Break problems...HELP?

[2soon4hoon]

So here we go. Sorry its gonna be a long post.

Turkey basted the old master cylinder and pulled it. Removed every flexible hose from the system as well as calipers, small hard lines and t connectors when able. Removed both wheel cylinders, and the proportioning valve. Rebuilt rear brakes with new pads and cleaned all old parts. Sprayed brake cleaner through all hard lines until only cleaner ran out. Blew compressed air through all hard lines until no moisture was present. sprayed cleaner through all t connectors and proportioning valve followed with compressed air to make sure they were dry as well. Replaced all new flexible hoses, wheel cylinders, both calipers, front brake pads, front hoses, and new master cylinder. Did not bench bleed anything because I didn't know how to. Buddy bled the shit out of the system starting first at the right rear then left rear then right front then left front wheel. Then repeated the same procedure again. went through almost two full large bottles of brake fluid. Jumped in and my brakes are non existent just like before. Pedal gets soft immediately and goes to the floor. It will eventually stop the truck but at a slow speed it would take forever to do it. Absolutely not safe to drive. emergency brake pulls way out too. Thought that with new pads on the back it wouldn't pull out as much as it used to.

I am 1000% that we got everything hooked up correctly and that there is no way we could have recontaminated the system. (yes I am doing all this because power steering fluid was added to my brake system). What the hell am I missing? Did we just not get all the air out from the system? Wouldn't my brakes be slightly better even if we didn't?

The only two other things I can say is that (1) when my brakes began to fail in the first place there were two separate occasions that I jumped in my truck and when I first pushed the brake pedal I heard what sounded like a spring stretching across something and popping from under the dash. And (2) for a few weeks my pedal would go from super firm to super soft and back often within the same trip to the store. I also have noticed that when I pump the brakes my idle gets very erratic and almost dies leading me to wonder if the booster has failed. I am assuming there is some kind of problem with vacuum somewhere to make my idle so screwy. HELP!

 

[2soon4hoon]

Can anyone tell me if there is one shaft that connects to the brake pedal that runs through the brake booster and into the master cylinder? Or is it two separate (one on each side of the booster? I am pretty sure that when I pulled and put the new Master cylinder on there was no shaft that went out of the booster and there is not one stuck in the old master. All I can see is a cup with wear marks inside the old master. Where did the shaft go? Could it slip inside the booster? I know there is a huge possibility that I am going to come off like a dumb Noob but if the shoe fits I guess.

 

[KidVermicious]

Gotta bench bleed the master. Google it, it's not hard.

 

[2soon4hoon]

OK so I will definitely bench bleed the 2nd new master cylinder I just picked up. I am convinced we just didn't do a good job bleeding the first one but it looked like it was not working correctly. When you pumped the brakes and held the pedal it would hold. But as soon as you let it go and pushed it back down the pedal would drop all the way to the floor...AND the volume of fluid in the reservoir would actually raise slightly. Not a lot but it would climb. I am making an assumption but I didn't think the master should ever let fluid pass back through into the reservoir? Worst case is the old one was OK and we get a better bleed on the new one this time by doing it on the bench first. I really want this to work. My wife needs here car back. lol I also replaced a few vacuum lines that went to the booster as well. One had a few cracks in it and the main one that goes directly into the booster looked like it was almost completely collapsed.

 

[2soon4hoon]

:yield::yield::yield:

I give up. Its better than I am. Bench bled the second master cylinder (your right it was easy) then bled the whole system in farthest wheel to closest order and I still have no pedal. Pushed a lot of fluid through the system and felt good that we didn't see any air left in the fluid. The only parts I didn't replace were the booster, drums and discs. Oh and the little doohickey that adjusts the rear brakes when you have the truck loaded down. You know what I'm talking about? Its mounted above the rear right wheel and has a rod that travels down to the axle. But I did pull all the lines from it and clean it out with brake cleaner and compressed air just like I did on every single hard line and t connecter. Non of the connections we broke then reattached are weeping at all. All the bleeder valves, hard line connections and hoses are dry and free of drips.

At this point I think I'm gonna just take it to a shop and see if they can power bleed the system and or diagnose what the F the problem is. Very frustrated and feeling defeated.

 

[mikekfr]

Man i went thru this on my Yota pickup recently.....i remedied the 'non brake feeling' by bleeding the master cylinder into itself....of course this was after i put new brakes on front, including calipers, and possibly replaced a master cylinder that was working ok.....i hadn't bled the master cylinder into itself and like you, i was getting no brakes at all on the front.

Before you take it to the shop, disconnect the two brake lines from the master cylinder and do 1 of 2 things, buy a barbed fitting to fit into the threads, or just buy a short brake line and push a hose over it.....put the unused end of the rubber hose back into the brake fluid in the MC. Use clear hose so you can see the bubbles as you have someone pump the $hit outta the brakes. After you do that and you get to where there's no more bubbles....go in your truck and pump the brakes like 40 times AFTER you re-connect the brake lines ( at this point, i did the test drive in my driveway and then re-bled every wheel once the next morning ) . That's how i finally got my front brakes to kick in.....i forget which forum i read about pumping the brakes 40 times afterwards, but it made all the difference ( along with the bleeding the MC into it's own reservoir).

Good luck. I'm no master mechanic but i can assure you, the least little bit of air/moisture inside that master cylinder will shut the entire brake system down.

 

[KidVermicious]

The doohickey above the rear axle is the Load Sensing Proportioning Valve. Not to ask stupid questions, but did you bleed it too?

 

[RiFF RaFF]

The doohickey above the rear axle is the Load Sensing Proportioning Valve. Not to ask stupid questions, but did you bleed it too?

What Kid said. I was having a soft brake problem with my 93 after doing a caliper fix. Bled the brakes, and still had soft pedal problem. Rebled the brakes, but this time also did the bleeder located just above the rear diff, and then the two rear brakes, and that did the trick. Damn valve holds air pockets really well.

:50cal:

 

[2soon4hoon]

First of all Thank you all for your thoughts on this. Im really at a loss.

No I didnt bleed the doohickey! I'll try tonight. The thing that has me so frustrated is that the pedal feels exactly like it did befor eht whole system was cleaned or replaced. I would think I would have a little better pedal. Can the doohickey go bad? could that have been my problem in the first place? Oh god, are there any rubber parts in the Doohickey?
Another craze question... could the shaft that goes through the booster break? Could I not be engaging the master all the way and still be able to push so much fluid through the system?

 

[mikekfr]

bleed the master cylinder into it's own reservoir, pump the brakes a boatload of times afterwards.......until your leg gets tired, and you may just feel some of that brake pedal again when it's all said and done. Try it before you throw in the towel.

 

[RiFF RaFF]

First of all Thank you all for your thoughts on this. Im really at a loss.

No I didnt bleed the doohickey! I'll try tonight. The thing that has me so frustrated is that the pedal feels exactly like it did befor eht whole system was cleaned or replaced. I would think I would have a little better pedal. Can the doohickey go bad? could that have been my problem in the first place? Oh god, are there any rubber parts in the Doohickey?
Another craze question... could the shaft that goes through the booster break? Could I not be engaging the master all the way and still be able to push so much fluid through the system?

Here's a picture of the bleeder valve. Do this one first before the two on the drums.

 

[2soon4hoon]

I feel like I'm so close. But I ran out of time. Grandma passed away and I'm off to WA. State for the service. I took the truck to the shop that fixed my electrical problem and told them I didn't need it until next Monday. When I dropped it off I looked over the entire brake line system...every inch and there is absolutely no wetness or drips collecting on any nipple, line, hose backing plate or anything. Feeling confident that we did a good job on the service (minus the bleed that is).

Thank you mikekfr, RiFF RaFF, and KidVermicious for your help. I bet I could have gotten it eventually with your directing me to those trouble spots. I'll post the outcome when I get back.

I really love this site.

 

[RiFF RaFF]

I feel like I'm so close. But I ran out of time. Grandma passed away and I'm off to WA. State for the service. I took the truck to the shop that fixed my electrical problem and told them I didn't need it until next Monday. When I dropped it off I looked over the entire brake line system...every inch and there is absolutely no wetness or drips collecting on any nipple, line, hose backing plate or anything. Feeling confident that we did a good job on the service (minus the bleed that is).

Thank you mikekfr, RiFF RaFF, and KidVermicious for your help. I bet I could have gotten it eventually with your directing me to those trouble spots. I'll post the outcome when I get back.

I really love this site.

I'm sorry for your loss. May God bless your Grandma, and keep her close.

 

[mikekfr]

Sorry for your loss man.....i hope you get good news on your return, let us know.

 

[2soon4hoon]

Thanks for the kind thoughts about Grandma. She was 95, lived her life on her terms with no major health problems up until the last 2 months when her memory really faded fast. She took a turn and in a week she was gone. Although there were tears at the service it was definitely much more of a celebration than a wake. Hope I'm as lucky.

So the shop called today with bad news. Said the master cylinder was bad. This was already the second one I installed. They let me warranty it again at O'Reilly and bring it back to them for a bench bleed and reinstall tomorrow. WTF. One shop quoted 75bucks to power bleed it for me. I took it to them because they fixed my weird wiring problem but I'm already in to them for 3 hrs at 105 an hr. They aren't power bleeding it, there buddy bleeding it just like I was. What do I do if they cant get it bled? Do I have any recourse on paying them if it goes out in the same condition as it came in?

Maybe I should hold off and give them tomorrow before I freak out.

 

[2soon4hoon]

Picked up my truck from the shop today. Pedal isn't as firm as I had hoped for after replacing everything, but I do have brakes. They feel just like they did before this whole ordeal began. My rotors and drums are the only two parts that I didn't replace and knowing now how bad I am at bleeding the system I really wish I had at least replaced the rotors. The LSPV did have air in it, a ton apparently. The one nice thing that happened was that the shop told me if i had any problems to bring it back because it would be under warranty. You know this truck has been my daily driver for 23 years now. But I dont think I could tell you what a good pedal should feel like. My brakes have never been something that gave me doubts so I I never focused on them. Think I'm going to find some 87 trucks and runners for sale on Craigslist and go test drive them, just to see if there is a noticeable difference from mine.

 

[nevada]

Picked up my truck from the shop today. Pedal isn't as firm as I had hoped for after replacing everything, but I do have brakes. They feel just like they did before this whole ordeal began. My rotors and drums are the only two parts that I didn't replace and knowing now how bad I am at bleeding the system I really wish I had at least replaced the rotors. The LSPV did have air in it, a ton apparently. The one nice thing that happened was that the shop told me if i had any problems to bring it back because it would be under warranty. You know this truck has been my daily driver for 23 years now. But I dont think I could tell you what a good pedal should feel like. My brakes have never been something that gave me doubts so I I never focused on them. Think I'm going to find some 87 trucks and runners for sale on Craigslist and go test drive them, just to see if there is a noticeable difference from mine.

you can replace the rotors without needing to bleed the system again.

 

[KidVermicious]

I think you can replace the drums without cracking the brake system too? Maybe not, it's been a bit since I've played with drum brakes.

A good pedal should be soft at first, rapidly getting firmer until it gets completely stiff about 3/4ths of the way to the floor. Or at least that's how I like it.

A couple more ideas - adjust the plunger into the master cylinder, you might not be getting a complete stroke out of it which leads to soft brakes. Also crank your ebrake about fifty times to adjust the rears, that could be part of the problem too. If the automatic tensioner doesn't work, you can adjust that manually too. There's procedures for both in the FSM or your Chilton or Haynes book.

 

[BigRyan1986]

i had this sort of a problem in my 79 camaro and a 86 honda try jacking the back end up as high as you possibly can and leave it like that for a day or two than try bleeding the brakes again this will help to move any little bits of air to the back to bleed out

 

[2soon4hoon]

Well I guess I'll look into rotors next then. I think I'm going to just start going down a list of things I have been putting off for a while. I want to replace all the bushings and shocks on the truck. I have heard they drive 1000% better after. I find myself doing a lot of bump steering just to keep it in my lane these days. I should replace one if not both cv joints (ripped boot and clunky sounds from the left front), I let an old garage back in Chico get away with a shade tree fix on a gasket and now you can barely see an engine under all the oil. Catalytic converter is done (but I have 2 years to replace it before my next smog). Worn out seats and carpet. Broken center console I need to repair. I'm fine with my body and paint for a while even though it has more than a few dings and the clear is shot on hood and roof. Oh!.. clutch and slave cylinder. Another short that keeps popping my tail light. I'm sure theirs more but They are mostly cosmetic. It sounds like a lot but I dont think it would take much to address most of them.