Bilstein 4600, Spring Choices and Lift Help

[IanKenway]

Hi Guys. About a year ago I had some work done by a shop to address the ride quality of my 2000 Limited 4x4. I work in the cycling industry, and the mechanic knew that, so he offered the analogy of Bilstein 4600's making my truck ride like a mountain bike with top-of-the-line Fox Racing Shox suspension. I liked the sound of that!

So...He WAY, WAY, WAY overcharged me, but I didn't know that at the time, and while the 4600's helped stabilize things a bit, and I'm happy I have them, the truck still has an EXTREMELY harsh ride quality (mostly in the back) to the point that it is unsafe. For example, if I am cornering and encounter any sort of significant bump or pothole on the road, the rear end skips out noticeably. Aside from this, there is a disgustingly loud and hard feeling to things when taking on what we'd call in the cycling industry, "square edge bumps"--even just small ones. I know it's not normal, or that I'm not exaggerating, because my buddy has a 4Runner as well, and his rides smoothly. Though I can't copy his build or pick his brain because his has no lift, and he isn't all geeky or handy when it comes to stuff like this.

I've found a great deal of information on here, of which I am very, very grateful--especially because I now see that what I believed to be jobs that were out of my league, from a mechanical standpoint, are not at all as long as I have the right tools and take my time.

From my research on this forum, what I think I am in need of now are new coils or springs (not sure which to call it). It feels as though the old ones (stock, with 208,000 miles on them) are perhaps limiting the capability and performance of the Bilstein 4600's. It sounds like I could just order OEM replacements, but I want to do something better, and I'd like to do it just once, and do it right the first time.

I've seen some posts describing a certain generation Tundra TRD coils, and the fact that they are able to not only provide a lift, but also offer a better ride due to their progressive nature. I absolutely love the idea of this, as I am not going wheeling in any aggressive manner. I'm open to other suggestions, and would like to hear from people who have successfully achieved what I'm after. This is my daily driver, that I load up for camping/surfing/cycling adventures. I would love to be able to do fire road exploring, slow down and crawl up some semi-nasty stuff (without abusing my truck), take it down to Mexico or up to Northern Cali or Oregon (or even up to Canada) and be able to camp and surf and ride like a madman without letting a little rough off-road stop me. I also want to be comfortable while doing it. At this point, if I encounter even a little washboard section up in the Sierras while going over 10mph or so, the ride is so jarring it is embarrassing. And again, the rear end skips around like crazy!!

To get down to business, I really need to know which coils/springs to purchase for the front and rear. I would really like to lift it as much as I can without compromising performance with the 4600's (from what I've read here, it sounds like 2-3" is possible). Since I load bikes on a hitch rack, and lots of gear in the cargo area, I think it would be wise to rake it out about 0.5-1" higher in the rear. So if I could go 2" front, 3" rear, that would be rad!! Or else perhaps 1.5" front, 2.5" rear...Anything along these lines would be sick!!!!

The only other modifications I have made to the otherwise stock 4Runner are Goodyear Duratrac tires, 265/75 R16, and a K&N pop-in filter. In the future I plan to get Weathertech DigitalFit mats all around, some sort of exhaust (and maybe intake as well), a better sound system, darker window tint, maybe a cargo box for the roof for longer trips and mult-use adventures, perhaps the deck-plate or ISR mod I've read about on here, those tinted plastic window and hood guards/covers from Weathertech as well. Just looking to try to make practical changes to the truck that also look/sound good, and improve the overall quality of experience as driver/user.

If you've read this far, thank you so much for doing so. And thank you all so much for this seriously awesome wealth of information--as well as for responding. It is all very appreciated!!!

 

[csp]

If you've read so much about Tundra front coils you should have seen it mentioned several times which springs to use.

You can't use Tundra rear springs because they have leaf springs, not coils in the rear.

 

[Charlene]

If you've read so much about Tundra front coils you should have seen it mentioned several times which springs to use.



You can't use Tundra rear springs because they have leaf springs, not coils in the rear.

