Ask a Dealership Service Professional. .....

[techno]

4r and GX LX, etc... even though there are no adjustments in the rear you still base front settings off rear wheel settings (thrust angle) Plus the components are bigger, heavier, harder to access and adjust and the alignment rack still costs $50k to buy up front.

When the vehicle is on the lift, the adjustments points are easily accessible, nothing needs to be lifted so weight is a non-issue and size doesn't make any difference. With no adjustment on the rear, there's less work to do and that's a fact. And with less work to do, the process is quicker which frees up the expensive machine for the next customer. I just feel like I'm being taken advantage of under the usual crap excuse of 'it's an suv so everything cost more'.
But thanks for your reply.

 

[CodyY]

how are service writers paid vs. mechanics at the typical car dealership service center? who benefits more from upselling, the mechanic doing the work, or the service writer who schedules it?

Techs are paid an hourly wage based on hours of labor flagged. Doesn't matter who "sold" it.
Oil change is 0.4
Alignment is 1.8
4 tires 1.6
Brakes 2.2 per axle
Diff/tcase service 0.5 each
CV boots 2.8 per side on 4R and GX.
Etc.

Take the labor you flag for the week multiply by your hourly rate and there's your check before taxes. A junior guy makes approx ~$14/hr so he makes $107.80 on the above 7.7hr ticket. A junior guy will take most of the day to do this job.

A Master tech with ASE master certificate makes ~24$ an hr, sometimes more. He pulls $184.80 on the same 7.7 hr job and has it done before lunch. If it takes you an hour, or it takes 10, the job pays what it pays.

Now, remember that the guys don't get paid for the time it takes to pull cars in and out, doing paperwork, cleaning up, etc. They also buy all their own tools (except for special shop tools) and have uniform service charges too. In my time as a tech I amassed approx $30,000 in tools and equipment.

The service advisors at most dealers are paid a percentage of the total RO total. Usually like 1-2% depending on experience. Body estimators basically the same. You'll also have quarterly and monthly contests for detail services and varying other items your specific store is tracking. For me, these are good for 200-500 a month in bonuses.

At my store, I'm not paid on parts so it's only labor hours sold and CSI score (so take care of your service advisors on those surveys. Our CSI bonus alone is 20-30% of my pay. Labor is from 4.00-6.50 per labor hour. My goal is 700+ hrs /month and I've done as high as 875, there are advisors that regularly break 1000 hours in some stores. 12 hr days on your feet and sometimes 6 days a week. If you ever have waited tables, it's like working a mother's day double every day. 3-5 miles a day on average and 10,0000+ steps in a shirt and tie.

 

[CodyY]

When the vehicle is on the lift, the adjustments points are easily accessible, nothing needs to be lifted so weight is a non-issue and size doesn't make any difference. With no adjustment on the rear, there's less work to do and that's a fact. And with less work to do, the process is quicker which frees up the expensive machine for the next customer. I just feel like I'm being taken advantage of under the usual crap excuse of 'it's an suv so everything cost more'.
But thanks for your reply.

How many alignments have you personally performed? Because I couldn't even begin to count how many I've done in 20 years of turning wrenches.

You asked, I answered.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Techs are paid an hourly wage based on hours of labor flagged. Doesn't matter who "sold" it.
Oil change is 0.4
Alignment is 1.8
4 tires 1.6
Brakes 2.2 per axle
Diff/tcase service 0.5 each
CV boots 2.8 per side on 4R and GX.
Etc.

Take the labor you flag for the week multiply by your hourly rate and there's your check before taxes. A junior guy makes approx ~$14/hr so he makes $107.80 on the above 7.7hr ticket. A junior guy will take most of the day to do this job.

A Master tech with ASE master certificate makes ~24$ an hr, sometimes more. He pulls $184.80 on the same 7.7 hr job and has it done before lunch. If it takes you an hour, or it takes 10, the job pays what it pays.

Now, remember that the guys don't get paid for the time it takes to pull cars in and out, doing paperwork, cleaning up, etc. They also buy all their own tools (except for special shop tools) and have uniform service charges too. In my time as a tech I amassed approx $30,000 in tools and equipment.

The service advisors at most dealers are paid a percentage of the total RO total. Usually like 1-2% depending on experience. Body estimators basically the same. You'll also have quarterly and monthly contests for detail services and varying other items your specific store is tracking. For me, these are good for 200-500 a month in bonuses.

At my store, I'm not paid on parts so it's only labor hours sold and CSI score (so take care of your service advisors on those surveys. Our CSI bonus alone is 20-30% of my pay. Labor is from 4.00-6.50 per labor hour. My goal is 700+ hrs /month and I've done as high as 875, there are advisors that regularly break 1000 hours in some stores. 12 hr days on your feet and sometimes 6 days a week. If you ever have waited tables, it's like working a mother's day double every day. 3-5 miles a day on average and 10,0000+ steps in a shirt and tie.

Shit, you guys actually pay your technicians? That's like double the labor for those jobs on anything we see at our dealership. That's not including the free oil changes and services that Toyota is giving away now, and it seems like the whole BG Menu thing is biting us in the ass as the times keep shrinking and yet the service writers keep charging more per job... A lot of techs in the Bay Area would be thrilled to see that kind of non-warranty labor times.

That's another claim for it. I could post a slew of specs for it, but didn't want to take the time to type it.

All I've seen is just simple numbers and stats that while nice (such as viscosity indexes and temperature ratings) don't really tell the whole story of the fluid itself. Which is frustrating...

 

[CodyY]

Shit, you guys actually pay your technicians? That's like double the labor for those jobs on anything we see at our dealership. That's not including the free oil changes and services that Toyota is giving away now, and it seems like the whole BG Menu thing is biting us in the ass as the times keep shrinking and yet the service writers keep charging more per job... A lot of techs in the Bay Area would be thrilled to see that kind of non-warranty labor times.




All I've seen is just simple numbers and stats that while nice (such as viscosity indexes and temperature ratings) don't really tell the whole story of the fluid itself. Which is frustrating...

We go straight off ALL DATA or Mitchell. Whichever is greater.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

We go straight off ALL DATA or Mitchell. Whichever is greater.

Ugh... I am genuinely envious now... It's like pulling teeth to make sure we get paid properly and that the service writers don't try to cut the time afterwards.

 

[02SE]

All I've seen is just simple numbers and stats that while nice (such as viscosity indexes and temperature ratings) don't really tell the whole story of the fluid itself. Which is frustrating...

What specifically do you want to know?

 

[CodyY]

Ugh... I am genuinely envious now... It's like pulling teeth to make sure we get paid properly and that the service writers don't try to cut the time afterwards.

I don't really want to say where, but I work for one of the most respected names in the auto industry. Luxury lines only and we really treat not only the customer like a guest in your home but the associates too.

If you want to relocate let me know

 

[BlackWorksInc]

What specifically do you want to know?

Exactly what it is and it's true compatibility, what additive packages it has and how it differs from T-IV and Dexron VI. Is it an actual Dexron derivative, what's it's true longevity; possible rough formulation data and specifications. Basically I want a detailed report on what it is exactly, what it's compatible with, and how long it truly lasts.

Because Toyota has not been forth coming with that information and in many cases contradictory. First they say even a small amount of T-IV in a WS ATF means the system needs to be flushed with WS ATF immediately and that it is NOT backwards compatible, nor compatible with T-IV at all. Then they start that BS line of "it's lifetime" without specifying what that entails, despite their own literature calling for 60k first service followed by 30k service intervals for "Severe Duty Use." I've heard the "it's supposed to turn Purple/Black when it contacts oxygen, or that's how it's designed" for why it seems to change to the colour of burnt tranny fluid in like 30k (despite that "feature" actually being designed into most transmissions fluid for when it exceeds it's maximum rated temperature.) I've heard from many sources that 100k is the "official, unofficial service interval" from a few people in Toyota, without any real proof to back ANY of these claims up.

The very fact that WS ATF is still this mysteriously unquantified product by even Toyota itself is absolutely ridiculous to me. I'd love to be able to tell forum members who ask that yes you can use a Dexron VI or a T-IV dervitive as an alternative to WS ATF because the data supports it. I do this with members asking about Toyota SLLC alternatives because we know the additive packages and formulation in Toyota SLLC so matching it up to an aftermarket coolant is simple (assuming the manufacturer actually posted all their coolant's information) and yet all we have is that WS ATF might be a highly modified T-IV and/or Dexron VI derivative, it is or isn't compatible with T-IV, it matches an obscure JWS specification I can't find concrete information on, and overall any information related to it on the internet is "circumstantial" at best because there's not enough peer-reviewed or confirmed data to go by.

Drives me up the wall...

I don't really want to say where, but I work for one of the most respected names in the auto industry. Luxury lines only and we really treat not only the customer like a guest in your home but the associates too.

If you want to relocate let me know

I appreciate the offer, there's a strong possibility I will be relocating to Central Oregon this year which makes me very happy. I was just saying that I am envious that you seem to have found a dealership that is more interested in working with it's employees than against them. Ours used to be that way, but after a few service manages and general managers that don't understand how important employee loyalty and trust is, it's gone downhill.

 

[techno]

How many alignments have you personally performed? Because I couldn't even begin to count how many I've done in 20 years of turning wrenches.

You asked, I answered.

I was legitimately thanking you, I appreciate your reply, I just get ticked off when I specifically ask for just a front end alignment but get charged for a four wheel one. I'm just one of those customers who is picky about what gets done.
At my last job after fitting new suspension on solid axle vehicles we did front alignments only and road testing.

 

[02SE]

Exactly what it is and it's true compatibility, what additive packages it has and how it differs from T-IV and Dexron VI. Is it an actual Dexron derivative, what's it's true longevity; possible rough formulation data and specifications. Basically I want a detailed report on what it is exactly, what it's compatible with, and how long it truly lasts.

Because Toyota has not been forth coming with that information and in many cases contradictory. First they say even a small amount of T-IV in a WS ATF means the system needs to be flushed with WS ATF immediately and that it is NOT backwards compatible, nor compatible with T-IV at all. Then they start that BS line of "it's lifetime" without specifying what that entails, despite their own literature calling for 60k first service followed by 30k service intervals for "Severe Duty Use." I've heard the "it's supposed to turn Purple/Black when it contacts oxygen, or that's how it's designed" for why it seems to change to the colour of burnt tranny fluid in like 30k (despite that "feature" actually being designed into most transmissions fluid for when it exceeds it's maximum rated temperature.) I've heard from many sources that 100k is the "official, unofficial service interval" from a few people in Toyota, without any real proof to back ANY of these claims up.

The very fact that WS ATF is still this mysteriously unquantified product by even Toyota itself is absolutely ridiculous to me. I'd love to be able to tell forum members who ask that yes you can use a Dexron VI or a T-IV dervitive as an alternative to WS ATF because the data supports it. I do this with members asking about Toyota SLLC alternatives because we know the additive packages and formulation in Toyota SLLC so matching it up to an aftermarket coolant is simple (assuming the manufacturer actually posted all their coolant's information) and yet all we have is that WS ATF might be a highly modified T-IV and/or Dexron VI derivative, it is or isn't compatible with T-IV, it matches an obscure JWS specification I can't find concrete information on, and overall any information related to it on the internet is "circumstantial" at best because there's not enough peer-reviewed or confirmed data to go by.

Drives me up the wall...

As you probably know by now, I lack the patience for long-winded replies.

Basically, Toyota wants to have a proprietary ATF. Hyundai/Kia do the same thing with their SPIII, SPIV etc. ATF's. Selling their proprietary ATF increases their bottom line.

There are Multi-Vehicle ATF's that will state they are 'Recommended' for those applications. But since Toyota, and Hyundai/kia will not give out the exact specs of their ATF, the 'Multi-Vehicle' ATF isn't officially 'Approved'.

I know of shops that will use those 'Multi-Vehicle' ATF's in WS spec'd Toyota's, and Hyundai/Kia's that spec their proprietary SPIII, SPIV etc. ATF. In some cases even Toyota and Hyundai/Kia Dealers use the Multi-Vehicle ATF's.

At this point we're talking 1000's of cars serviced with the 'Multi-vehicle' ATF's, and hundreds of thousands of miles logged by their customers with no problems attributable to the use of 'Multi-Vehicle' ATF. This is all based on talking to friends and former colleagues, that still work in consumer car repair.

But, if customers are really worried about using the exact spec fluid, it's probably easiest to not argue and let them.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

As you probably know by now, I lack the patience for long-winded replies.

Basically, Toyota wants to have a proprietary ATF. Hyundai/Kia do the same thing with their SPIII, SPIV etc. ATF's. Selling their proprietary ATF increases their bottom line.

There are Multi-Vehicle ATF's that will state they are 'Recommended' for those applications. But since Toyota, and Hyundai/kia will not give out the exact specs of their ATF, the 'Multi-Vehicle' ATF isn't officially 'Approved'.

I know of shops that will use those 'Multi-Vehicle' ATF's in WS spec'd Toyota's, and Hyundai/Kia's that spec their proprietary SPIII, SPIV etc. ATF. In some cases even Toyota and Hyundai/Kia Dealers use the Multi-Vehicle ATF's.

At this point we're talking 1000's of cars serviced with the 'Multi-vehicle' ATF's, and hundreds of thousands of miles logged by their customers with no problems attributable to the use of 'Multi-Vehicle' ATF. This is all based on talking to friends and former colleagues, that still work in consumer car repair.

But, if customers are really worried about using the exact spec fluid, it's probably easiest to not argue and let them.

I get that, a lot of people have been using a JWS 3324 fluid or Dexron VI without any issues; I'm always wary of universal fluids because the reality is that they usually aren't as universal as they claim under scrutiny. Hence why I like data to back up those types of claims.

I don't recommend things I wouldn't feel comfortable doing on my own vehicle, that goes for fluids as well. I'm not a stickler for "factory only", but rather, "make sure it meets factory specs"; in that case second hand reports and "it didn't blow up yet" stories are not valid data sources to go by. So when members ask me on fluid suggestions or opinions I have to say given the lack of concrete days to pay for the factory stuff or use the multiple possible wrong fluids at your own risk, I don't like that answer a lot since I'm supposed to be a factory technician who should have more information than that. :/

Thanks for the reply though, it's nice to get more data.

 

[-dustin]

Techs are paid an hourly wage based on hours of labor flagged. Doesn't matter who "sold" it.
Oil change is 0.4
Alignment is 1.8
4 tires 1.6
Brakes 2.2 per axle
Diff/tcase service 0.5 each
CV boots 2.8 per side on 4R and GX.
Etc.

Take the labor you flag for the week multiply by your hourly rate and there's your check before taxes. A junior guy makes approx ~$14/hr so he makes $107.80 on the above 7.7hr ticket. A junior guy will take most of the day to do this job.

A Master tech with ASE master certificate makes ~24$ an hr, sometimes more. He pulls $184.80 on the same 7.7 hr job and has it done before lunch. If it takes you an hour, or it takes 10, the job pays what it pays.

Now, remember that the guys don't get paid for the time it takes to pull cars in and out, doing paperwork, cleaning up, etc. They also buy all their own tools (except for special shop tools) and have uniform service charges too. In my time as a tech I amassed approx $30,000 in tools and equipment.

The service advisors at most dealers are paid a percentage of the total RO total. Usually like 1-2% depending on experience. Body estimators basically the same. You'll also have quarterly and monthly contests for detail services and varying other items your specific store is tracking. For me, these are good for 200-500 a month in bonuses.

At my store, I'm not paid on parts so it's only labor hours sold and CSI score (so take care of your service advisors on those surveys. Our CSI bonus alone is 20-30% of my pay. Labor is from 4.00-6.50 per labor hour. My goal is 700+ hrs /month and I've done as high as 875, there are advisors that regularly break 1000 hours in some stores. 12 hr days on your feet and sometimes 6 days a week. If you ever have waited tables, it's like working a mother's day double every day. 3-5 miles a day on average and 10,0000+ steps in a shirt and tie.

do the mechanics benefit from CSI scores, or just the service writers?

we always hear that mechanics are more concerned with quantity over quality, but is that actually the case? do dealerships do anything to combat this?

 

[BlackWorksInc]

do the mechanics benefit from CSI scores, or just the service writers?

we always hear that mechanics are more concerned with quantity over quality, but is that actually the case? do dealerships do anything to combat this?

CSI doesn't affect me much as much of the complaints are things the service writer did. But things like, "car was oily inside, technician changed radio settings, ect." could result in reprimands.

Depends on the dealership, a lot of times its the management that's pushing the quantity vs. quality. For example, my SM wants everyone to pull in a minimum of 10hrs. flagged for 8hrs on site (which depending on how well the company pays the techs per job can be easy or difficult.)

 

[02SE]

I get that, a lot of people have been using a JWS 3324 fluid or Dexron VI without any issues; I'm always wary of universal fluids because the reality is that they usually aren't as universal as they claim under scrutiny. Hence why I like data to back up those types of claims.

I don't recommend things I wouldn't feel comfortable doing on my own vehicle, that goes for fluids as well. I'm not a stickler for "factory only", but rather, "make sure it meets factory specs"; in that case second hand reports and "it didn't blow up yet" stories are not valid data sources to go by. So when members ask me on fluid suggestions or opinions I have to say given the lack of concrete days to pay for the factory stuff or use the multiple possible wrong fluids at your own risk, I don't like that answer a lot since I'm supposed to be a factory technician who should have more information than that. :/

Thanks for the reply though, it's nice to get more data.

Yeah, I hear you. I'm also glad I'm no longer in that game.

I do know that I've seen convincing evidence from Engineers and Tribologists, that many of the Multi-Vehicle ATF's they make, are actually superior to those proprietary blends made exclusively for the OEM's.

It's not like Toyota makes their own proprietary ATF. They contract out to a Petrochemical manufacturer, to make it for them.

Those same Engineers that make the proprietary ATF for Toyota, and Hyundai/Kia, also make the off the shelf 'Multi-Vehicle' ATF's.

I implied that no one outside of the OEM's knows what their proprietary ATF is comprised of, because they won't give out the specs. That's not entirely correct. What I should have said is that the Petrochemical companies that make those proprietary ATF's know very well what is in them. But they are also under contract not to divulge that info, or to compete directly with the OEM proprietary ATF they are contracted to make.

Hence the petrochemical companies can 'Recommend' their Mutli-Vehicle ATF for those specific applications, but can't say it's officially 'Approved'.

 

[1engineer]

Yeah, I hear you. I'm also glad I'm no longer in that game.

I do know that I've seen convincing evidence from Engineers and Tribologists, that many of the Multi-Vehicle ATF's they make, are actually superior to those proprietary blends made exclusively for the OEM's.

It's not like Toyota makes their own proprietary ATF. They contract out to a Petrochemical manufacturer, to make it for them.

Those same Engineers that make the proprietary ATF for Toyota, and Hyundai/Kia, also make the off the shelf 'Multi-Vehicle' ATF's.

I implied that no one outside of the OEM's knows what their proprietary ATF is comprised of, because they won't give out the specs. That's not entirely correct. What I should have said is that the Petrochemical companies that make those proprietary ATF's know very well what is in them. But they are also under contract not to divulge that info, or to compete directly with the OEM proprietary ATF they are contracted to make.

Hence the petrochemical companies can 'Recommend' their Mutli-Vehicle ATF for those specific applications, but can't say it's officially 'Approved'.

It's called an "NDA" and I have to sign a bunch of 'em. We all do.

 

[-dustin]

It's called an "NDA" and I have to sign a bunch of 'em. We all do.

can you tell us what an NDA is?

 

[02SE]

It's called an "NDA" and I have to sign a bunch of 'em. We all do.

Yes, I know. I also have to sign an NDA for my current Professional Racing position.

 

[02SE]

can you tell us what an NDA is?

Non Disclosure Agreement.

 

[-dustin]

Non Disclosure Agreement.

i know. it was a joke.
arty: