Black798's 98 limited build thread

[Unner]

I'm running 650 Kings and I'm happy with it. From what I saw on other's people's rigs was that with 600's they had to add a decent amount of preload to the springs, but with the 650's I don't have nearly as much. Our trucks probably weigh about the same on the front. I can't remember if you have full belly skids or just engine/transmission, but we've both got sliders, bumper, and a winch w/synthetic line. The only other difference would be my roof rack, but most of that is over the rear axle.

 

[TCMach]

Thanks for the input on the coilovers Brian. I currently have 620lb coils on my Bilstein 5100s and they ride pretty well on the road. The main issues I have is that they seem to have settled close to an inch over the last 10 thousand miles and with the weight of the skids, bumper, and winch so I have quite a bit of pre load on them to get 2 inches of lift. The bumper and winch alone is around 140lbs and then another 70 for the skids. And they also seem either way undervalved in the shocks or something when Im running across stuff at speed because they will basically just bounce from full compression to full droop whenever I roll over something bigger than id say 6 inches.

I know [MENTION=44220]BigFishAllDay[/MENTION] and [MENTION=82211]TCMach[/MENTION] are running 700lb coils on their trucks and are happy with them but they do seem to limit articulation a bit.

I do still need to call king directly through and get their opinion because I know the kings are a whole different animal than the Bilsteins. I just want something in the front that can keep up with the rear because right now the front rides like shit and is all over the place while the rear is just super controlled and consistent. 650lb coils may end up being the happy spot for what I need

I'm going to be swapping back to my 650s here soon. I honestly have no problem with my 700s. Nice on the road, nice offroad, i can still hit full compression on the front end (not as easily but its there). My biggest issue is I want it to be a little softer on the entry/exit roads. Washboards and all that stuff is a little more bone shaking than I want at slow speeds. I may play with the valving while I have it all apart as well.

 

[Black798]

I'm running 650 Kings and I'm happy with it. From what I saw on other's people's rigs was that with 600's they had to add a decent amount of preload to the springs, but with the 650's I don't have nearly as much. Our trucks probably weigh about the same on the front. I can't remember if you have full belly skids or just engine/transmission, but we've both got sliders, bumper, and a winch w/synthetic line. The only other difference would be my roof rack, but most of that is over the rear axle.

I dont have the "full" belly skid sense mone only go from the transmission forward, I didn't really see a reason to cover the transfer case and still don't for my use. I do like the idea of having less pre load and that's one of the reasons I'm still entertaining the 650s.

I'm going to be swapping back to my 650s here soon. I honestly have no problem with my 700s. Nice on the road, nice offroad, i can still hit full compression on the front end (not as easily but its there). My biggest issue is I want it to be a little softer on the entry/exit roads. Washboards and all that stuff is a little more bone shaking than I want at slow speeds. I may play with the valving while I have it all apart as well.

Valid reasoning. I do like having a softer ride over washboard since Im usually too lazy to air down when Im just running on rougher roads for extended periods.

That's also probably my biggest complaint with my current coilovers is that they're pretty jarring on rough roads at speeds below about 25 but if I go 25 where they soak up the washboard really well they'll bottom out really easily on any bigger whoops that show up. I think this is probably due to the valving more than the springs though.

Just for example the faster portion of tie rod flats on poison spider, they were running across the smaller things pretty nice but as soon as I hit something over I'd say 4 inches they would just bottom out which was really annoying. It was further compounded by the rear shocks being valved more for higher speeds so they were also fighting the front a bit, I probably should have turned the compression knobs down a bit.

 

[AssBurns]

Actual preload is a good thing in moderation. I’d probably start with 600lb springs and see how it feels and sits with about an inch of actual preload. If your ride height is way too low, then consider a higher spring rate. You shouldn’t really rely on your springs to prevent bottoming out. Your valving should take care of that. In my opinion it is better to start by being under sprung and over valved than the other way around.

Also consider some wheelers bump stops up front. That way you can keep a lighter spring rate then have a nice plush bump stop to slow down the bottoming out. I have them and absolutely love them. I can bomb through some pretty rough stuff without bottoming out hard.

 

[Black798]

Wheelers bump stops are on the list of things I'll be adding when I have the front end blown apart to overhaul it. I considered a set of king hydros since it would be pretty easy to set up, but at 500 for a set, they are bit expensive and probably overkill for my needs.

 

[AssBurns]

How would you set up hydros? There isn’t much room for packaging unless you cut out the bulkhead and mount the hydros there. The problem with that is the motion ratio would be crappy. You could modify the LCA but then you have to worry about strength of the LCA and strike pad. I’ve thought about it but it sounds like more work than it’s worth due to packaging constraints.