Show the poor man some love, he is just asking relevant questions.

 

[IanKenway]

Haha. Yeah, I am totally admitting that I am no expert here. I was really just looking for some help, because I see that all the info is out there, and it's so rad that it is, yet I do not have enough experience to put it all together and confidently order the right stuff the first time on my own. I know tons of you guys will look at my question(s) as silly, but everyone has to start somewhere, right?

As far as my mentioning the TRD Tundra coils all around, that was my attempt at saying that the ride quality described by others who have installed them up front is the idea I had in mind regarding how I'd like my truck to ride and handle. Sounds really nice.

It looks like a lot of people are stoked on the Tundra springs up front, and then some version of the OME springs in the back. If that is the way to go, then I am wondering what sort of lift I should expect if I am using the Bilstein 4600's, and not the 5100's (lots of super solid info on 5100 setup), since I already bought the 4600's a year ago. With Tundra coils up front, what would be a solid match for OME springs in the back, in order not to go too big on the non-adjustable 4600's, and still have it 0.5"-1" higher in the back than in the front for when it's loaded up, etc?

I was hoping maybe someone with actual experience with my particular setup might chime in and point me in the right direction. Once I have that choice nailed down, I'm ready to order some and give the install a go (got some birthday cash!). The ride quality is so terrible in the back right now (better in front, but not awesome), it would be such a good feeling to solve this issue while also making the truck look and perform better, too.

Thanks again for anyone's input. It's very appreciated!

 

[xcmtb83]

I don't think the 4600s are long enough for any lift. The most you could do is probably tall 99 coils. It would give you a minimum of a 1" lift and then you could run Air Lift bags in the rear for extra cargo days.

http://i42.tinypic.com/i76iqq.jpg

 

[Justin727]

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/101758-**rickashays-ome-vs-trd-tundra-lc-review**.html

Hey Ian replied to your PM btw. If you haven't checked out this thread yet do so a lot of helpful info in there.

If I were you I would go with option #2 in that thread

 

[IanKenway]

xcmtb83: Thanks for taking the time to reply. I actually found a post on here where somebody referred to the 4600's as being able to take, "about a 2" lift, max. That's what got me going on this idea of being able to keep the 4600's. If I can find out for certain that they will not accept any sort of lift at all, then I'll just replace the current (stock) springs with some that will get me back to stock height and ride quality (or else stock height and perhaps improved ride quality if possible). There's so much info out there, it's hard to know what to go with. Any help narrowing down what is possible and what is not is a huge help, so thank you very much...

This is where I found the 4600/2" lift conversation:

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...e-2-lift-also-driveshaft-clunking-help-2.html

 

[IanKenway]

Justin727: Thanks for the message and reply. I know this would be a great deal simpler if I had the cash to shell out for the 5100's. They seem to be the way to go for someone in my situation. I wish I'd known when I did the original replacement on my shocks. 5100's in the place of the 4600 would have been golden. I'm still sort of stuck on which way to go as things are. Tons of info out there, although most of the stuff concerns people who are doing things sort of a step up from where I am, with adjustable shocks or those that are intended for a lift. Mine, as far as I can tell, are intended to be higher quality, however stock replacements. I don't want to do something silly and order springs that lift me up to a height that looks cool, only to find out the performance factor has diminished. But if I can achieve even 1"-1.5" up front, and 1.5"-2" in the back, that would already look awesome. I've seen the install now thanks to SpeedysGarage, and understand that, while challenging, it is not the most difficult thing to do mechanically. I'm still just too ignorant regarding all the parts of the puzzle, and which springs to get to be able to get this thing rolling. Again, I really appreciate the help. It's great that you guys are willing to share the knowledge!!!

 

[xcmtb83]

I wasn't aware that people lift with the 4600 shocks. I wonder if they run out of shock travel when one wheel is drooped while off-roading?

