Apple Opposes Judge Order to Break Encryption

[BlackWorksInc]

Bad people.
Powerful device.
Can't be cracked.

I think I remember the Germans having something like this a few years back.

There's your history lesson people.

Yes and the Germans were also led into that war by a single man manipulating the people's fears and frustrations to give him excessive power over them. That went extremely well... as did for his Italian friend and Russian friend as well who used the same tactics.

"By any means possible" can also include turning the US into a police state ruled by a very "over protective" Government that doesn't want anything bad to happen to it's subjects... I mean citizens, so it controls every aspect of their lives via Martial Law.

It's a very extreme result, but the more we blur the grey area between the US and a Police State, the less extreme a possibility it becomes. Having come from a police state where tanks and military enforcing what the government thought was best, I'd rather not see the US go down that road.

There was an oddly accurate movie (The Siege, 1998) that came out before 9/11 happened that had a very similar plot line to the events of 9/11 and how things went afterwards. Granted it's a fictional movie with Bruce Willis & Denzel Washington in it, but it is a bit uncanny how it parallels what happens 3yrs later and shows a possible progression to a "Martial Law" situation.

The bottom line being that giving a government too much control over it's people can end badly. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" always comes to mind in this situation.

 

[BrianSD_42]

Ultimately, I think the courts will decide. Apple has been given what appears to be a lawful order. We'll see how it plays out. Peace.

How is it a lawful order to tell a company to create a new product, one that does not presently exist and for which there will be no profit, just so the government can use said product to break the encryption of its citizens electronic devices?

There is a simple solution for the US government, make encryption illegal. That is all.

Anything short of that and Apple can do whatever it damn well pleases.

 

[hikenbike]

Yes and the Germans were also led into that war by a single man manipulating the people's fears and frustrations to give him excessive power over them. That went extremely well... as did for his Italian friend and Russian friend as well who used the same tactics.

"By any means possible" can also include turning the US into a police state ruled by a very "over protective" Government that doesn't want anything bad to happen to it's subjects... I mean citizens, so it controls every aspect of their lives via Martial Law.

It's a very extreme result, but the more we blur the grey area between the US and a Police State, the less extreme a possibility it becomes. Having come from a police state where tanks and military enforcing what the government thought was best, I'd rather not see the US go down that road.

There was an oddly accurate movie (The Siege, 1998) that came out before 9/11 happened that had a very similar plot line to the events of 9/11 and how things went afterwards. Granted it's a fictional movie with Bruce Willis & Denzel Washington in it, but it is a bit uncanny how it parallels what happens 3yrs later and shows a possible progression to a "Martial Law" situation.

The bottom line being that giving a government too much control over it's people can end badly. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" always comes to mind in this situation.

Your statement here about a movie is particularly worrisome.

It's a movie. It is not reality or anything even close.

And it's for exactly this reason why a pig dirt bag like Trump is relevant......he plays to movie generated fears for millions of people who blend Hollywood with reality.

 

[Thai]

Link: DOJ seeks to force Apple to extract data from dozen other iPhones: WSJ | Reuters

Slippery slope? Hmmmm....

Quote:

The U.S. Justice Department is looking at court orders forcing Apple Inc (AAPL.O) to help investigators extract data from iPhones in about a dozen undisclosed cases across the country, the Wall Street Journal reported, citing sources.

This move comes on the heels of the San Bernardino, California, shooting case.

However, the details of these dozen cases are not yet public and they do not tend to involve any terrorism charges, the Journal said on Monday.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a reminder of my earlier post:

Link: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2716997-Tim-Cook-Emails-Apple-Employees.html

For those who still have questions about this, PLEASE READ THE LINK.

Quotes:

Some advocates of the government’s order want us to roll back data protections to iOS 7, which we released in September 2013. Starting with iOS 8, we began encrypting data in a way that not even the iPhone itself can read without the user’s passcode, so if it is lost or stolen, our personal data, conversations, financial and health information are far more secure. We all know that turning back the clock on that progress would be a terrible idea.

Our fellow citizens know it, too. Over the past week I’ve received messages from thousands of people in all 50 states, and the overwhelming majority are writing to voice their strong support. One email was from a 13-year-old app developer who thanked us for standing up for "all future generations." And a 30-year Army veteran told me, "Like my freedom, I will always consider my privacy as a treasure."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q&A:

Could Apple build this operating system just once, for this iPhone, and never use it again?

The digital world is very different from the physical world. In the physical world you can destroy something and it’s gone. But in the digital world, the technique, once created, could be used over and over again, on any number of devices.

Law enforcement agents around the country have already said they have hundreds of iPhones they want Apple to unlock if the FBI wins this case. In the physical world, it would be the equivalent of a master key, capable of opening hundreds of millions of locks. Of course, Apple would do our best to protect that key, but in a world where all of our data is under constant threat, it would be relentlessly attacked by hackers and cybercriminals. As recent attacks on the IRS systems and countless other data breaches have shown, no one is immune to cyberattacks.