 

[Black798]

I was thinking there may be just enough room to fit them right in front of the coilovers. There's less stuff to work around there but I agree it wouldn't be ideal with the motion ratios and all. I have done hardly any measurements to see if it would work and most likely won't look into it much more. For this truck it's more work than it is worth IMO. Id sooner get secondary shocks

 

[Fishwerks]

It was great getting to wheel with you guys, hope to do it again soon! Already starting to think about my next run to Moab. Do you think you're heading to Jambo this year? Ive been tossing around the idea of heading down to Colorado a couple weeks before that and staying down there through it.

I'm not sure on the Jambo, we may go or there's a chance we plan something separate around that time of year. I'll let you know, we haven't started talking about anything yet. If you do plan to head to CO let me know.

The 285s look good by the way. I'm surprised at how much trimming you had to do with stock UCAs.

 

[Black798]

[MENTION=78892]Fishwerks[/MENTION] I was surprised with the amount of trimming as well. Hopefully, I don't have to do more when I install the SPC upper control arms this fall. Im not entirely sure about the Jambo yet, it will depend on how my class schedule works out in the fall. Im hoping to make it down to CO at least once in June or July though

 

[Black798]

I took the truck out for the first trip with the new tires and they worked great. They ride over things so much smoother and are like tracks in the snow. I wasn't able to get as far as I would have liked to and several of the trails are still closed for snowmobile use so Il be back again soon.

Kid mountain poking out through the clouds on my way out
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I didnt take many pictures on the way up the trail since I was solo and things were going really smooth. I aired down to 10psi and the tires were keeping me on top of the snow great and with the rear diff locked I was able to just keep chugging away up this hill. I ended up turning around about 1/4 mile short of where I wanted to because I just wasn't able to make much forward progress once I was in the trees. The snow was just too soft, Id spend 4 minutes backing up and resetting to get 4 inches of forward progress.

Coming up through the trees...
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Turn around point...
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I turned around and headed back down to check out some other side trails. The next on i went up had a fun little rock climb and then it headed out across a big wide open field. It quickly started climbing though and at the first switchback, I had to turn around again. I tried getting inside the drift and riding up the wall but the ground was really loose and muddy and 20 feet further the drift took up the whole trail and it was just too steep.

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/147275993@N05/39339051240/in/album-72157693338171131/" title="IMG_7886"><img src="https://farm1.staticflickr.com/819/39339051240_4f98e726b0_b.jpg" width="1024" height="683" alt="IMG_7886"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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I headed back out across the flat section and it was clear the mountain wasn't quite done with me. There was a spot I had broke through on the way in that 'i was trying to avoid since I thought I would sink further in and there werent really any winch points. I took a line more to the left and the front broke through again. I backed up, locked the rear diff, and gave it another shot and the rear sank up to the axle in sugary snow and that was the end of me moving under my own power.

I thought about digging but figured I'd end up moving 3 feet before the same thing happened again. I needed a way to get back on top of the harder snow. I looked around seeing if there was anything I could use for a winch anchor and thankfully there was a big rock poking through the snow not too far away. I dug it out, wrapped a strap around it and with a 3 second pull on the winch I was back on the hard stuff.

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/147275993@N05/40253194955/in/album-72157693338171131/" title="IMG_7901"><img src="https://farm1.staticflickr.com/815/40253194955_91547840cb_b.jpg" width="1024" height="732" alt="IMG_7901"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Everything after this was smooth sailing. I was really impressed with how the truck handled but my front end sounds like a complete box of rocks. I think this is a combination of the worn out rack and lower control arm bushings so hopefully, I can get those replaced soon.

 

[jmferg]

I took the truck out for the first trip with the new tires and they worked great. They ride over things so much smoother and are like tracks in the snow. I wasn't able to get as far as I would have liked to and several of the trails are still closed for snowmobile use so Il be back again soon.

Kid mountain poking out through the clouds on my way out
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/147275993@N05/41105004432/in/album-72157693338171131/" title="IMG_7875"><img src="https://farm1.staticflickr.com/888/41105004432_be8e01f6bf_b.jpg" width="1024" height="683" alt="IMG_7875"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I didnt take many pictures on the way up the trail since I was solo and things were going really smooth. I aired down to 10psi and the tires were keeping me on top of the snow great and with the rear diff locked I was able to just keep chugging away up this hill. I ended up turning around about 1/4 mile short of where I wanted to because I just wasn't able to make much forward progress once I was in the trees. The snow was just too soft, Id spend 4 minutes backing up and resetting to get 4 inches of forward progress.