I failed to mention that I own two vehicles with the suspensions you are inquiring about. I have the 5100 and Tundra setup on my 1996 Tacoma(1st gen Tacoma, very similar vehicle to 3rd gen 4Runners) and then on my 1996 4Runner I have 4600s. I can say if you are after ride quality keep your 4600 shocks. My 4Runner rides much nicer than my Tacoma. I know this is not a 100% apples to apples comparison but it is really close. Finding someone who owns both of those setups to ask their opinions might take some time.

I re-installed my original 4Runner coils when I replaced my shocks. This was partly because I didn't want to open up another can of worms that comes with lifting a vehicle correctly. I also knew that the rear springs were sagging pretty bad when I threw the bike rack on with the bikes so I opted for the airbags instead of the 906 coils.

In summary it sounds like you want a great ride, nice stance and the option to carry some additional weight from time to time? If this is correct I still suggest the 99 coils with airbags. Your 32" tires would look great with the subtle 99 coil lift.

 

[csp]

I wasn't aware that people lift with the 4600 shocks. I wonder if they run out of shock travel when one wheel is drooped while off-roading?

You just named the reason why lift springs or Tundra springs shouldn't be used on a stock sized 3rd gen shock, regardless of brand. They aren't long enough and run out of down travel. That's why there isn't any info on 4Runner 4600s with lift springs out there on the web.

The Tundras with the TRD package came with 4600s (longer than T4R) that can be used with Tundra springs (duh) and get a couple inches of lift. This was popular amongst Tacoma and T4R owners before it became popularly known that the 5100s allowed you to adjust the bottom perch height. Typically people used the stock Tundra setup with a top hat spacer to get 3+ inches of lift.

 

[IanKenway]

xcmtb83: Thank you for the feedback, again. Along with what csp wrote, I can see that maybe I've been looking at this from the wrong perspective. Rather than wondering how much I can lift it with the stock ride height shocks, requesting those specifics, it would actually be better to just ask: I have new shocks, I think my springs are shot, what are some good options? I see that there is the '99 coil route, and then some who are still going with OME stuff on non-adjustable, stock ride height shocks.

Along with that, part of what I am feeling with regards to ride quality being so bad might not be solved by replacing the coils. I'm not well-versed enough to know for certain--it will definitely improve things as mine have 207,000 miles on them, but it may not seal the deal. So I am also wondering what else one should pay attention to in a case like this. So far, I've understood potential culprits of bad suspension (and handling) performance to be:

-shocks
-coils
-sway bars/torsion bars
-bushings

I've got a new rack n' pinion, and new shocks. This is what lead me next to consider coils, figuring it would either completely solve or else significantly help things, I need them anyway, they're not terribly expensive, overall practical for how I use the truck.

Again, thanks to anyone who has chimed in--it's all a huge help.

 

[csp]

Options:

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/66976-3rd-gen-4runner-lift-information-faqs.html

 

[IanKenway]

Alright, guys. Thank you again to anyone who has lent a hand along the way to this point.

In the end, keeping my Bilstein HD 4600 shocks, I decided to play it safe. The '99 tall coils all around sounded like it would be cool, definitely a huge improvement, and a safe bet.

I did find just a couple people going 881/906 or even 881/890 with stock ride height shocks. But I didn't want to risk negatively affecting the HD's ride quality by overextending them. And, in any case, for this time around I did not want to have to mess with a differential drop, adjustable panhard bar, or brake line lengths. Overall, I needed to fix a problem and also wanted to go for just a touch more than '99 tall coils.

The decision was to go 880/906. I just ordered them from a couple different spots with free shipping on Amazon. It was $332 for all four.

Thanks again to the forum and to those who have helped me directly. I'll be sure to post before and after images for those who are interested. Stoked to give this a go!

 

[SuboptimusPrime]

My sense of things is that there is not a huge difference in height between 99 tall coils (which presumably would be fine with the 4600 shocks since both are "stock" for our generation 4runner) and the 906s. Both are going to give you ~2 inches over your stock 2000 springs which are short.

