Brake Pedal Feels Soft 2017 TRD Off Road

[zzdocxx]

hope this gets resolved for you. lucky you were able to get a good part in a relatively short time. It was a long shot that toyota would cover this so there's no surprise there when they said no. I would expect the same from corporate but you might get lucky again! even if they did cover it will probably be more expensive than the used part but then again you are getting a new part

You are right so far. I finally got to talk to a senior "brand relations" person and he was very nice but it does not look hopeful. He will try to escalate it and get back to me in a couple of days.

Meanwhile, I have reported this to the NHTSA through their web portal.
Not sure if there are other agencies I can report this to? ? ?

I think my argument is pretty clear. 1. it is pretty new and should not have failed. 2. Poses significant safety hazard.

If the answer is still "no" in a couple of days, I will just go ahead and get the repair done.

The independent shop where I have my vehicle maintained has seen a Lexus which had the exact same problem. I have seen hardly anything about the part when I googled it. Therefore I suspect it is not a very common problem and a recall is unlikely . . .

 

[zzdocxx]

Faulty Brake Actuator & Brake Booster Pump on Toyota & Lexus Cars

Not applicable to my year but it seems like they are having enough problems to prompt this:

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Faulty Brake Actuator & Brake Booster Pump on Toyota & Lexus Cars
Recently we’ve got a bunch of warning lights on the dashboard of our Toyota Highlander Hybrid Limited indicating a brake system malfunction and urging us to stop the vehicle in a safe location. The brakes were still working and we were able to carefully and safely drive home. After scanning the car for ABS error codes and doing a quick online search, I realized that the brake actuator assembly failed in our car. Let me share with you how I was able to figure that out and how I got it repaired for free.

According to several official Toyota and Lexus customer support program notifications, certain Lexus and Toyota car models have been reported having brake actuator assembly and brake booster pump assembly internal malfunctions. This issue could be repaired free of charge by the manufacturer if several specific conditions could be verified. The following warning lights will be illuminated on the instrument cluster or information display: yellow master warning light, the red brake system warning light and buzzer, yellow ABS warning light, yellow SLIP indicator light. The brake booster pump could be turning on frequently or working constantly. Unusual squeaky noise can be heard when depressing the brake pedal. In addition, the ABS Diagnostic Trouble Codes C1391, C1252, C1256 or C1253 may be stored in the vehicle’s memory.

The cause of this issue
This condition may be caused by small internal brake fluid leak inside the brake actuator assembly due to improper sealing. Brake booster pump moor might be turning on frequently or without breaking as a result of internal leakage, causing it to wear out prematurely.

Which vehicles does it affect?
This issue has been reported to affect several models of Toyota & Lexus vehicles. As time goes on, this problem may affect more cars, since the issue is most likely to manifest itself in high mileage vehicles. For your reference, here are a list of known affected models as well as customer support program names for each vehicle:

2006-2007 Toyota Highlander Hybrid
2004-2010 Toyota Prius
2007-2011 Toyota Camry Hybrid
2016 Toyota Rav4
2006-2007 Lexus GS430
2007-2011 Lexus GS450H
2008-2011 Lexus GS460
2007-2013 Lexus LS460
2006-2008 Lexus RX450H or RX400H
2010 Lexus HS250H
2016 Lexus ES350
2016 Lexus RX350

I also found the following customer support programs and recalls have been issued to address this problem: ZKC, ZG1, ZJB, ZLG, G0I, GLC, ZE1, 13V-235, 16V198.

Symptoms of a faulty brake actuator and brake booster pump assembly
Yellow Master Warning light on
Red Brake System Warning light on
Yellow ABS Warning light on
Yellow SLIP Indicator light on
Check VSC message is displayed
Brake system warning buzzer
Squeaky noise when depressing the brake pedal
Brake booster pump working nonstop or turning on too frequently
Poor brake performance or brakes malfunction
ABS DTC error codes stored in the ECU

ABS error code definitions
When brake actuator assembly fails on your car you may one of a few of the following ABS diagnostic error codes. You will need an advanced diagnostic scanner that can read ABS error codes to be able to read these codes. I am personally using this BlueDriver diagnostic scanner (this is Amazon affiliate link), but there are many other diagnostic scanners out there that you can use as well.