Coming up through the trees...
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/147275993@N05/41105004732/in/album-72157693338171131/" title="IMG_7877"><img src="https://farm1.staticflickr.com/877/41105004732_3962bf4c17_b.jpg" width="1024" height="683" alt="IMG_7877"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Turn around point...
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/147275993@N05/41105005292/in/album-72157693338171131/" title="IMG_7881"><img src="https://farm1.staticflickr.com/868/41105005292_94fa81d726_b.jpg" width="1024" height="683" alt="IMG_7881"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/147275993@N05/27274831598/in/album-72157693338171131/" title="IMG_7882"><img src="https://farm1.staticflickr.com/872/27274831598_36c350e5c0_b.jpg" width="1024" height="683" alt="IMG_7882"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I turned around and headed back down to check out some other side trails. The next on i went up had a fun little rock climb and then it headed out across a big wide open field. It quickly started climbing though and at the first switchback, I had to turn around again. I tried getting inside the drift and riding up the wall but the ground was really loose and muddy and 20 feet further the drift took up the whole trail and it was just too steep.

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/147275993@N05/39339051240/in/album-72157693338171131/" title="IMG_7886"><img src="https://farm1.staticflickr.com/819/39339051240_4f98e726b0_b.jpg" width="1024" height="683" alt="IMG_7886"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/147275993@N05/40253192595/in/album-72157693338171131/" title="IMG_7894"><img src="https://farm1.staticflickr.com/818/40253192595_8035fb13e5_b.jpg" width="1024" height="683" alt="IMG_7894"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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I headed back out across the flat section and it was clear the mountain wasn't quite done with me. There was a spot I had broke through on the way in that 'i was trying to avoid since I thought I would sink further in and there werent really any winch points. I took a line more to the left and the front broke through again. I backed up, locked the rear diff, and gave it another shot and the rear sank up to the axle in sugary snow and that was the end of me moving under my own power.

I thought about digging but figured I'd end up moving 3 feet before the same thing happened again. I needed a way to get back on top of the harder snow. I looked around seeing if there was anything I could use for a winch anchor and thankfully there was a big rock poking through the snow not too far away. I dug it out, wrapped a strap around it and with a 3 second pull on the winch I was back on the hard stuff.

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/147275993@N05/40253194955/in/album-72157693338171131/" title="IMG_7901"><img src="https://farm1.staticflickr.com/815/40253194955_91547840cb_b.jpg" width="1024" height="732" alt="IMG_7901"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Everything after this was smooth sailing. I was really impressed with how the truck handled but my front end sounds like a complete box of rocks. I think this is a combination of the worn out rack and lower control arm bushings so hopefully, I can get those replaced soon.

Great pics and the snow wheeling looks fun. Lots of challenges but less breakage.

What symptoms were you getting on the trail from the front end?


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[Black798]

Snow wheeling definitely has it's challenges. The snow can be so unpredictable but it is a ton of fun. It's a really cool feeling when your driving on top of the surface and know there's another 5 plus feet of snow below you. So far I've had less breakage doing it versus rock crawling but I'm sure I'll break things eventually.

The front end honestly just sounds and feels like it's falling apart. Everything is tight as far as bolts and such but going over washboard and pot holes there's just a ton of clunks and bangs that shouldn't be there. The wierd thing is when I'm on the highway it tracks super straight and is really solid.

I know the rack is leaking on the driver side, there's a ton of slop even with the updated guide, and I was told by the last shop that did the alignment that my ITREs are shot so I'm sure that's contributing a lot to all of the noises.

 

[BrianSD_42]

The snow wheeling looks great. I've replaced my steering rack twice now, so the truck is on it's third. If I were to do it again I would probably spend the cash and buy a new OEM one from Camelback Toyota (online parts) or similar. It is a bit more cash but the satisfaction of not having to do it again a few years later is quite nice. I also replaced my inner and outer TREs with OEM about a year after the last re-manufactured steering rack purchase.

 

[Black798]

Im planning on going with an OEM rack and tierods. I originally was going to get a Cardone remanufactured one but the price difference ended up only being 200 dollars so I figure since my original has lasted 180 thousand miles its worth it. I also read a lot of reviews and it seemed all the rebuilt units were pretty hit or miss whether they worked well or not.

Im just trying to nurse this one along until I have the time and money to replace everything at once. So most likely sometime in august.

 

[colovolvo]

Where did you go play in the snow at? I’m in the Bozeman area and looking for somewhere to have some fun


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[Black798]

Most recently, at my "secret" spot down in the tobacoo roots. I say "secret" because not many people make the trip out there other than snowmobilers so there is less traffic and its one of the few places that doesn't have many seasonal gates.

Flathead pass and the Little Bear complex are about 45 minutes from Bozeman and are a good place for just screwing around. There's usually a decent amount of traffic up in Little Bear on the weekend because of all the people that go up there for "mudding" but it just opened up last week and there is still a fair amount of snow

I wouldn't recommend the tobacco roots unless you have either another vehicle or a winch. There isn't any cell service for quite awhile before the trailhead so if things go south you're pretty much on your own

 

[colovolvo]

I’ve done a little bit of exploring around little bear and didn’t like all the bro trucks so I didn’t spend much time there. Also part of the reason I’m looking for somewhere else to go haha

I’ll have to check out flathead pass though. Is it as busy as little bear?

One of the reasons I like Montana so much is being able to get out of range of cell service pretty easily. You have a winch and another vehicle right? Wanna show me around a bit? Haha


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[Black798]

The bro trucks are the main reason I pretty much only go to little bear as a last resort. They always seem to show up at the worst times and are generally pretty inconsiderate.

Flathead pass has very little traffic on it but is basically a single lane road which makes the two-way traffic a little sketchy on the off chance you run across someone going the other way. There's usually a lot of snow up top and its pretty steep as well which makes getting up there before mid-May pretty tough. I've never tried coming from the east side though which is a lot more mellow.

Im always up for getting out and running some trails so just let me know. Im probably going back out to the tobacco roots in a few weeks to get an idea of how things are thawing out. Early May, basically as soon as it opens to wheeled vehicles, I have a group that is going to try and make it up to twin lakes

 

[colovolvo]

Sent you a PM


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[Black798]

Well I had to go back and do some more trimming for the new tires. When I originally tubbed it there was still some very minor rubbing but for some reason once the truck was back together and fully flexed I was still rubbing the piss out of the cab corner and firewall. I think part of this may have been that I recently removed my front swaybar, my lower control arm bushing need to be replaced... bad, and also just from the real life weight of the truck compressing things.

I also found that the tire was rubbing the top of the fender flare which I was really hoping it wouldn't, part of the reason I choose my current rims was so the tires wouldnt rub there but they do. So I said screw it, if I have to do this again I'm just going to clearance for 35s in case I ever go that route.

First up was to address the rubbing on the fender. I started out by pulling off the flares and trim the fenders up about 2 inches. You can see how much room there is under the flares...
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So I tapped off the paint to keep it from chipping, used at squared to draw my cut line, and a cheap harbor freight body saw to make the cut. This thing was totally worth the 20 dollars I spent on it and sure beats using a grinder.

After the cut...
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I then clear coated the exposed edge and also covered it in edge trim to prevent myself from getting cut on the fender. This stuff has a butyl glue in it that fully seals the edge when installing properly so it won't cause rust.
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Next I cut the inside lip of the fender flare out so it was essentially hollow and would allow the tire to travel up inside of it. Sense I could now acess the inside of the fender easily I replaced the plastic clips with 1/4 inch bolts so my flares wouldnt blow off on the highway like [MENTION=129084]Flemster[/MENTION]s. After I had those two things done I pulled the fenders off to make my life easier for the cutting.

I then cut the cab corner back to the fender mounting bolt and pushed the lower corner of the fire wall back about an inch and a half.

Before profile...
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After a lot of cutting...
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On the passenger side I was able to reference my cut from the driver side and cut it all out at once.
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Thats a big hole...
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The passenger side required a little more attention because of the air intake and the power antenna.

I rarely use my FM radio so I decided to just remove the motor entirely. To plug the hole in the fender I cut the top portion off the antenna and motor housing to reinstall into the fender. This way it looks completely factory but eliminates the stupid motor. I have a fitting coming so that I can plug the antenna wire from the rear glass into the radio so I at least have a radio if I needed it for some reason.

For the air intake, I removed the snorkel tube and made a mud guard of sorts around the intake elbow...
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Im still not entirely sold on this idea because it could still potentially let debris into the engine bay so I may end up just plugging the hole in the airbox and doing the deckplate mod. Id like to just get an AFE intake but for 350 dollars I think I will pass on it.

Final profile of the firewall...
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Stuffage...
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I am confident now that I could fit 35s if I wanted to, especially after I get the SPC upper arms and push the tire further forward. Right now there is about 2 inches of clearance all the way around the tire regardless of where I turn when its stuffed. The only thing left to do now is deal with the windshield washer reservoir.