T5RUNNER]

My point is that the facts do not back up your stereotype of Japanese cars being hugely superior.

200,000 is the new 100,000 and STATISTICALLY most vehicles don't make it there, but it isn't because they can't. Crashes and general neglect kill most cars now, regardless of brand.

 

[T4R2014]

America Automakers can build phenomenally good cars and engines if they want. I routinely strike conversations with NYC taxi and limo drivers about their cars. They can all tell you that the Crown Vics and Town Cars powered by the single cam 4.6 are legendary. It's a shame that they are dwindling away day by day and being replaced by Camrys. Also look at the LS1, GM knew what they were doing. The Cummins is a fantastic engine as well, if you can ignore the coal rolling, "I'd rather be Cummin than strokin" fanatics that think their cousins are hot.

 

[00Sebby]

This thread is kind of like discussing oil brands or religion. People are gonna believe what they're comfortable with or have been told to believe with very little physical evidence or data to back it up. Does that mean I don't have a favorite brand of oil or do not believe in a higher power? No. It just means we have different viewpoints and experiences and will continue to shape the "evidence" we see into our own belief paradigms. :thumb:

 

[T4R2014]

But I thought it was synonymously understood that every 90's Ford Taurus is a horrific pile of crap?

 

[00Sebby]

But I thought it was synonymously understood that every 90's Ford Taurus is a horrific pile of crap?

We're not discerning whether they are piles of crap or not, just that the pile of crap still runs. The hypothesis is that Japanese piles of crap last longer than US made piles of crap. As I was out today, I saw a 95-ish Taurus wagon that made me think of this thread. Looked almost mint with some gray-haired lady driving it.

 

[cfranck1]

Got to love the 80-90's Taurus!!