Again, we strongly believe the only way to guarantee that such a powerful tool isn’t abused and doesn’t fall into the wrong hands is to never create it.

 

[hikenbike]

Link: DOJ seeks to force Apple to extract data from dozen other iPhones: WSJ | Reuters



Slippery slope? Hmmmm....



Quote:



The U.S. Justice Department is looking at court orders forcing Apple Inc (AAPL.O) to help investigators extract data from iPhones in about a dozen undisclosed cases across the country, the Wall Street Journal reported, citing sources.



This move comes on the heels of the San Bernardino, California, shooting case.



However, the details of these dozen cases are not yet public and they do not tend to involve any terrorism charges, the Journal said on Monday.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just a reminder of my earlier post:

.........and Apple should gladly and enthusiastically comply with every one of those court orders.

 

[BrianSD_42]

How is it a lawful order to tell a company to create a new product, one that does not presently exist and for which there will be no profit, just so the government can use said product to break the encryption of its citizens electronic devices?

There is a simple solution for the US government, make encryption illegal. That is all. Anything short of that and Apple can do whatever it damn well pleases.

I see a lot of arguing back and forth in this thread with no one able to answer, even at a middle school level, the basic legal question I posed above.

Any takers?


Here's a hint:

* The government CAN create rules that govern how a car must operate and the safety features it must have with each sale and to operate on the US government owned roads. If Congress passes applicable laws then the government CAN forbid sale or possession of vehicles that don't meet said standards.

* The government legally CANNOT force Toyota (or any other business) to make a special, "not for sale" car that is just for the US government, one that the government will then use as a special weapon to break into other American citizens cars so it can steal their private property from the trunk.

 

[flighht2k5]

I see a lot of arguing back and forth in this thread with no one able to answer, even at a middle school, the level the basic legal question I posed above.

Any takers?

Well in socialism it's legal, in a republic it's not. What do we live in anymore? I would say it's leaning towards socialism.

 

[RedSled]

Well in socialism it's legal, in a republic it's not. What do we live in anymore? I would say it's leaning towards socialism.

Because people will not stand up for their rights, to much trust in the government is not a good thing.

 

[msp]

How is it a lawful order to tell a company to create a new product, one that does not presently exist and for which there will be no profit, just so the government can use said product to break the encryption of its citizens electronic devices?

There is a simple solution for the US government, make encryption illegal. That is all.

Anything short of that and Apple can do whatever it damn well pleases.

I guess your standard then is that a company doesn't have to comply with a search warrant or order if there is a cost associated with it. And, I'd be willing to bet that the product does exist in the bowels of Apple, unless Mr. Cook says differently under oath. Yep, ban encryption, no problem, easy.....right. While we're at it, let's ban all guns too so we solve the violence problem. Well, that's it for me fellas, I'm checking out of the Off Topic forum. Argue away...

 

[flighht2k5]

I guess your standard then is that a company doesn't have to comply with a search warrant or order if there is a cost associated with it. And, I'd be willing to bet that the product does exist in the bowels of Apple, unless Mr. Cook says differently under oath. Yep, ban encryption, no problem, easy.....right. While we're at it, let's ban all guns too so we solve the violence problem. Well, that's it for me fellas, I'm checking out of the Off Topic forum. Argue away...

Banning guns doesn't solve violence guns are inanimate objects and unable to act out in violence. The human being pulling the trigger is what is acting out in violence.

 

[BrianSD_42]

I guess your standard then is that a company doesn't have to comply with a search warrant or order if there is a cost associated with it. And, I'd be willing to bet that the product does exist in the bowels of Apple, unless Mr. Cook says differently under oath. Yep, ban encryption, no problem, easy.....right. While we're at it, let's ban all guns too so we solve the violence problem. Well, that's it for me fellas, I'm checking out of the Off Topic forum. Argue away...

Peace out then :girl:


BTW, you clearly don't understand that software, even a forked version of Apple's OS, is a PRODUCT which requires engineering R&D, test, development, opportunity cost (engineers could be doing something else with their time) and long term support.

To demand that Apple be forced to create a new product is ridiculous. All the other companies have voluntarily complied with the US government by writing their own back doors and just handing the information over. But there is no federal law mandating back doors be implemented before a software product is put on the market.

Adults - please explain how the US government should be able to FORCE a company (or private individual business owner) to create a new software product, one that can never be sold, and one that is not required under any current US law.

You guys keep mentioning socialism but actually the direct control of Corporations by The State is much more like Fascism than Socialism.


:focus:

 

[flighht2k5]

Peace out then :girl:


BTW, you clearly don't understand that software, even a forked version of Apple's OS, is a PRODUCT which requires engineering R&D, test, development, opportunity cost (engineers could be doing something else with their time) and long term support.

To demand that Apple be forced to create a new product is ridiculous. All the other companies have voluntarily complied with the US government by writing their own back doors and just handing the information over. But there is no federal law mandating back doors be implemented before a software product is put on the market.

Adults - please try to explain how the US government should be able to FORCE a company to create a new software product, one that can never be sold, and one that is not required under any current US law.


:focus:

The gov shouldn't be able to force any private company to do something. That's called crony capitalism.

 

[nevada]

But your privacy is NOT more important than MY security, jack.

clearly its not, not to you.

you have no right to trade MY privacy for YOUR security.

since your security is not important to you, you can offer up YOUR privacy in its place. turn in all your passwords, let the all powerful government take care of it for you.

I think you're all getting way over dramatic. The times require that they need to do this. They don't invent this stuff, but they have to deal with it and you want them to "keep us safe" by having answers and being preventative.......and then you want to handcuff them.

their job is to protect this country. they have failed MISERABLY.

You can give up your rights but you better not give up mine.

exactly this.

And yet I believe YOUR security is more important than what I keep on my phone.

then turn in YOUR passwords. but MINE are off limits.

The gov shouldn't be able to force any private company to do something. That's called crony capitalism.

the government shouldn't be able to force anyone to purchase a product as well.

 

[hikenbike]

clearly its not, not to you.

you have no right to trade MY privacy for YOUR security.

since your security is not important to you, you can offer up YOUR privacy in its place. turn in all your passwords, let the all powerful government take care of it for you.


their job is to protect this country. they have failed MISERABLY.


exactly this.
then turn in YOUR passwords. but MINE are off limits.




the government shouldn't be able to force anyone to purchase a product as well.

You're assuming......

I keep my passwords, important or not, on my phone. - YOU'RE WRONG

The big bad government has an interest in cracking my phone. - YOU'RE WRONG AGAIN


How do you live in a country that has such a horrible, reckless, irresponsible government that is completely incapable of protecting its citizens on ANY level with any competence? You owe it to yourself and your family to leave such a place and get them out of harms way.

Get out from under your kitchen table, champ. Its a pretty good country out there you should be proud of.

 

[nevada]

You're assuming......

I keep my passwords, important or not, on my phone. - YOU'RE WRONG

The big bad government has an interest in cracking my phone. - YOU'RE WRONG AGAIN


How do you live in a country that has such a horrible, reckless, irresponsible government that is completely incapable of protecting its citizens on ANY level with any competence? You owe it to yourself and your family to leave such a place and get them out of harms way.

Get out from under your kitchen table, champ. Its a pretty good country out there you should be proud of.

im not wrong. you don't value your privacy, give up YOUR passwords.
I don't give a shit what you do with YOURS, but you have NO right to MINE.

 

[ben550]

Get out from under your kitchen table, champ. Its a pretty good country out there you should be proud of.

If that is how you feel about this issue of privacy and the citizen's sovereignty, I recommend you go down to your county courthouse, find the sheriff's office and give him a copy of your house keys, your car keys, the key's to your office/place of work, the keys to your safe etc... Just in case they need them to help solve a crime at some point in the future... after all you have nothing to hide.

I am surprised you and so many others are willing to surrender their own sovereignty so readily.

Just remember. Big government makes small citizens.

 

[hikenbike]

im not wrong. you don't value your privacy, give up YOUR passwords.
I don't give a shit what you do with YOURS, but you have NO right to MINE.

You live in fear of the same government that protects you and are wildly over dramatic.

Since you keep bringing it up......what relationship do my "passwords" have to my phone?

 

[hikenbike]

If that is how you feel about this issue of privacy and the citizen's sovereignty, I recommend you go down to your county courthouse, find the sheriff's office and give him a copy of your house keys, your car keys, the key's to your office/place of work, the keys to your safe etc... Just in case they need them to help solve a crime at some point in the future... after all you have nothing to hide.

I am surprised you and so many others are willing to surrender their own sovereignty so readily.

Just remember. Big government makes small citizens.

As I am surprised by your inability to sacrifice the information on a phone in the spirit of protecting the security of potentially many other people.

My keys? My house? My car? What??? I thought we were talking about a phone?

You're selfish and juvenile. Look forward to seeing Apple lose this.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Your statement here about a movie is particularly worrisome.

It's a movie. It is not reality or anything even close.

And it's for exactly this reason why a pig dirt bag like Trump is relevant......he plays to movie generated fears for millions of people who blend Hollywood with reality.

That's actually the point... it's a fictional movie about Manhattan becoming a police state due to a terrorist attack. The fact that the fictional exaggerated movie parallels real life somewhat closely is what is disturbing!

 

[SupaSupra]

As I am surprised by your inability to sacrifice the information on a phone in the spirit of protecting the security of potentially many other people.

My keys? My house? My car? What??? I thought we were talking about a phone?

You're selfish and juvenile. Look forward to seeing Apple lose this.

Not so fast. Looks like some members of congress don't agree with the FBI.

Congressman tells FBI to back down on Apple - Feb. 23, 2016