Brake Downgrade?

[SS_Syndicate]

Hello all,

I did try to search for this prior to posting but didn't find this information. Lots of complaints, but not much done about it. It's possible I missed it as there are a lot of threads here and I'm too new to know the history. Apologies if this exists somewhere.

Anyway, I'll get on with it.

Has anyone experimented with aftermarket pads and/or materials to take some of the braking power away from there 5th gen?

We have several rigs that we swap around in. The 4-Runner has ridiculously touchy brakes. While I agree that I would get used to them, and that it's actually a good thing. We are never in the 4-runner long enough to really get used to it. Even when we get "better" we go on a trip in another vehicle and have to start over. We have had a few lock-ups from them being so touchy as compared to our other vehicles. I've owned lots of other vehicles (brands and types) and Toyota seems to have the touchiest brakes.

It's to the point I'm looking for a lower friction pad than what comes from the factory.

Thoughts?

 

[derryck]

Sounds like brake pads might not solve your issue if you're locking up ABS. How many miles, are they worn in yet?

 

[SS_Syndicate]

Sounds like brake pads might not solve your issue if you're locking up ABS. How many miles, are they worn in yet?

It's not an ABS stop... I get let up before that...

Example: On the highway and something happens that needs a brisk but not crazy slow-down. I transition from throttle to brake and put WAY too much pressure on the pedal for what is needed (not much is needed for a lot of stopping). The result is a quick tire chirp until I soften, often over shooting again as I let off. It makes these brisk stops head jerkers.... and I feel kinda sorry for the people trying to follow me.

Both the wife and I also typically drag a tire on the gravel out at the end of our driveway (kinda long). when we slow to check for traffic.

I am coming up on 5k miles. I'm almost certain it's not an issue with the runner though. One thing my searching revealed was many have this. Also, I had a few rentals for body work early on (the dealer damaged it taking it off the truck) and the Camry, Carolla, and the other 4-Runner were all this way. The Runners did seem to be a bit worse though.

I know it sounds like I can't drive LOL, I honestly think this is something we may (in time) get used to... but with us swapping vehicles all the time this will not happen.

 

[mmike87]

I found the brakes on my 2016 very touchy when I bought it new in December. At 10k miles now, and the brakes no longer feel this way ... either they "broke in" or I just got used to it.

 

[SS_Syndicate]

I found the brakes on my 2016 very touchy when I bought it new in December. At 10k miles now, and the brakes no longer feel this way ... either they "broke in" or I just got used to it.

Hmmm. Perhaps I just need to wait a bit longer.

I would also think that some slightly larger tires may actually help this as the rolling inertia may take some of the harshness out, but the first life of this rig is my daily company car so I don't plan to swap rubber for a year or so.

 

[Toffees]

Hmmm. Perhaps I just need to wait a bit longer.

I would also think that some slightly larger tires may actually help this as the rolling inertia may take some of the harshness out, but the first life of this rig is my daily company car so I don't plan to swap rubber for a year or so.

What are your other rigs/drivers? Is this your only Toyota? I'd guess this is more you "breaking in" to driving a toyota than your pads breaking in. Also, it's the brake pedal that's touchy, not the pads.

Give it another 5k, or put yourself in it 5 days in a row, and see how you adjust.

 

[SS_Syndicate]

What are your other rigs/drivers? Is this your only Toyota? I'd guess this is more you "breaking in" to driving a toyota than your pads breaking in. Also, it's the brake pedal that's touchy, not the pads.

Give it another 5k, or put yourself in it 5 days in a row, and see how you adjust.

This our only (and first) Toyota. I totally agree with it being more of an issue with us. My seek for a lower friction bad is a vehicle tweak to our problem.

My last company cars have been Fords. All our personal vehicles are Jeeps. I've had 5 days in a row in the Toyota (every week). Then, a weekend in one of our Jeeps and Monday I have the same issue. Even in semi-emergency moments mid-week, I am over doing the brake. My concern is with winter and poor weather coming this will be a far worse mistake to make.

Currently, we have a KL Cherokee for light overlanding and weekend exploring trips. We have a very well build JKU for hard wheeling/overlanding. The reason I got the 4-Runner for a company car was to fill a gap in the middle of those two. I think it will be amazing for this, but the drivability leaves something to be desired IMO. Oh, I am also building a crawler TBD mid '18.