C1391 – Abnormal Leak of Accumulator Pressure
C1252 – Brake Booster Pump Motor ON Time Abnormally Long
C1253 – Brake Booster Pump Motor Circuit
C1256 – Accumulator Low Pressure

What should you do?
Toyota began to notify owners in late June 2019 and will be mailing the owners of affected vehicles over several months. If your vehicle qualifies for the voluntary customer support program, you will receive a notification letter in the mail. If you are experiencing all or some of the symptoms mentioned above, contact your local Toyota or Lexus dealership and make arrangements for diagnosis and (if necessary) repair. If the condition is verified, the dealer will replace the Brake Actuator Assembly and Brake Booster Pump Assembly with a new one FREE OF CHARGE.

Example of the official letter from Toyota
Here is an example of the Customer Support Program / Warranty Extension (ZKC) notification I received in the mail from Toyota Motor Sales USA for our 2008 Highlander Hybrid:

Toyota Highlander 2008 2009 2010 Lexus ZKC recall customer support program brake actuator failure 08 09 letter official
Toyota Highlander 2008 2009 2010 Lexus ZKC recall customer support program brake actuator failure 08 09 official letter
Toyota Highlander 2008 2009 2010 Lexus ZKC recal customer support program brake actuator failure
According to the official notification letter from Toyota, the Primary Coverage for our vehicle is active until December 31, 2020, regardless of mileage. After the Primary Coverage, the Secondary Coverage is applicable for 10 years or 150,000 miles from the vehicle’s date of first use, whichever occurs first.

Remedy Procedures:
Technical instructions for aforementioned Customer Support Programs can be found in the following technical service bulletins:

T-SB-0064-19
T-SB-0079-18
T-SB-0032-16
L-SB-0016-16

Frequently Asked Questions

What if the diagnosis is performed and my vehicle is not covered by the Customer Support Program?
If the condition is not covered by this Customer Support Program, you may be responsible for the initial diagnostic fees and any other repairs you may decide to have performed. Any authorized Toyota dealership can determine if a condition is covered by this Customer Support Program. Your consent is required before any repairs can be performed on your vehicle.

What if an owner HAS NOT experienced this condition but would like to have the repair completed?
This Customer Support Program only applies to vehicles that have exhibited the condition described above. If an owner has not experienced the condition, he/she is asked to tear off the sheet included in the owner letter and insert it into the Owner’s Warranty Information Booklet for future reference.

What if I previously paid for repairs related to this Customer Support Program?
Reimbursement consideration instructions will be provided in the owner’s letter.

What if I have additional questions or concerns?
If you have additional questions or concerns, please contact the Toyota Customer Experience Center at 1-888-270-9371 Monday through Friday, 7:00 am to 7:00 pm, Saturday 7:00 am to 4:30 pm Central Time.

 

[CavPro]

Some parts should always be off limits when it comes to replacing with 'used' 'unknown history' parts. Quick example; Tire blow out (right rear) on my Excursion, 2k body damage, exhaust and wheel which held the bad tire. My insurance co and the body shop replaced the factory OEM wheel with one which was refurbished by a wheel company that caters to the body shops. Fast forward 5-6 years, towing my 10k gvwr travel trailer with about 1000 lb tongue weight. Slowed behind heavy commute traffic on freeway and came to a stop. When I went to accelerate away I couldn't go, thought it was a trailer tire/wheel issue, got to the right shoulder and my rear tire was flat, bed torn, wheel flange split apart. Had no idea why. Got to an America's tire after changing out tire. They put a new tire on a cheap aftermarket wheel that was now my spare for this trip. They brought the wheel out to me after taking the tire off and it was the wheel that was replaced in the blow-out. It still had the label from the wheel refurbishing on the inside of the rim. Never again.

Nobody would stand behind the wheel after the fact. Vented with the shop and my insurance. I did get them to get me a new, OEM wheel at their cost. Be very careful especially with a complex braking system.

 

[zzdocxx]

The brakes on my 2017 Off Road feel mushy too!
My wife had a 2016 SR5 and the brakes on it were firm and crisp.

