Brake Downgrade?

[SS_Syndicate]

Operator error. Retry and rethink foot speed. Problem will be fixed asap that way.

It's funny to me how some people assume people's skill of knowledge without knowing them or their past at all.

I've acknowledged the issue is partially ours (wife and I)... but we are both far from rookies at a large array of vehicles in different environments. I'm not going to go into a "who's knowledge ball is bigger" speal here, but you're barking up the wrong tree.

I know how to adjust to drive... I've said that multiple times. My issue is that the 4Runner is so different from other vehicles that it is an issue for us to transition.

My goal here was to discuss upgrades/downgrades/modifications to braking for lower pedal response in the first bit of movement. Honestly, the better target may be master cylinder tweaks, but was curious if anyone had experimented with pad materials as there are some that don't do much until they are heated up a bit.

 

[Grug556]

It's funny to me how some people assume people's skill of knowledge without knowing them or their past at all.

I've acknowledged the issue is partially ours (wife and I)... but we are both far from rookies at a large array of vehicles in different environments. I'm not going to go into a "who's knowledge ball is bigger" speal here, but you're barking up the wrong tree.

I know how to adjust to drive... I've said that multiple times. My issue is that the 4Runner is so different from other vehicles that it is an issue for us to transition.

My goal here was to discuss upgrades/downgrades/modifications to braking for lower pedal response in the first bit of movement. Honestly, the better target may be master cylinder tweaks, but was curious if anyone had experimented with pad materials as there are some that don't do much until they are heated up a bit.

Your still going in the wrong direction. Even going with say stainless lines, hawk pads and slotted/drilled rotors the initial bite if anything will be higher. To reduce bite you are basically talking about reducing overall braking power due to operator inability to work within the system confines.

IT is what it is. Don't take it personally that your driving habits need modification to live with some nanny engineered bullshit brake system. Most of the rest of us have had to do the same thing....all after huge lockups on the highway at speed.

Hey though its a free country so do what you want. Just please post a sign that says..Hey ****ers don't follow to close!!! :suspicious::dizzy::eyebrows:

 

[SS_Syndicate]

Hey though its a free country so do what you want. Just please post a sign that says..Hey ****ers don't follow to close!!! :suspicious::dizzy::eyebrows:

Hahaha, that's funny.... (seriously, no sarcasm... written text takes tone out of things) Anything I poorly type should be read as though we are having a beverage around a camp-fire. :cheers:

I'm not arguing with you on the driver habit at all... After I've been in the Runner for several days I do get better (not good, but better), and then go out in something else and have to start all over.

If I were able to get a smaller piston master cylinder with a longer stroke it should lower the responsiveness while still offering the same braking power at full stroke. (in theory)

If this were one of the rigs I know a lot more about I would be all over this. (I went the other way with our JKU when I swapped to 37s). But I'm not sure what's available for the 5th gens or what they allow without some computer getting mad.

 

[SwayzeExpress]

You'd be betting wrong... When I'm at a stop; there is no speed in which I can gome off the pedal where there isn't a sudden take off. At idle and moving in a parking lot there is also no speed in which I can apply the brakes that doesn't result in jerky stopping.

If this is true just take it to toyota and tell them only this and they (being used to then) will tell you if you have issues. Not being able to drive between 0-5 mph is dangerous and a problem, how do you park and does it act the same in reverse?

Edit: what is your idle rpms in drive with the brakes on - mine is about 650

 

[Saker]

[MENTION=103267]Saker[/MENTION]

I agree mostly agree with you, but there are times were harsh braking is just as dangerous as poor braking.

There is ALWAYS room for driver skill improvement. This said, I do feel like our 4Runner brakes too hard with very little pedal input. The problem is, I've been in others that are this way as well... so it's not really something "wrong".

I feel a trip to a dealer is just a waist of my and their time. "Yes, my 4Runner brakes too well." Even I admit this sounds ridiculous, but the issue is real... at least to us.

So after reading everything posted so far, it leads me to think even more now, since you state you are braking without going into "panic" mode and it is still "over-braking"...
it would be worth a trip to the dealer to have it looked at.

 

[Toffees]

Hahaha, that's funny.... (seriously, no sarcasm... written text takes tone out of things) Anything I poorly type should be read as though we are having a beverage around a camp-fire. :cheers:

I'm not arguing with you on the driver habit at all... After I've been in the Runner for several days I do get better (not good, but better), and then go out in something else and have to start all over.

If I were able to get a smaller piston master cylinder with a longer stroke it should lower the responsiveness while still offering the same braking power at full stroke. (in theory)

If this were one of the rigs I know a lot more about I would be all over this. (I went the other way with our JKU when I swapped to 37s). But I'm not sure what's available for the 5th gens or what they allow without some computer getting mad.

I second the recommendations to try it all out at slow speeds in a contained environment. You describe it as digital, but it's analog like you're used to, just not soft. I've gotten used to it and tune it out, but you can hear the cylinder when you lightly depress the brakes. Also, making matters worse, is the adaptive braking (which is digital--when you hit the pedals faster, it does brake harder), but I think you can figure out the analog portion and control it.

Most people complain about the other end of the braking--creeping forward at a stop--because it takes so "little" pressure to stop that many let off when not moving and they start creeping.

You'll figure it out, but it sounds like the mechanics of the system are counter to all you're used to.

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of business buys 17 4Runners as fleet vehicles?

 

[SS_Syndicate]

If this is true just take it to toyota and tell them only this and they (being used to then) will tell you if you have issues. Not being able to drive between 0-5 mph is dangerous and a problem, how do you park and does it act the same in reverse?

Edit: what is your idle rpms in drive with the brakes on - mine is about 650

I "can" drive at low speeds, but it is pretty tricky. It looks like I'm rocking out and drumming with the brake pedal LOL. The Runner is jumping all about :rockon: (exaggeration again).. a little anyway

Before the loops are closed and first thing in the morning it idles HIGH. I rocket out of our barn/shop and out the driveway. Once it's warmed up it idles around 800.

Yes, reverse and FWD.

So after reading everything posted so far, it leads me to think even more now, since you state you are braking without going into "panic" mode and it is still "over-braking"...
it would be worth a trip to the dealer to have it looked at.

I may try. The dealer that is closer to me is not who I took delivery from. The initial dealer wrote my concern off as "normal" and was unwilling to go for a drive with me. I'll at least mention it with to the new one when I'm in for service.

[SNIP]
If you don't mind me asking, what kind of business buys 17 4Runners as fleet vehicles?

I don't mind at all. I am an Automation and Motion Engineer for an Automation Distributor. We cover Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, and Most of Tennessee. My specific area is Ohio, Louisville and eastern KY, and I'm helping in Nashville.

My job is to be an engineer's engineer and assist with how to automate things in a factory. The largest part of what I do is sizing motors for this. My company has 14 guys like me. Then, there are another 80-ish account managers (sales folks). All of us work from home and drive to customer facilities in our region. There are 102 cars in our fleet. About 25-30 of them are 4Runners (between 2014-2017).

Ford explorers used to be the biggest bang for the buck SUV. Due to high residual values you could get a lot in them at no cost. This has changed as of late and now the 4Runners are the car we can get the cheapest. Fleet deals are like leases. It's all about residual values, and luckily for me and my hobbies, The cheapest (free to me) vehicle I could get was the one I wanted the most. I put about 25-30k on my company car as I tend to only use it for work. My plan with this one is to buy it at the end of the 3-yr term. This is normally a REALLY good deal.

With this all said (sorry it's so much)... Literally every employee that got '17 4Runners are complaining about the braking. So as much as I admit it's largely a driver issue.... My wife and I are FAR from the only ones not liking it.

 

[1engineer]

I "can" drive at low speeds, but it is pretty tricky. It looks like I'm rocking out and drumming with the brake pedal LOL. The Runner is jumping all about :rockon: (exaggeration again).. a little anyway

Before the loops are closed and first thing in the morning it idles HIGH. I rocket out of our barn/shop and out the driveway. Once it's warmed up it idles around 800.

Yes, reverse and FWD.



I may try. The dealer that is closer to me is not who I took delivery from. The initial dealer wrote my concern off as "normal" and was unwilling to go for a drive with me. I'll at least mention it with to the new one when I'm in for service.



I don't mind at all. I am an Automation and Motion Engineer for an Automation Distributor. We cover Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, and Most of Tennessee. My specific area is Ohio, Louisville and eastern KY, and I'm helping in Nashville.

My job is to be an engineer's engineer and assist with how to automate things in a factory. The largest part of what I do is sizing motors for this. My company has 14 guys like me. Then, there are another 80-ish account managers (sales folks). All of us work from home and drive to customer facilities in our region. There are 102 cars in our fleet. About 25-30 of them are 4Runners (between 2014-2017).

Ford explorers used to be the biggest bang for the buck SUV. Due to high residual values you could get a lot in them at no cost. This has changed as of late and now the 4Runners are the car we can get the cheapest. Fleet deals are like leases. It's all about residual values, and luckily for me and my hobbies, The cheapest (free to me) vehicle I could get was the one I wanted the most. I put about 25-30k on my company car as I tend to only use it for work. My plan with this one is to buy it at the end of the 3-yr term. This is normally a REALLY good deal.

With this all said (sorry it's so much)... Literally every employee that got '17 4Runners are complaining about the braking. So as much as I admit it's largely a driver issue.... My wife and I are FAR from the only ones not liking it.

The brakes are different for sure. Not worse, not better, just different. I drove a 4Runner for seven years and got a Tacoma a few months ago. Way different brakes than the 4Runner. We just got my wife a new Highlander. Those brakes are different than the 4Runner, the Honda she traded in and my Tacoma. My point is pretty much all brakes are different. Some by a wide margin, some are close but still different. Have you panic braked yet? That's fun. You stop. NOW.

 

[tacoyota]

I think it just depends on the driver. To me, BMW's have the touchiest brake pads with super initial bite. This 4runner brakes pretty well but it still creeps forward at a stop if you don't press down hard enough lol.

 

[SS_Syndicate]

The brakes are different for sure. Not worse, not better, just different. I drove a 4Runner for seven years and got a Tacoma a few months ago. Way different brakes than the 4Runner. We just got my wife a new Highlander. Those brakes are different than the 4Runner, the Honda she traded in and my Tacoma. My point is pretty much all brakes are different. Some by a wide margin, some are close but still different. Have you panic braked yet? That's fun. You stop. NOW.

YES! It's actually what prompted this thread. The neighbors Chickens were in the ditch across from their place and I didn't see them. (Shame on me, I was fiddling with my phone to call a customer back.) I was startled when they ran across the road. In an effort to not hit them I was pretty quick to the brake and I'm pretty sure I peeled up some pavement coming to a near stop. LOL

I'll get the hang of it... I was just looking for an "easy button". It is nice to know all that braking is there though for when the tires get a little bigger.

 

[ChrisA95713]

I'm with you SS Syndicate. I've got about 4500 miles on my first 4Runner. I've driven Pilots, Prius', Hyundai's, Tacomas, buses and many other vehicles. These are some touchy damn brakes. With that said, I've had to make 2 emergency stops and they work great for that! The only Toyota that I have driven and that I liked the brakes on was my Prius. My Tacoma was way under powered IMHO. With all that said, I am slowly acclimating, though I still catch myself with hard stops and my wife certainly questions why I stop so harshly. These have been a challenge to get used to.

 

[marshal]

this thread makes me want to die

 

[SS_Syndicate]

this thread makes me want to die

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

 

[1engineer]

YES! It's actually what prompted this thread. The neighbors Chickens were in the ditch across from their place and I didn't see them. (Shame on me, I was fiddling with my phone to call a customer back.) I was startled when they ran across the road. In an effort to not hit them I was pretty quick to the brake and I'm pretty sure I peeled up some pavement coming to a near stop. LOL

I'll get the hang of it... I was just looking for an "easy button". It is nice to know all that braking is there though for when the tires get a little bigger.

I have never found the easy button.
I have found the aw shit button several times.
I have found most of the basic physics buttons.
Recently, I even found the simple button.

Life is much better when you find that elusive simple button. Problem is, it takes about 50 years to find it.

 

[1engineer]

this thread makes me want to die

Patience...

 

[marshal]

Patience...

you're not my real dad

 

[ToolUser1]

Different possibility...

I've driven Toyota/Lexus vehicles for years; 4 banger 4WD pickups, several gen Camrys, SC300, MR2, Sienna, etc - and a couple different 4Runners. Never had any issues with the brakes on any of them... until I recently "upgraded" from a Gen3 to a Gen5 4Runner. I found the handling characteristics in the stock 2011 Trail to be abysmally atrocious. Aside from the general mall crawler mushiness, even light braking at highway speeds made it feel like a panic stop. Probably not dangerous but enough to really get your adrenaline flowing for no reason at all. Got to the point my wife wasn't comfortable driving it.

My first reaction was that it was a suspension problem, not a brake problem, and that's what I tackled. I swapped to poly sway bar bushings that helped with cornering but not the "panic stop" nose dive problem. This past weekend I spent $360 on new Bilstein 5100 shocks and swapped them in. Check my recent post for details.

The new shocks have really helped the nose dive problem - probably to the 80% level. Good enough for now but I wish I'd gone with the next level up on the shocks.

In any case, maybe you're barking up the wrong tree with the brakes. Think about whether stiffer shocks would prevent the nose-dive sensation that's making it feel like a panic stop.

Overall I'm generally less happy with this vehicle than any other Toyota/Lexus I've owned - really shouldn't have these types of crappy design issues. Probably won't keep it long term and that's a first for me.

 

[Ezlife45]

Personally I would never do anything intentionally to any vehicle that would reduce it's braking capability. Maybe I would try different pads and if the result was reduced capability I would simply never use those pads again. I think the OP needs to try other vehicles to compare it to. Are other 4runners giving you the same braking issues? If so, maybe it's you. If not, maybe it's your vehicle.

I can say my 4runner has OK brakes but it does not stop on a dime. If you want to see what I mean, go drive a vette, mustang with the brembo brake package or a hellcat with it's 15.4" front rotors and six piston calipers. Now that would be a better stopper than a 4 runner.

 

[1engineer]

you're not my real dad

I might be. I was adopted so I have no idea....

 

[Argyle Edison]

Good grief :crazy:

Everyone who drives thinks they know how to drive properly. Get over yourself and do some reading on threshold braking. Learn to control your pressure and understand that it's a hydraulic system ...nothing more.

Yeah yeah, you know how to drive.... sure