We (wife and I) drive and travel a bunch. We've never needed more than an hour or so to adapt to a vehicle, but the Runner gives both of us fits. I know what I seek isn't an ideal "fix". But for anyone swapping vehicles a bunch the pedal feel in Toyotas seems to be WAY touchier than other makes.

 

[Toffees]

This our only (and first) Toyota. I totally agree with it being more of an issue with us. My seek for a lower friction bad is a vehicle tweak to our problem.

My last company cars have been Fords. All our personal vehicles are Jeeps. I've had 5 days in a row in the Toyota (every week). Then, a weekend in one of our Jeeps and Monday I have the same issue. Even in semi-emergency moments mid-week, I am over doing the brake. My concern is with winter and poor weather coming this will be a far worse mistake to make.

Currently, we have a KL Cherokee for light overlanding and weekend exploring trips. We have a very well build JKU for hard wheeling/overlanding. The reason I got the 4-Runner for a company car was to fill a gap in the middle of those two. I think it will be amazing for this, but the drivability leaves something to be desired IMO. Oh, I am also building a crawler TBD mid '18.

We (wife and I) drive and travel a bunch. We've never needed more than an hour or so to adapt to a vehicle, but the Runner gives both of us fits. I know what I seek isn't an ideal "fix". But for anyone swapping vehicles a bunch the pedal feel in Toyotas seems to be WAY touchier than other makes.

I've never driven a Jeep (except maybe half a day), but on the Fords I've driven, the first 1/2 of the brake depression is dead space. Not so much on your 4R. I think you'll adapt, just realize it's very sensitive/responsive to your input.

 

[Grug556]

You tip in speed with your foot on the brake pedal is to fast. Its not a sports car, have your foot complete the action with less speed and you wont get the dreaded all stop panic breaking to come on. Slow off of gas to slow onto brake. If transition is to fast... youll get the crunch

 

[1engineer]

It's not an ABS stop... I get let up before that...

Example: On the highway and something happens that needs a brisk but not crazy slow-down. I transition from throttle to brake and put WAY too much pressure on the pedal for what is needed (not much is needed for a lot of stopping). The result is a quick tire chirp until I soften, often over shooting again as I let off. It makes these brisk stops head jerkers.... and I feel kinda sorry for the people trying to follow me.

Both the wife and I also typically drag a tire on the gravel out at the end of our driveway (kinda long). when we slow to check for traffic.

I am coming up on 5k miles. I'm almost certain it's not an issue with the runner though. One thing my searching revealed was many have this. Also, I had a few rentals for body work early on (the dealer damaged it taking it off the truck) and the Camry, Carolla, and the other 4-Runner were all this way. The Runners did seem to be a bit worse though.

I know it sounds like I can't drive LOL, I honestly think this is something we may (in time) get used to... but with us swapping vehicles all the time this will not happen.

It's not the pressure, it's the speed of actuation. You can press on them as hard as you want if you do it in a reasonable amount of time. when you press fast is when you have your issues.

 

[SS_Syndicate]

I'm certainly not trying to be a smart-ass here, but I'm not asking how to drive... I know what it causing it and that it's really our fault. [MENTION=144062]Toffees[/MENTION] nailed it, Fords, GMs, and Jeeps all seem to have less brake (and throttle) reaction in the first 10-20% of pedal movement. Since we often drive all of these randomly there isn't a driver habit fix... If I learn to slow my pedal transfer reaction in the 4-runner I am too slow in the other vehicles. My mission was to see if anyone had tweaked their braking to make it less responsive in the first 10% of pedal movement (i.e. make it drive like other cars, or at least the ones we are used to).

I'm not looking to reduce braking altogether, but rather de-tune the initial responsiveness.

FWIW, My company has 14 new (2017) 4Runners in the fleet. Everyone that has one hates the braking. Two of them moved from 2014 4Runners and they said they didn't like them, but it's far worse in their new ones. More than a 5k mile break-in seems excessive, but I'm new to Toyota so I'll hold off and see if another 5 changes things.

 

[SS_Syndicate]

It's not the pressure, it's the speed of actuation. You can press on them as hard as you want if you do it in a reasonable amount of time. when you press fast is when you have your issues.

I'm pickin up what you're putting down... but no... Our 4Runner is near digital on the brakes. It is literally impossible to creep along. You are either stopped or going darn near full idle speed.

It does brake harder with more pedal, but it takes next to no movement at all to brake VERY hard.

 

[MossJenks]

Open up the bleed valve on each caliper, pump a small quantity of fluid out and let it suck air back in. That will make the brakes considerably spongier.

 

[SS_Syndicate]

Open up the bleed valve on each caliper, pump a small quantity of fluid out and let it suck air back in. That will make the brakes considerably spongier.

Hahaha! This it would!:eyebrows:

 

[Saker]

If you feel you are applying the brakes properly, without sufficient pedal actuation to throw the system into "panic" braking, then I suggest bringing it into the dealership...maybe there is an actual issue with your T4R.

I would never suggest trying to downgrade to a lesser brake pad.

2 things one should never downgrade IMHO, brakes and tires.
YMMV

 

[Grug556]

I'm pickin up what you're putting down... but no... Our 4Runner is near digital on the brakes. It is literally impossible to creep along. You are either stopped or going darn near full idle speed.

It does brake harder with more pedal, but it takes next to no movement at all to brake VERY hard.

Wearing light shoes? Use to a standard car. I would still say its the tip speed of your foot transitioning from one pedal to the next. The runner likes slow deliberate movements. If its crunching your going to fast. Try to simulate it in a parking lot. Wear snow boots. Brake on pedal very slowly. Lift foot slowly off gas...does it still do it?

I bet not.

The pedal is a pig for those who are asleep at the wheel. Coming from a tuned sports car, its a sharp learning curve to get use to its modulation of pedal depression speed vs force used to apply to pedal. I think your confusing the two parameters.

 

[SS_Syndicate]

[MENTION=103267]Saker[/MENTION]

I agree mostly agree with you, but there are times were harsh braking is just as dangerous as poor braking.

There is ALWAYS room for driver skill improvement. This said, I do feel like our 4Runner brakes too hard with very little pedal input. The problem is, I've been in others that are this way as well... so it's not really something "wrong".

I feel a trip to a dealer is just a waist of my and their time. "Yes, my 4Runner brakes too well." Even I admit this sounds ridiculous, but the issue is real... at least to us.

 

[Grug556]

[MENTION=103267]Saker[/MENTION]

I agree mostly agree with you, but there are times were harsh braking is just as dangerous as poor braking.

There is ALWAYS room for driver skill improvement. This said, I do feel like our 4Runner brakes too hard with very little pedal input. The problem is, I've been in others that are this way as well... so it's not really something "wrong".

I feel a trip to a dealer is just a waist of my and their time. "Yes, my 4Runner brakes too well." Even I admit this sounds ridiculous, but the issue is real... at least to us.

Operator error. Retry and rethink foot speed. Problem will be fixed asap that way.

 

[SS_Syndicate]

Brake on pedal very slowly. Lift foot slowly off gas...does it still do it?

I bet not.

You'd be betting wrong... When I'm at a stop; there is no speed in which I can gome off the pedal where there isn't a sudden take off. At idle and moving in a parking lot there is also no speed in which I can apply the brakes that doesn't result in jerky stopping. Both of these examples have nothing to do with the transition time. The early part of the brake pedal is too digital. It needs more analog input.

Perhaps I muddied the waters with my earlier example. My transition reaction does exacerbate the issue because I have a habit build in from other vehicles where the first portion of brake movement isn't as reactive as the situation would require.

 

[Grug556]

You'd be betting wrong... When I'm at a stop; there is no speed in which I can gome off the pedal where there isn't a sudden take off. At idle and moving in a parking lot there is also no speed in which I can apply the brakes that doesn't result in jerky stopping. Both of these examples have nothing to do with the transition time. The early part of the brake pedal is too digital. It needs more analog input.

Perhaps I muddied the waters with my earlier example. My transition reaction does exacerbate the issue because I have a habit build in from other vehicles where the first portion of brake movement isn't as reactive as the situation would require.

again I would suggest operator error. Your moving your foot to fast man..hell this isn't ballroom dancing...!:flame:

I suggest the following, get a buddy to drive it watch his feet. Ask him to move slow. IT wont crunch the brakes if you do.

Your moving the pedal to fast because your not use to that huge deadspot on pedal transition where its sloppy and does little. Your mind is pushing literally to fast through the slop section to try and modulate actual braking force. This push or desire to get past the mushy section of pedal travel is making your problem worse.

Do it wearing boots. Heavy boots. I suggest your results will vary.