But I can attest that the ABS works great! Saved my bacon it did.
I wasn't really paying attention when a car in front of me, initially making a run for a yellow light, suddenly slammed on the brakes.
I’m an old school well trained x-emergency vehicle driver. My first instinct was to threshold brake (where you keep it at the threshold of a skid with leg muscle control).
With reaction time, I braced to plow into him. And then did the panic mash on the brake. This system freakin works! It made all that racket like crawl control does and stopped just in time. I was so close I thought the front dip was going to tap him.

It seemed like there was no in between though. It didn’t let me foot the pedal very firmly and result in a hard braking.

On a side note, I also noticed a huge difference in engine breaking, especially down hill. Her 2016 SR5 had really good engine braking when you let off the gas.
In my ‘17 Off Road I may as well let off the gas and put it in neutral.

Our 2017 had weird brake pedal feel when new. Had a panic stop. Afterward the brakes felt decent.

1.) Check your brake fluid fill after their flush.

2.) I had a big Dodge Durango (whose brakes feel most like my T4R) that had “plenty large” tires, as well as 4 wheel disc brakes with ABS which I had confirmed was working in inclement conditions.

However, one day when I had to make a panic stop in fair weather, the ABS did not engage (because the brakes didn’t lock up, technically) my brakes were simply “maxed out” despite fresh pads and rotors on 4 corners done at the dealer that year.

Let me try to explain what I mean by “maxed out”:

1.) Normal driving and braking felt really good, typical
2.) Pedal was NOT touching floor / at end of range of travel
3.) I felt good power assist, however the firm and quick press of the pedal did not cause tires to bark, hence not engaging ABS
4.) Collision avoided, but sometimes I imagine you just won’t get ABS if you’re not actually losing traction or locking up a wheel


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ABS only actuates when tire slip occurs. To confirm it is working find a low mu surface (gravel, grass, ice, smooth wet concrete, etc..) and slam those brakes, you'll get the duh-duh-duh if its working.

Loss of braking pressure is likely booster or leak. Do you have to continuously pump the brakes over a drive to get any pedal response?

What tires are you using? Have you changed recently? Off-road tires typically reduce braking performance and feel soft/squishy.

My first thought is; I'm glad I sprang for an extended warranty.

:yuck::yuck::yuck:

On a 2017.. how many miles? That's a serious failure and safety issue for such a new vehicle. I would petition Toyota corporate to cover it.

Contact Us | Contact Toyota

Scroll to the bottom “need further assistance” and call. Considering the age and nature of the device it’s highly unlikely the failure was caused by “abuse” and so I think the Toyota engineers will be interested in tearing down this unit and Toyota may cover repair. This is totally abnormal and not a normal “wear” item. You will have to put the effort in, but you have a decent chance in this case IMO

Thanks for that, I will give it a try.

Update: I got a call back from the Toyota senior brand representative. He said he was still working on seeing if he could get Toyota to assist with the repair.

I apprised him of the information posted above pertaining to the numerous recalls on this same type of part on Toyota and Lexus vehicle models dating from 2004 to 2016. He seemed to not be accepting of that since there has not been a recall on my vehicle. I also pointed out that the recall letter came out in 2019, which was 15 years after the first model year covered.

He is supposed to call me back by next Tuesday, so we'll see what happens next. He said he has reached out to the dealer and hopes he will be able to give me some good news when we talk again. (I realize the news may not be favorable but we'll just see.)

I was talking to a friend whose cousin trains car salesmen back on the East Coast. His cousin somehow got him registered on a private forum for car sales people. He told me he learned that whenever there is a major repair, some service departments will "always try to make the charges come out to over $2,000."

If I adopted his skeptical approach, I might ask, "Can a repair be done to address the specific point of failure on this assembly?" I'm not sure how I could ascertain that.

Thanks for everyone's input, it has been super helpful.

:yo:

 

[Bmnorm2]

Thanks for keeping us abreast and maintaining your position. Keep pushing zzdocxx! You are in the right and this could set a precedent for others in experience the same failure.

This is simply unacceptable, I've owned 10s of vehicles 2010+ with close to 100,000 miles and not a single one has had an issue with the ABS unit. This is not something Toyota wants to ignore.

 

[zzdocxx]

Bad news today. The rep called and said all avenues exhausted for getting assistance with this problem.

Setting aside the question of used vs new part replacement based on actual safety, I’m wondering if recouping any of this expense would depend on replacing the part with a brand new part.