Just FYI here's a link with good discussion of someone doing 99 tall front/906 rear with 4600 shocks.
2000 Rear Coils and Shock Replacemnet - YotaTech Forums

I'm in the same boat as you but starting from scratch--thinking trd progressive/906 with 5100's for me...

 

[IanKenway]

My sense of things is that there is not a huge difference in height between 99 tall coils (which presumably would be fine with the 4600 shocks since both are "stock" for our generation 4runner) and the 906s. Both are going to give you ~2 inches over your stock 2000 springs which are short.

Just FYI here's a link with good discussion of someone doing 99 tall front/906 rear with 4600 shocks.
2000 Rear Coils and Shock Replacemnet - YotaTech Forums

I'm in the same boat as you but starting from scratch--thinking trd progressive/906 with 5100's for me...

Thanks a bunch for that. It's so cool to have people chime in, here and there, amidst the overabundance of information that is all already out there. Huge help.

I already decided on the 880/906 combo to run with my HD's. I've seen some people say that it is a rough ride, but we'll have to see about that. As many have read (or experienced, likely) it seems that roughness or lack thereof is just as subjective a ride characteristic as anything else out there.

In the end, I am just happy to know that this should be an amazing improvement over my dead stock springs, and that they will provide a very modest lift over stock (perhaps something like the '99 tall coils, but maybe a little more, and with greater weight bearing traits) without needing further mechanical adjustments to the truck (e.g., panhard bar, differential drop, brake hose extension), and without totally overextending the HD's.

Again, I took my 4runner to a recommended shop near me when I was having what I could only vaguely refer to at the time as, "suspension problems," and had a few bushings swapped out, along with the shocks. This was a fix I needed, but it was really only a small portion of the bigger picture, and had I been better educated at the time, I'd have done the shocks and springs and more lift and all the rest.

Thanks again to everyone who has posted or added something here!

 

[IanKenway]

My sense of things is that there is not a huge difference in height between 99 tall coils (which presumably would be fine with the 4600 shocks since both are "stock" for our generation 4runner) and the 906s. Both are going to give you ~2 inches over your stock 2000 springs which are short.

Just FYI here's a link with good discussion of someone doing 99 tall front/906 rear with 4600 shocks.
2000 Rear Coils and Shock Replacemnet - YotaTech Forums

I'm in the same boat as you but starting from scratch--thinking trd progressive/906 with 5100's for me...

I think if I were to do it from scratch, it'd be:

-Tundra TRD coils w/ adjustable 5100 billies up front
-Land Cruiser or comparable OME coils w/ 5100 billes in the back

I'd be going for a rake of 0.5-1", and the ability to load things up a bit for adventures. Also not interested in airbags or any auxiliary mechanical components used for ride height adjustment or leveling. Whenever possible, I am happy to spend a little more for, "set it and forget it," parts.

The TRD Tundra coils sound like they're bad and tough enough (obviously, since they're off a significantly larger truck) for some good off-road use, while still maintaining a comfortable ride thanks to their progressiveness. And then the LC coils or comparable OME coils, chosen for their load capacity, would set things up in the back correctly, according to intended use and desired aesthetic.

For the meanwhile, I'll be focusing on my humble 4600/OME set up. I'm still stoked that I'm going to make my foray into truck modifications/lifts--even if only from a very basic standpoint, and I've learned a lot on here thanks to everyone's help!

 

[SuboptimusPrime]

Glad you're excited about the new springs--for me half the fun of upgrades is the research. Please post back with your impressions--I'm definitely interested (as, I expect, are others)

Your MTB analogies make a lot of sense since I ride too, sadly not in the business myself--I feel like I have a pretty good sense of suspension tuning for bikes but I confess trucks are way harder. Speaking of which, who in the bike industry are you working for?

Happy trails.

 

[IanKenway]

Glad you're excited about the new springs--for me half the fun of upgrades is the research. Please post back with your impressions--I'm definitely interested (as, I expect, are others)

Your MTB analogies make a lot of sense since I ride too, sadly not in the business myself--I feel like I have a pretty good sense of suspension tuning for bikes but I confess trucks are way harder. Speaking of which, who in the bike industry are you working for?

Happy trails.

Hey SuboptimusPrime: Sorry for the delay. I got pretty sick for a couple weeks there! To be honest, it felt a little wrong to start throwing out mtb analogies, as I know most of the guys on here are gearheads on the vehicular side of things, and it's sort of apples and oranges. At that time, however, it was the best comparison I could make.

So I received the front springs (OME 880) and I'm eagerly awaiting the back ones (OME 906). Unfortunately, I do not own vehicle grade tools and the like, so I am poking around trying to figure out if there is a buddy or otherwise stranger I might meet via this site who will take pity on me and allow me to make use of their garage for a day or something.

Since I know bicycles very well, and have wrenched on them for about the past 10 years now, I figured maybe there'd be someone on this forum who is in the SF/Bay Area who knows cars, but needs a hand with a solid bike tune-up, parts, etc. I'd be stoked to make a trade, as I've got stockpiles of spare bits and pieces, and nearly a full set of shop tools in my home collection. Worth a try, right? And to answer your question, I worked for a couple of manufacturers in Santa Cruz in the past, as well as shops and active travel companies both internationally and in CA, but now I'm posted up at American Cyclery in SF. It's a great shop to be a part of, even though I never thought I'd step foot into a retail environment again!!!

Anyway, I will follow up with photos and impressions once the work is done. I've got a feeling that the springs are going to improve things dramatically, but there might be more to the "suspension" scenario than meets the eye for a newbie like myself, and it may only be a part of the puzzle at this point--though I know it's gonna look badass!!!! Fingers crossed...

 

[IanKenway]

Options:

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/66976-3rd-gen-4runner-lift-information-faqs.html

Thanks, CSP! I had actually already stumbled upon that particular thread. Though when I did, I couldn't make any sense of it! Haha. This guide has been so useful, and helped me to decide on the somewhat simple/basic 880/906 combo.

I'm now super tempted to do a small body lift at the same time! Not sure I will, as I'm thinking I'll make modifications one thing at a time. It's always a good way to learn on the bike, to be sure you know what you're feeling when something's been changed...Anyway, super stoked. Just looking for a friend with some tools and a garage

 

[IanKenway]

In summary it sounds like you want a great ride, nice stance and the option to carry some additional weight from time to time? If this is correct I still suggest the 99 coils with airbags. Your 32" tires would look great with the subtle 99 coil lift.

Yep. In the end, when I look back at the long, rambling, LONG paragraph I wrote to start this thread, your words above pretty well sum up what I was looking for, ultimately.

I haven't had time to take quality pics since installation, but I've got the new springs on. So far I am stoked. I did the rear first, and they were EASY!!! Though I promise I will post pics once it's clean so people can see the before and after. Even this modest lift makes my 265/75 16 Duratracs look small.

The front took me longer, and I did them a week later. I have to say that the 880's feel stiffer than the 906's. Perhaps this is a published fact, as I recall seeing the spring rates on a post in here at some point. Though still, I can say that the 906's feel a little better than the 880's. Presumably this is due to their having been designed to take an aftermarket bumber/winch, or something along those lines(?). I say this only because I got to feel it with the stock front springs and 906 rear before doing the whole job.

Still, I am super stoked with the result. It was my first time doing any serious work/heavy lifting like this on a vehicle. Since the spring install, I've replaced the fuel filter, PCV valve and grommet, spark plugs, cleaned the MAF sensor, got it aligned after doing the front springs, and reset the EFI relay. It's running the best it has since I purchased it 50,000 miles ago!

I also am going to replace wires, as mine are stock and therefore 15 years/210,000 miles old. And I plan to do the Tundra brake upgrade since mine suck. I figure the TB cleaning should be done. But, as reported on here in other posts, I also had the bad surprise of oil on the threads of the plugs when I replaced them--so I know I have to locate the replacement part for that, and assume it's advisable to do so before changing out the plug wires. Seems like a good idea to solve that first and foremost.

Thanks so much to everyone for all their help and input!