Bad vibes after lift install - Solved? Solved!

[thezentree]

This came the other day. I'd tell y'all how it affected the vibrations but it turns out the transfer case output flange bolt pattern is 6mm different than the rear axle flange, which was kinda hard to tell upside down in the dark with a standard tape measure.

The good news is that Tom Woods was willing to refund the cost of this shaft as long as I pay to ship it back and is making me a new one. They've been awesome to deal with.

For posterity, the measurements I took (the right ones) are 45-3/8" flange-to-flange at ride height, with the 60x60mm flange at the rear axle and 66x66mm flange at the transfer case, pilot on both ends is 1.812". This is for a 2001 4wd with auto trans, multimode transfer case, and non-elocker axle with 3" lift.

Measure once, cut twice, kids.

 

[thezentree]

Well, after installing the new driveshaft and driving it a couple of days, the vibrations are still there. Maybe not as bad, but definitely still there. This weekend I'm going to swap the tires front to rear and see if it changes the vibrations any.

If it's not wheels and tires, the only other thing I can think it would be is just that the pinion angle isn't close enough to parallel with the driveshaft angle and even with the new driveshaft it's vibrating. If rotating the tires doesn't make any difference, would driving at 65mph for a couple miles in 4wd with no rear driveshaft cause damage?

Anyone have any other ideas?

 

[ladywolf]

This came the other day. I'd tell y'all how it affected the vibrations but it turns out the transfer case output flange bolt pattern is 6mm different than the rear axle flange, which was kinda hard to tell upside down in the dark with a standard tape measure.

The good news is that Tom Woods was willing to refund the cost of this shaft as long as I pay to ship it back and is making me a new one. They've been awesome to deal with.

For posterity, the measurements I took (the right ones) are 45-3/8" flange-to-flange at ride height, with the 60x60mm flange at the rear axle and 66x66mm flange at the transfer case, pilot on both ends is 1.812". This is for a 2001 4wd with auto trans, multimode transfer case, and non-elocker axle with 3" lift.

Measure once, cut twice, kids.

Woody is awesome about his customer service and his drive shafts are top notch! The folks over on the XJ forum swear by him.

 

[thezentree]

Woody is awesome about his customer service and his drive shafts are top notch! The folks over on the XJ forum swear by him.

Yeah they really took care of me and my inability to read a tape measure. I'd absolutely do business with them again.

 

[thezentree]

I realize I've been posting in this thread like crazy, but this is driving me crazy.

This afternoon I measured the angles between the rear axle and the driveshaft and it's about 5° difference. I used an angle finder from work in the parking lot, so I couldn't drop the driveshaft to get a solid measurement from the pinion flange so I used the axle housing itself, but it appears to be perpendicular to the pinion shaft. If anyone knows otherwise, please let me know.
Axle housing (perpendicular to the pinion shaft?) was at 5° from vertical, and driveshaft was at 10° from horizontal.

This seems like it could cause the vibration I'm feeling, right?

 

[thezentree]

Now I think it's in the front end. I put it in AWD and went for a drive and noticed that the vibrations are MUCH worse, they start at about 50mph, and they drop off noticeably when I'm coasting.

I talked to Toytec earlier and they suggested removing the diff drop and seeing if that changes the vibration, which might help isolate a bad CV as opposed to a bad bearing in the diff.

The front driveshaft shouldn't spin much in 2wd, right?

 

[dozerfrelich]

I had a bad vibration like yours caused by my tires being out of balance. When you bring it to a shop see if they will let you watch them balance. Some people don't check the run-off which and throw it off by .25 ounces which made mine shake


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[4LoSoSlo]

I had very similar symptoms after installing my lift. After an alignment, there were no vibrations.

 

[thezentree]

I am at my wit's end with this ****in thing.

New CV axles did not make a difference.

I'm going to have the tires rotated and balanced AGAIN on Monday.

It's been aligned, tires have been road force balanced twice this month, new Tom Woods driveshaft, new CV axles, I've tried driving with and without the wheel spacers.

Any other ideas?

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

I am at my wit's end with this ****in thing.

New CV axles did not make a difference.

I'm going to have the tires rotated and balanced AGAIN on Monday.

It's been aligned, tires have been road force balanced twice this month, new Tom Woods driveshaft, new CV axles, I've tried driving with and without the wheel spacers.

Any other ideas?

Post up your alignment printout. They should have given you one.

 

[thezentree]

Post up your alignment printout. They should have given you one.

This is with SPC UCAs at the "D" setting.

 

[MarkamisPrime]

I didn't read the entire thread but skimmed it.
Your specs look good.
Could use some tweaks but def would not cause vibrations
You already replaced your drive line but I'd try removing the front one and test drive
Also at speed while vibrating throw her in neutral and see if anything changes.
Besides making sure your spacers are torqued it's probably not that
What kind of lug nuts are you running and what wheels ??
And what are you torquing them to?
With that being said. 95% of vibrations come from tires.
I read your getting/have had them road forced
Have they told you of any heavy spots in the tires at all. ?
How are they balancing them dynamic or static ?
Are they using the correct cone or fingers for your wheels to balance?
Does the truck pull any witch way when you let go of the steering wheel and not cause if road crown. ? This can tell you if it's radial or not. Since your specs are ok.
Always put the tire that asks for the most weight on the RR then LR etc.
it definitely takes patience to deal with things like this. Make sure all your lift parts are torqued just to rule that out.
I know it's probably redundant but worth checking.
Especially the SPC UCAs on the ball joint since it's adjustable. And they moved it for your alignment.
Find yourself a shop that will sit there and take the time to try and figure this out with you instead of just another shop that just wants to take your money. Cause like I said it takes patience. Toyotas are special when it comes to balancing and unfortunately not everyone cares or knows this.
Especially if your just going from shop to shop like most people do cause the first shop didn't do it right. Makes them think they did it right and never saw you again. Instead of you going back and raising hell until they get it correct. Let them know they messed up.
I've had customers come to me with problems like this. And I've literally spent 2-3 hours deflating, rotating and rebalancing until it was perfect. Hell it took me 2 hours to get my own just right.
All this is with out a road force machine witch makes things easier cause it will tell you the heavy spots in your wheels and tires.

 

[thezentree]

I didn't read the entire thread but skimmed it.
Your specs look good.
Could use some tweaks but def would not cause vibrations
You already replaced your drive line but I'd try removing the front one and test drive
Also at speed while vibrating throw her in neutral and see if anything changes.
Besides making sure your spacers are torqued it's probably not that
What kind of lug nuts are you running and what wheels ??
And what are you torquing them to?
With that being said. 95% of vibrations come from tires.
I read your getting/have had them road forced
Have they told you of any heavy spots in the tires at all. ?
How are they balancing them dynamic or static ?
Are they using the correct cone or fingers for your wheels to balance?
Does the truck pull any witch way when you let go of the steering wheel and not cause if road crown. ? This can tell you if it's radial or not. Since your specs are ok.
Always put the tire that asks for the most weight on the RR then LR etc.
it definitely takes patience to deal with things like this. Make sure all your lift parts are torqued just to rule that out.
I know it's probably redundant but worth checking.
Especially the SPC UCAs on the ball joint since it's adjustable. And they moved it for your alignment.
Find yourself a shop that will sit there and take the time to try and figure this out with you instead of just another shop that just wants to take your money. Cause like I said it takes patience. Toyotas are special when it comes to balancing and unfortunately not everyone cares or knows this.
Especially if your just going from shop to shop like most people do cause the first shop didn't do it right. Makes them think they did it right and never saw you again. Instead of you going back and raising hell until they get it correct. Let them know they messed up.
I've had customers come to me with problems like this. And I've literally spent 2-3 hours deflating, rotating and rebalancing until it was perfect. Hell it took me 2 hours to get my own just right.
All this is with out a road force machine witch makes things easier cause it will tell you the heavy spots in your wheels and tires.

Thanks for taking the time to type all that out.

The first shop didn't tell me anything about the balancing, but the second shop said they were nearly perfect. No idea if they used the right cones or fingers. Is there a style or part number they need to be using? I am assuming they were dynamically balanced (road force is dynamic, right?) It pulls right slightly but I think that is road crown. I double checked all suspension component torques and the SPC ball joints after the alignment.

It just occurred to me that the best way to describe the vibration would be like driving over a washboard road at speed.

Could this possibly be in the steering rack? I put new ITREs and OTREs on it a few thousand miles ago so I doubt they're to blame, and the steering rack bushing look ok, but they've got 190k miles on them.

 

[MarkamisPrime]

Thanks for taking the time to type all that out.



The first shop didn't tell me anything about the balancing, but the second shop said they were nearly perfect. No idea if they used the right cones or fingers. Is there a style or part number they need to be using? I am assuming they were dynamically balanced (road force is dynamic, right?) It pulls right slightly but I think that is road crown. I double checked all suspension component torques and the SPC ball joints after the alignment.



It just occurred to me that the best way to describe the vibration would be like driving over a washboard road at speed.



Could this possibly be in the steering rack? I put new ITREs and OTREs on it a few thousand miles ago so I doubt they're to blame, and the steering rack bushing look ok, but they've got 190k miles on them.

By dynamic or static I meant do you have on row of weights on the wheels or two ?
One on the inside closest to the spokes and one to the outside edge. Is dynamic
Static is one strip of weight on the outer edge of the wheel.
I should have been more specific before. Sorry.
It could be worth checking your tie rods and bushings. I have seen rack bushings cause this before but they have to be super shot aka damn near falling out. Haha.
I can get you the part number for the Toyota cone Monday morning but the fingers if they have a road force machine they should have them.
And if they do have them they should be using them. Some people just don't bother cause it takes longer to set up than just a standard cone.
If just talk to the service manager or service writers.
Mention these things see if they even know what they are. Ask if you can watch them bring done.
If your standing there maybe they will try a little harder to get it right.
I know here is a couple threads that also complain about the vibration after new wheels and tires
The part numbers could be on there already.?
If it was me I'd go back to where you bought the tires of you can and tell them the problems your having, they might be able to find a tire out of round and swap it out for you.
Tire out of round would feel like your constantly on a wash board road and there is just no way of fixing it besides swapping it out. It's a manufacturing defect so they should have no problems swapping it out for you.
A easy way to spot an out of round tire is to watch the tire as it spins and see if it looks like it's rolling egg shaped (hopping) in one spot. You can do this at home and try to pin point it before you go to the shop.

 

[thezentree]

By dynamic or static I meant do you have on row of weights on the wheels or two ?
One on the inside closest to the spokes and one to the outside edge. Is dynamic
Static is one strip of weight on the outer edge of the wheel.
I should have been more specific before. Sorry.
It could be worth checking your tie rods and bushings. I have seen rack bushings cause this before but they have to be super shot aka damn near falling out. Haha.
I can get you the part number for the Toyota cone Monday morning but the fingers if they have a road force machine they should have them.
And if they do have them they should be using them. Some people just don't bother cause it takes longer to set up than just a standard cone.
If just talk to the service manager or service writers.
Mention these things see if they even know what they are. Ask if you can watch them bring done.
If your standing there maybe they will try a little harder to get it right.
I know here is a couple threads that also complain about the vibration after new wheels and tires
The part numbers could be on there already.?
If it was me I'd go back to where you bought the tires of you can and tell them the problems your having, they might be able to find a tire out of round and swap it out for you.
Tire out of round would feel like your constantly on a wash board road and there is just no way of fixing it besides swapping it out. It's a manufacturing defect so they should have no problems swapping it out for you.
A easy way to spot an out of round tire is to watch the tire as it spins and see if it looks like it's rolling egg shaped (hopping) in one spot. You can do this at home and try to pin point it before you go to the shop.

I just checked, they were dynamically balanced. OTREs and ITREs were replaced in May or June of this year.

Also, I loaded up the back end with 450lbs of sand bags earlier, got the pinion angle to about 3° with the driveshaft, and that didn't change the vibrations so I'm going to rule that out.

Next I will leave it with the tire shop and ask them to really spend time making sure the tires are balanced and not out of round. The weird thing (to me) is that driving in AWD makes the vibration much worse when accelerating. Could vibrations caused by an out of round tire up front be exacerbated by sending power to the front end?

 

[MarkamisPrime]

I just checked, they were dynamically balanced. OTREs and ITREs were replaced in May or June of this year.



Also, I loaded up the back end with 450lbs of sand bags earlier, got the pinion angle to about 3° with the driveshaft, and that didn't change the vibrations so I'm going to rule that out.



Next I will leave it with the tire shop and ask them to really spend time making sure the tires are balanced and not out of round. The weird thing (to me) is that driving in AWD makes the vibration much worse when accelerating. Could vibrations caused by an out of round tire up front be exacerbated by sending power to the front end?

Gets worse in AWD when your front driveline is spinning with a load.
I'd remove it and see if that does anything.
Your safe to drive with out it.
Did you get a diff drop with your lift?

 

[cbr900boy]

I had a very similar experience as yours. I replaced parts left and right with no luck, it wasnt a complete waist because the parts needs replacing anyways. It turned out that the vibration came from the wheels. Now here is the kicker, they were brand new steelies so i didnt suspect them at first. When i went with alumimum wheels, the vibs were 100% gone. Before you start messing with driveline parts I would look into the wheels and tires. Also keep in mind to consider going with the outer lip weights as opposed to just the inner ones because they make a huge difference in balancing. People usually dont put them on for aesthetic reasons. Just a thought. Good luck.

 

[thezentree]

Gets worse in AWD when your front driveline is spinning with a load.
I'd remove it and see if that does anything.
Your safe to drive with out it.
Did you get a diff drop with your lift?

If this next round of tire balancing doesn't help, taking the front driveshaft out is the next step. I don't think that's the culprit though - while I did install a diff drop, I took it out on Friday while I was trying to isolate the cause and there was no change in the vibration.

I will try removing the front DS later this week if having the tires checked doesn't find anything.

 

[thezentree]

I had a very similar experience as yours. I replaced parts left and right with no luck, it wasnt a complete waist because the parts needs replacing anyways. It turned out that the vibration came from the wheels. Now here is the kicker, they were brand new steelies so i didnt suspect them at first. When i went with alumimum wheels, the vibs were 100% gone. Before you start messing with driveline parts I would look into the wheels and tires. Also keep in mind to consider going with the outer lip weights as opposed to just the inner ones because they make a huge difference in balancing. People usually dont put them on for aesthetic reasons. Just a thought. Good luck.

These are the same OEM 5 stars that were on it before, and they are balanced with lip weights on the inside and outside lips. You're not the first to suggest wheels - and I'm not saying it's not possible - but I just can't see how I wouldn't have felt a wheel issue before the lift. I'm to the point though that if I still can't figure it out I'm going to start looking for some factory take-off wheels and tires just to see if that fixes it.

 

[thezentree]

Welp, $600 of driveline parts later, I think it's going to end up being the tires.
:redbrick:

The tire shop rebalanced all four tires (they say shop #2 did a TERRIBLE job of balancing the tires), and found that one tire was 0.029" out of round. They matched it to a low spot in the rim and were able to reduce that runout by a whopping 0.005" to 0.024". They also rotated the tires.

The vibration got noticeably better, but it's still way worse than the cheap (like, $500-for-a-set-of-four cheap) mud tires I had on my old truck so I left it with them to try again.

It seems to me that for spending $1100 on BFG KO2s I should be getting a much better quality tire. Am I out of line for expecting them to replace that tire with the bad runout?