Ie. would I be barred from compensation due to any future recall, eg. “It voids the warranty “ or something like that?

 

[Humble Leader]

Bad news today. The rep called and said all avenues exhausted for getting assistance with this problem.

Setting aside the question of used vs new part replacement based on actual safety, I’m wondering if recouping any of this expense would depend on replacing the part with a brand new part.

Ie. would I be barred from compensation due to any future recall, eg. “It voids the warranty “ or something like that?

at least you tried - the outcome was as expected though. in terms of warranties, there is a lot of misconception and misunderstanding on what voids a warranty or not. in short, going to your own mechanic or using an aftermarket part will not void warranty unless somehow the dealer could prove that an aftermarket part or other mechanic was the cause of the problem. there is a lot of paperwork and fine prints with warranties. but if you really want to research more about this - look up the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act. regular servicing and keeping receipts is the best way to avoid any warranty issues, which it looks like you have done

warranty and recall are different though. if a part is recalled, regardless of what part is currently on your vehicle you should be able to get it replaced free of charge with an updated (safer) part

 

[harper7]

If you look on youtube,
search" SHOULD YOU BUY A 4RUNNER,ARE THE BRAKES ANY GOOD" by the car care nut.
At about 8:30 he explains that the electric motor that pressurizes the accumulater is what goes bad. A good overall read on our Fred Flintstone era brakes too.

The bad part is you have to replace the whole unit instead of the brushes for the motor. You would think if somebody could come up with a DIY brush replacement for the motor,they would make some big bucks.

Edit.....Somebody is selling new armature and brushes on eBay.
Search..TOYOTA 4RUNNER LEXUS GX470 ABS BRAKE PUMP MOTOR REPAIR KIT

 

[zzdocxx]

at least you tried - the outcome was as expected though. in terms of warranties, there is a lot of misconception and misunderstanding on what voids a warranty or not. in short, going to your own mechanic or using an aftermarket part will not void warranty unless somehow the dealer could prove that an aftermarket part or other mechanic was the cause of the problem. there is a lot of paperwork and fine prints with warranties. but if you really want to research more about this - look up the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act. regular servicing and keeping receipts is the best way to avoid any warranty issues, which it looks like you have done

warranty and recall are different though. if a part is recalled, regardless of what part is currently on your vehicle you should be able to get it replaced free of charge with an updated (safer) part

That is interesting. I googled the law and it is a lot for a lay person to digest. So yeah, the question being whether installing a used part etc. The lady at the shop says it definitely would although I wonder if she really knows or is just erring on the side of caution.

She wants to check with the used parts guy and see whether there are numbers that would need to match, or if something would tell them it had been removed, or was from another vehicle. (I still am not convinced that it would matter.

If there are issues as to whether something has been removed, well that brings up more questions, eg. what about if you just took the electric motor out of the "new" used part and put that into the broken part ?
Gets complicated.

If you look on youtube,
search" SHOULD YOU BUY A 4RUNNER,ARE THE BRAKES ANY GOOD" by the car care nut.
At about 8:30 he explains that the electric motor that pressurizes the accumulater is what goes bad. A good overall read on our Fred Flintstone era brakes too.

The bad part is you have to replace the whole unit instead of the brushes for the motor. You would think if somebody could come up with a DIY brush replacement for the motor,they would make some big bucks.

Wow that hits the nail on the head, amazing. That's what I was wondering about, whether there was some part of the assembly that failed and whether just that could be fixed, the answers to which seem to be "yes" and "no".

It would be interesting to see if just that little motor could be scavenged from the used part, (see above), lady at the shop is concerned about potential issues should there be a recall.

 

[zzdocxx]

Thanks again everyone.

The only question now is whether to get it done $200 cheaper at the local independent shop vs. the dealer.

I trust the local shop, but there is the consideration that they were unable to diagnose the problem in the first place.

Talking $3760 vs ~$3500, around 7% difference. I am leaning toward the dealer doing it . . .

Any thoughts on this ?

 

[Humble Leader]

Thanks again everyone.

The only question now is whether to get it done $200 cheaper at the local independent shop vs. the dealer.

I trust the local shop, but there is the consideration that they were unable to diagnose the problem in the first place.

Talking $3760 vs ~$3500, around 7% difference. I am leaning toward the dealer doing it . . .

Any thoughts on this ?

this is not a common or routine repair for a local shop. in fact it's probably not a common or routine repair for a dealer but probably one that one of the techs has some experience / know how / confidence in doing. maybe it's a simple swap out for a part, I don't know. but for that price difference my vote is dealer, that's what I would do

 

[Bmnorm2]

I vote dealer too. If there is a recall or reimbursement in the future it will be $200 easier to get Or if there is an issue during or after install, it will be easier to get support.

 

[zzdocxx]

Hi again everyone, I've been working out of town for the past several months and have had this on the back burner.

I will definitely have it repaired at the dealer.

Another question though.

If my brakes did go out and I were to have the presence of mind to step on the emergency brake, would that work?

In my older vehicles it was actuated by a cable mechanism which was separate from the regular hydraulics.

Anybody?

Thanks!

:tea:

PS Or I suppose I should have said "parking brake".

 

[Bmnorm2]

The parking brake will help slow you down some, but it doesn't provide anywhere near the power of your brakes. So, no, not really unless you are going relatively slow.

Easy proof: push parking brake all the way down, put in drive, it's not that hard to overcome. Push brakes fully and try to drive away, you aren't going anywhere.

 

[zzdocxx]

The parking brake will help slow you down some, but it doesn't provide anywhere near the power of your brakes. So, no, not really unless you are going relatively slow.

Easy proof: push parking brake all the way down, put in drive, it's not that hard to overcome. Push brakes fully and try to drive away, you aren't going anywhere.

Yeah I guess I have noticed that.

Anyway when the dust settles from paying my taxes I think i will just have to cough up the $4K to get this done.

:sobbing:

 

[zzdocxx]

Update:

Took it into the dealership that correctly(?) diagnosed the problem early this morning.

When the service writer called me in the waiting area, he said the repair is $2200 and change, which surprised me.

I could have sworn this was a $3800 repair. I to told him I thought it was going to be a lot more but he assured me etc.

I hope they are replacing the right part . . .

(They are replacing the ABS actuator, which sounds like the right part.)

 

[zzdocxx]

I hope I'm not beating a dead horse here.

I've noticed since the repair was done that I've got a lot of travel on my brake pedal, in other words it's pretty soft.

I tried putting the brakes on hard, and I didn't get any stutter like the ABS would give me, however I noticed that after I did that my pedal was much firmer.

My question: I thought pumping the brakes to get more pedal only worked if there was a fault somewhere in the system. Is that correct, or would I also see that if the system was in perfect working order also?

I'm just wondering if there's a malfunctioning valve, or leak, or air bubble, in the system?

Can anyone shed some light on this?


Thank you.

 

[Bmnorm2]

glad to hear you got the repair and that it was significantly cheaper.

As far as before and after, you don't exactly have a good baseline since your "before" was with a malfunctioning component. Can you try driving a similar 4runner?

 

[2021nightshade4x4]

I hope I'm not beating a dead horse here.

I've noticed since the repair was done that I've got a lot of travel on my brake pedal, in other words it's pretty soft.

I tried putting the brakes on hard, and I didn't get any stutter like the ABS would give me, however I noticed that after I did that my pedal was much firmer.

My question: I thought pumping the brakes to get more pedal only worked if there was a fault somewhere in the system. Is that correct, or would I also see that if the system was in perfect working order also?

I'm just wondering if there's a malfunctioning valve, or leak, or air bubble, in the system?

Can anyone shed some light on this?


Thank you.

Depends on whether:

1.) Pumping the brakes TEMPORARILY firmed up the pedal until the next time the vehicle was started, or

2.) The pedal was still firm/normal the next time you started the vehicle.

If #1, then you still have a problem, if #2, it was air in the ABS pump that got cleared out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[zzdocxx]

Depends on whether:

1.) Pumping the brakes TEMPORARILY firmed up the pedal until the next time the vehicle was started, or

2.) The pedal was still firm/normal the next time you started the vehicle.

If #1, then you still have a problem, if #2, it was air in the ABS pump that got cleared out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you, yes temporarily.

I woke up early Tuesday and got to the dealer before opening time.

Yup, there was an air bubble in the line. They flushed it out, no charge (as it should be).

Brakes feel normal, finally.

Thanks to everyone who provided input on this thread.

:thanks: