Are wheel spacers SAFE??
- Thread starter mario4r
- Start date
Yep. The one part (4 technically) you don't want to f'k with on a vehicle is the part that your life depends on which are the wheels.
Diesel
New member
Agree....yet the general problem is that there aren't a ton of options for 17" wheels which meet this criteria.
Has anybody done the math on a 2015 TEP wheel with 1.25" Spidertrax to determine the "effective" offset/backspace?
That might be the golden goose of this thread....as that's generally "the look" most are trying to achieve.
Jetboy
New member
Be careful in replying on the jeep guys analysis.
What's important to remember is that the fasteners are only there to provide clamping force. Not resist rotation. And wheel failure from adding spacers is generally am issue of friction failure and wheel spinning against the hub. So the real issues are whether the spacer material has a lower coefficient of friction against either they wms or the wheel, whether the spacer is compressible under the force of the fastener, and whether adequate thread interface remains. All of these depend on the starting point and the spacer thickness and material.
For example aluminum spacer between steel wheel and wms likely makes it marginally safer. But steel spacer between aluminum wheel and steel wms is less safe. Anodized spacer is less safe than raw aluminum. And many other variables.
The FEM analysis seems misplaced to me. I don't think they really understand how fasteners work if they are looking at static failure. I wouldn't put much value in that analysis. In fact id put it in the category of engineering nonsense. Is analysis of the wrong problem and does nothing to indicate whether spacers are safe or not. That's simply not how they fail. Please don't rely on that for much. It's not wrong per se. It's simply not useful.
For me, I would buy a proper wheel for what I want. Unless there's a very small - 1/4 inch space needed for something like clearing a caliper or a remote resirvoir can then I might use a spacer. At some point your really stressing the hub, ball joints, and wheel bearings to much for long service life. On my trail rig with 12" wide wheels and 2" back spacing I know I'm dramatically shortening the life of the bearings but it's not a daily driver so I don't all that much care. And it weighs 3000lbs on big axles. On my 4 runner I wouldn't want to push the bearings that hard. They aren't very big compared to something like a land cruiser. And I've had a few failures on my last mini truck that used similar size bearings.
So I would suggest keep em small. Keep them uncoated. And check your torque a few times after installing.
What's important to remember is that the fasteners are only there to provide clamping force. Not resist rotation. And wheel failure from adding spacers is generally am issue of friction failure and wheel spinning against the hub. So the real issues are whether the spacer material has a lower coefficient of friction against either they wms or the wheel, whether the spacer is compressible under the force of the fastener, and whether adequate thread interface remains. All of these depend on the starting point and the spacer thickness and material.
For example aluminum spacer between steel wheel and wms likely makes it marginally safer. But steel spacer between aluminum wheel and steel wms is less safe. Anodized spacer is less safe than raw aluminum. And many other variables.
The FEM analysis seems misplaced to me. I don't think they really understand how fasteners work if they are looking at static failure. I wouldn't put much value in that analysis. In fact id put it in the category of engineering nonsense. Is analysis of the wrong problem and does nothing to indicate whether spacers are safe or not. That's simply not how they fail. Please don't rely on that for much. It's not wrong per se. It's simply not useful.
For me, I would buy a proper wheel for what I want. Unless there's a very small - 1/4 inch space needed for something like clearing a caliper or a remote resirvoir can then I might use a spacer. At some point your really stressing the hub, ball joints, and wheel bearings to much for long service life. On my trail rig with 12" wide wheels and 2" back spacing I know I'm dramatically shortening the life of the bearings but it's not a daily driver so I don't all that much care. And it weighs 3000lbs on big axles. On my 4 runner I wouldn't want to push the bearings that hard. They aren't very big compared to something like a land cruiser. And I've had a few failures on my last mini truck that used similar size bearings.
So I would suggest keep em small. Keep them uncoated. And check your torque a few times after installing.
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1engineer
Moderator
Exactly.
BlackWorksInc
New member
It seemed to me that the FEM analysis simply assumed a set of properly installed SpiderTraxx and tested them accordingly. Theoretically if they were installed correctly then the SpiderTraxx should not rotate at all and be a solid component of the hub and wheel; so load forces and stresses should translate into the wheel. Granted I imagine they didn't bother to mention shearing forces on the studs because the studs were equal to or greater than OEM units and thus would have similar failure points at a shearing level.
Now it would have been interesting to see some testing with loose, slightly loose, or improperly installed units to get an idea of how they fail.
1engineer
Moderator
Pulling from a long time of design experience, the biggest cause of failure on a component such as this is not the actual component itself but the "human" factor of installation and maintenance.
Untrained people mess stuff up. Read some of the build threads here. Would you want to buy a vehicle modded by them?
If I were in the used 4Runner buyer's market and I came across a modded (suspension, spacers, tires, wheels, bumper, skid, etc) one I liked my first question would be "Who did the work?" If it turned out to be the owner then I would automatically deduct the time it will take me to take all his "mods" apart, fix what he F'd up, (again, read some of the build threads) and reinstall things properly.
There is a reason why people like Icon and AEV are in business and there is a reason why individually modded vehicles get no extra money for those mods when it is traded or sold.
Bottom line: If quality spacers are used and install and maintenance instructions are followed to the letter then they are safe. Otherwise I wouldn't take it out of my driveway.
LandCruiser
New member
oljedi11950
New member
^^@1engineer !! Properly installed ! Had them on 05 for over 30k NEVER a problem , stay on top of them . 5k later on 11' no problem !
Jetboy
New member
Have you ever broken a wheel going down the highway? I've never done it on the road. In my opinion actually breaking a wheel is extremely unlikely to cause a dangerous situation. Every time I've broken a wheel it was offroad at slow speed and was immediately obvious. I just don't think that's a real concern when evaluating safety of wheel spacers.
Spacers or wheels coming lose is the danger that I think accounts for 99.9999% of the risk.
Fwiw there should be no shearing force applied to the lugs ever. If there is that means they've come loose. In a shear loading lug nuts wouldn't last very long.
Adding another component like a spacer introduces lots of new variables. If it's like spider Trax for example now your using 3 dissimilar metals. Is expansion and contraction with heat going to cause a greater change in tension on the lugs? Is the spacer uniform in expansion? Because it's not effectively braced by the wheel is it going to expand outward at 600 degrees? By how much? Are the studs embedded in the aluminum spacer going to be as stable as the original ones in steel?
There's a ton of new variables being introduced. Maybe they work. Maybe they don't. I think it's application specific. I don't think breaking a wheel or analysis of that has any value in the question of safety based on my experience of when your likely to have a dangerous failure. At speed when a wheel comes loose.
Ultimately I guess I think their assumption that the spider Trax will not come loose and will remain static with heat and cooling etc is simply wrong. It's making the system less safe by adding more failure possibilities. Is it too dangerous? Probably not. It's it more dangerous? Absolutely.
Ducmonsta
New member
Hey on this topic of spacers....
Is there actually a 5th gen "Wheel/Offset" thread or source for reference that I can read that anyone knows of?
I for one, am of the mindset of less parts, less possible points of failure... But I have NO IDEA what wheel/rim offset would be appropriate for the 5th gen???
Any tips are appreciated.
Is there actually a 5th gen "Wheel/Offset" thread or source for reference that I can read that anyone knows of?
I for one, am of the mindset of less parts, less possible points of failure... But I have NO IDEA what wheel/rim offset would be appropriate for the 5th gen???
Any tips are appreciated.
Shannon Omar
New member
wheel spacers are safe or not
I got wheel shake while driving and under braking,so I tried to move wheel spacers.Then no shaking.
Buy my friend got a good deal from this site (www.hexautoparts.com) for a set of 4 pieces wheel spacers ,installed them,his car runs well,without any problem.
Not sure why.
Is that possible some wheel spacers are good but some not ?
I got wheel shake while driving and under braking,so I tried to move wheel spacers.Then no shaking.
Buy my friend got a good deal from this site (www.hexautoparts.com) for a set of 4 pieces wheel spacers ,installed them,his car runs well,without any problem.
Not sure why.
Is that possible some wheel spacers are good but some not ?
1996_Valencia_Owen
Banned
Not a fan of spacers, as they can prematurely wear out the wheel bearings, not just cause a risk for the studs.
This is because you're effectively going from a ~1" lever arm to a ~2-3" lever arm on the hub (so over 100% increase).
That said, it might only cause failures at 100k instead of 200k or whatever... and the hubs are built pretty tough... but I just wouldn't want to risk it.
Last thing is that the spacers also increase the effective suspension softness by about 5-10% by making the whole suspension travel a little more exaggerated. This can actually help if the suspension feels stiff, but if it's already soft, it could make it a little wallowy.
This is because you're effectively going from a ~1" lever arm to a ~2-3" lever arm on the hub (so over 100% increase).
That said, it might only cause failures at 100k instead of 200k or whatever... and the hubs are built pretty tough... but I just wouldn't want to risk it.
Last thing is that the spacers also increase the effective suspension softness by about 5-10% by making the whole suspension travel a little more exaggerated. This can actually help if the suspension feels stiff, but if it's already soft, it could make it a little wallowy.
83Mule
New member
Considering a Hub-Centric spacer has quite a lip to overcome before movement off center occurs, if you keep them snug there is little to fear. Wheel bearing won't be loaded any worse than a high offset wheel would do either. Toyota over-builds strength and I doubt the increase in wear will matter.....and history seems to bear that out. Keep the assembly torqued and the paranoia will fade.
TK-422
New member
I have had 1" spacers on my 2015 for a few years and have not been offroading in over a year. Last week my wife and I were heading out to go grocery shopping and I felt a weird sway in the back so I immediately pulled onto a side street and heard a loud bang.
I started checking the tires because it felt like loose lug nuts. When I got to the last one, left rear, It moved quite a lot. I grabbed the lug wrench and they were all tight. I thought it might be a loose couple of lugs on the spacer. I used the crappy bottle jack to lift the axle enough to remove the wheel and it fell off. All six studs had sheared off.
Loose lugs on the spacer? No all of them were still tight in the spacer.
I am so glad my instincts had me stop when I did so there was no 100Lb tire flying down the street to hurt anyone and no major damage was caused to my vehicle.
I called AAA and requested a flatbed and the guy helped me with a real jack to get three of the lug nuts on enough to hold the tire on to get it on the tow truck and get it home.
Now the fun begins. With the brake drum / disc combo it's a PITA. There is little room to remove the springs that hold the shoes so I only removed one side and rotated 180* to install the other three studs.
I used a small sledge to hammer out the old studs then a combo of large nuts and washers to pull in the new ones with an impact gun.
After the studs were replaced it's fun getting the shoes back in place with no room to use normal tools. (Hint: put the center spring together first then slip the shoe in place.)
The one problem I gave myself is to rotate the axle I had to step on the brake to shift into neutral a few times and it caused the piston on the caliper to pop all the way out ( should have shoved a block of metal in there but did not think about it at the time). I will fix that tomorrow.
After that the rest of the spacers are coming off.
The spacers were properly hand torqued when installed in rechecked a couple of times since then. I also had American Tire hand torque the tires when installed and again when rotated.
In another thread this cost someone $950 to have it done. It only cost me $50 in parts but a lot of work. I am glad I have the tools and knowledge to do it myself.
I started checking the tires because it felt like loose lug nuts. When I got to the last one, left rear, It moved quite a lot. I grabbed the lug wrench and they were all tight. I thought it might be a loose couple of lugs on the spacer. I used the crappy bottle jack to lift the axle enough to remove the wheel and it fell off. All six studs had sheared off.
Loose lugs on the spacer? No all of them were still tight in the spacer.
I am so glad my instincts had me stop when I did so there was no 100Lb tire flying down the street to hurt anyone and no major damage was caused to my vehicle.
I called AAA and requested a flatbed and the guy helped me with a real jack to get three of the lug nuts on enough to hold the tire on to get it on the tow truck and get it home.
Now the fun begins. With the brake drum / disc combo it's a PITA. There is little room to remove the springs that hold the shoes so I only removed one side and rotated 180* to install the other three studs.
I used a small sledge to hammer out the old studs then a combo of large nuts and washers to pull in the new ones with an impact gun.
After the studs were replaced it's fun getting the shoes back in place with no room to use normal tools. (Hint: put the center spring together first then slip the shoe in place.)
The one problem I gave myself is to rotate the axle I had to step on the brake to shift into neutral a few times and it caused the piston on the caliper to pop all the way out ( should have shoved a block of metal in there but did not think about it at the time). I will fix that tomorrow.
After that the rest of the spacers are coming off.
The spacers were properly hand torqued when installed in rechecked a couple of times since then. I also had American Tire hand torque the tires when installed and again when rotated.
In another thread this cost someone $950 to have it done. It only cost me $50 in parts but a lot of work. I am glad I have the tools and knowledge to do it myself.
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Wouldn’t the stock studs stick out above the one inch spacer? If so, did your rims have recesses to accommodate that? Reason for asking is that I have seen a failure similar to this if the rim doesn’t sit absolutely flush on the spacer. I know that this guys studs were only a few thousandths of an inch too long.
