Bring back the power

[bawachhe]

Hi.
I'm aware that it probably wasn't ideal conditions, but using a bluetooth to OBDII and my phone with the android Torque app, i measured an instantaneous power output on the high end at 180hp. Since I have a v8, I have to wonder where the other ~80hp went, since it can't have all been lost just to non-ideal conditions while flooring it.

There are plenty of people asking the question of how to make their t4r more powerful, if not on the forum (after which they usually get yelled at), then in their minds.

I'm sort of asking that, but not exactly.

Instead, I'm asking how to bring back the power that was lost over time and use.
What sorts of cheap/simple tuneups can I do (other than the usual making sure all the fluids are topped off and clean enough, tires regular pressure, etc) to bring some of that back? Maybe some small seals that need replacing, etc. etc.

Also, I've heard about this mystical thing called water injection that usually accompanies turbocharging, but apparently works pretty well on most non-naturally-aspirated engines with or without the turbocharge, to increase power output and fuel efficiency while at the same time "steam cleaning" and therefore improving the insides of the cylinders, but this is all hearsay. Anyone with any experience/data about that?

By the way, I'm not interested in any super- or turbo-charging options unless they're under $400 but I wouldn't oppose the idea if it could be done while not ruining the engine very quickly (I've also heard that it's not advisable to raise compression much because some critical component of the (american, at least) 2UZ-FE don't like that at all).

TIA.

 

[03_4x4Runner]

I do not know anything about the app you are using or if they are measuring rear wheel horsepower or flywheel horsepower. If they are trying to simulate rear wheel horsepower it will be much less than flywheel power because the transmission and axles take a certain percent of the horsepower.

 

[97BlackAckCL]

Keep in mind that engine horsepower does not equal wheel/axle horsepower. With that said, if you feel that your truck has a lag in throttle response, you could look into cleaning the fuel system, replacing the spark plugs, the air filter, removing the HCF filter which chokes the hell out of the engine, or perhaps your car is running too rich or lean. There's a lot of avenues to explore, these are just some basic things to look into depending on the mileage and condition of your engine. Simple maintenance and a few small improvements should help your truck respond better, but also don't trust a phone app to give you accurate dyno readings.

 

[m85476585]

According to this dyno test, 200hp at the wheels is about right:
http://www.knfilters.com/dynocharts/77-9029_dyno.pdf

How does Torque even calculate power? If it uses weight and acceleration, it seems like there's a lot of room for error since you also have drag and rolling resistance slowing you down. Make sure the weight setting is accurate, and account for the car, yourself, mods, gas, cargo, etc. A real dyno would have rolling resistance but not drag, but they might calibrate it out. Rolling on a small roller has more resistance than rolling on flat pavement, as far as I know (based on experience with bike trainers)

There are lots of small things you can do that might or might not make a measureable difference, like check your air filter, remove the HCF, clean the MAF sensor and TB, switch to premium gas and reset the ECU or use it for a few tanks, turn off A/C (if the defroster is running, A/C runs too), make sure the car is fully at operating temperature (maybe 20 minutes of driving even after the temp gauge hits the middle), make sure the battery is fully charged so the alternator isn't draining power, use synthetic fluids, etc.

Altitude also makes a difference, which is probably not a problem in Southern California, but it's significant in Colorado. High in the mountains (12,000 feet) a NA engine could have 30% less power. Even here in the front range power is decreased measurably.

 

[DC runner]

I have used that app for a long time. It's up isn't right, ever. So just ignore it and move on.

 

[MarkinWMich]

The Toyota engines used in the 4th gen 4Runners, in stock form, are not very "forced induction friendly", especially the V6 and its heat sensitive head gaskets. Bolt on performance parts make their power on the top end. Therefore, are not a good choice on the street. Gearing, however, will bring up your low end, off idle performance.

A good performance tune up with spark plugs, synthetic fluids, etc. will be a good start, though. A high mileage engine will often benefit from moving up to a 10W or 15W synthetic...and/or using a product like Lucas Oil Stabilizer to provide better sealing, reduce leaks, increase oil pressure, and reduce cold start wear.

 

[leftyguns21]

A good performance tune up with spark plugs, synthetic fluids, etc. will be a good start, though. A high mileage engine will often benefit from moving up to a 10W or 15W synthetic...and/or using a product like Lucas Oil Stabilizer to provide better sealing, reduce leaks, increase oil pressure, and reduce cold start wear.

is high mileage 100k+ ? I've been changing my oil since day 1 with M1 0w-30 synthetic (walmart doesn't seem to carry the 5w-10w). im not having any issues with leaks or smoking or noticeable loss of power like the OP but should I consider adding the Lucas Oil Stabilizer on next oil change?

 

[m85476585]

M1 0W30 is good. A lower first number means it flows better on startup, and as long as the second number is 30 they all have about the same performance at operating temperature. If the oil needed stabilizer or some kind of additive, they would add it at the factory. If you feel like you need something different you could use M1 high mileage, but I don't see any need even for that. 100k miles is not that much for one of these.
Mobil 1 5W-30 High Mileage Full Synthetic Motor Oil, 5 qt.: Motor Oil, Transmission Fluid & Car Lubricant : Walmart.com

0W20 is a bit less viscous, so by reducing friction you might get slightly more power. I don't think it would be a measurable or noticeable difference though.

 

[black4vcobra]

I have the torque app too and based on how it calculates power using accelerometers in your phone, it's going to be very inaccurate.

As others have said, even if it was 100% accurate, it will only measure the power that gets put to the ground. In a full time 4WD truck with automatic transmission at least 20% of the engines flywheel horsepower will be lost thru the driveline

 

[bawachhe]

Alright, seems fair that Torque is inaccurate. Whoever thought a phone's accelerometer was standard enough to make hp measurements clearly hasn't had more than one smartphone. /programmer-rant

I have a 2WD version (2runner? I regret not getting 4WD some days) so I shouldn't lose quite as much as the 4WD, but of course I lose some power off the engine toting around all the weight and spinning heavy things.

I just also know for a fact that cars lose their hp over time, simply with use, and I was hoping to get a few back.

According to this dyno test, 200hp at the wheels is about right:
http://www.knfilters.com/dynocharts/77-9029_dyno.pdf

Neat! Nice to see an even distribution across the revs of hp and torque too.

...if you feel that your truck has a lag in throttle response, you could look into cleaning the fuel system...

I feel it has a lag.. but that's just the electronic accelerator, probably. (Not my favorite implementation of a throttle..) But I think cleaning the fuel system sounds like a good plan. I think there's at least two or three common methods for that: what do you recommend? Like I said, I heard water injection handles that too..

replacing the spark plugs,

Should do that, haven't yet for this guy...haha..

the air filter,

like check your air filter

That one's straightforward, I'll check it out.

removing the HCF filter which chokes the hell out of the engine,

remove the HCF,

So the HCF, it's there for a reason right? I'm sure most would disagree with that statement off the bat, but what's the reason? I'm just determining for myself whether or not it's worthwhile to remove/keep.

or perhaps your car is running too rich or lean.

Hmm, it seems to run normally generally so I think it's ok on this front.

clean the MAF sensor and TB,

Mass AirFlow I got, but TB?
I'm guessing the Haynes knows where those are. I'll check it out.

Altitude also makes a difference, which is probably not a problem in Southern California, but it's significant in Colorado. High in the mountains (12,000 feet) a NA engine could have 30% less power. Even here in the front range power is decreased measurably.

This I am aware of. The highest the car has gotten is 8000 but most of the time I drive it around under 1000 so I think that's negligible.

The Toyota engines used in the 4th gen 4Runners, in stock form, are not very "forced induction friendly", especially the V6 and its heat sensitive head gaskets. Bolt on performance parts make their power on the top end. Therefore, are not a good choice on the street.

This is mostly why I'm not keen on charging my engine, although it's the V8.

Gearing, however, will bring up your low end, off idle performance.

Please elaborate? Gearing how?

A good performance tune up with spark plugs, synthetic fluids, etc. will be a good start, though. A high mileage engine will often benefit from moving up to a 10W or 15W synthetic...and/or using a product like Lucas Oil Stabilizer to provide better sealing, reduce leaks, increase oil pressure, and reduce cold start wear.

I have some synthetics in there, mostly engine oil. I haven't really had to replace/top off anything else yet. What else would be worth changing to synthetic other than the oil?
I haven't really seen any leaks yet, so I wouldn't need any kind of stopleak, but I presume oil stabilizer is different, so I'll look around at autozone for it.

P.S. Transmission oil.. I haven't looked in it to see if it's doing the strawberry milkshake thing, nor, I think, has it been flushed/replaced yet. I don't know if it's just the computer being a slow poke when I tell it to switch gears either by changing throttle position or by moving the shifter to another position, but it seems slow to me... but not inconsistent, which I know can be a sign of needing to replace trans fluid.. Thoughts?

And, last, reiteration: nobody's heard anything about potential benefits for water injection (without charging)? Here's a link of the idea.

Thanks for all the tips everyone :]

 

[m85476585]

2wd only has slightly less loss than 4wd. The 2wd gets 1mpg more, which is due to less loss and less weight.

The HCF absorbs unburned fuel that might evaporate out of the intake after you shut the car off. Presumably it gets sucked back into the engine, otherwise it would fill up eventually? It reduces smog and pollution, but it might restrict airflow a bit. If it was properly designed it shouldn't restrict airflow much, but maybe it was an afterthought, so maybe it's not ideal to have it on there. Does anyone know if 4runners in other countries have them, or just the US? I'm leaving mine on for now, until I determine for sure that there's a benefit to taking it off.

TB = throttle body. It can get gummed up, I guess? Some people report gains after cleaning it, but I wonder how much of that is just from resetting the ECU (unplugging the negative battery terminal)?

 

[black4vcobra]

TB=throttle body

Gearing is the ratio of the ring and pinion. a higher numerical gear means it has shorter gear and provides more torque multiplication. Stock your 4Runner has 3.73 gears and you have little need for different gears unless you increase tire size, do a lot of rock crawling or you add a lot of weight to your vehicle

Never heard of water injection for non-super/turbocharged vehicles until now but it seems like it would lose a lot of it's benefits without forced induction

One way to see if your truck is making the power it's supposed to is figure out what it's 1/4 mile trap speed is, basically you'll want to mark off 1320' and see what speed your truck can get up to. After you do that, post it up here and we can let you know if you are down on power or about normal. Stock, a 2005 4WD V8 4Runner did the quarter mile in 15.7 at 88 mph

 

[robtmc]

Also, I've heard about this mystical thing called water injection

Nothing mystical about it. Sure you are on the right forum?

 

[DC runner]

Water injection has been around for a long time,_mainly in aviation, military and short burst racing situations. It isn't really practical for a daily driver. It is too complicated, runs a high risk of damage and unless you are able to constantly monitor and tune your engine, bypassing any and all factory ecm tuning controls, your engine can't actually tell the water is there in a useful manner and would cause worse performance and a high risk of hydrolock.

When used, it is for a very specific purpose. To refuse the temp of the internal components, matched with very specific tuning protocals to adjust the new timing sequence. In aviation situations, where airplane engines use it, they by design are more resilant to it's use.

Consumer gas engines are not what it is meant for. In specific race car applications, with high performance engines, it almost always has a much higher maintenance requirement as well as requiring constant observation.

As for the other stuff. Utterly ignore torque. It isn't remotely accurate. One thing you should consider is that your throttle is fly by wire, it is electronic, and your throttle slowly adapts to pedal to maximize fuel economy. It attempts to know what you want, and can cause you to lose a little off the line gut as it tries to smooth it.

You can, I believe, reset this back to off the line and it should give you some more response.

 

[ebg18t]

When used properly W/I systems are awesome. I run a multi-nozzle system on my track car that injects 60% methyl alcohol & 40% water. This has allowed me to run more timing and keep IATs under control during lapping sessions.

 

[MarkinWMich]

Oil and Gears

Synthetic vs. conventional oils...it depends upon the oil. You have to actually go onto the manufacturers web site and check the specs regarding flow characteristics in relation to temperature. Having said that, you may find that a 5W conventional oil will have similar flow characteristics to a 10W synthetic, not exactly, but often close...primarily because the synthetics typically have a more uniform molecular structure than the conventional oil. So, if you're using a 5W conventional, you may be able to achieve a thicker oil film on your engine parts with the 10W synthetic while still having the flow characteristics of the lighter oil. Again, you may have to do some research on this. For example, I used a 15W Redline oil for a summer road trip because, at temperature, it flowed like a 5W conventional. You can play around with different oils, depending upon your application, if you have the right information.

As far as if/when to move up to a thicker oil, it depends upon engine wear and weather. Newer engines and newer oils are less likely to wear, but eventually you will experience varying degrees of "blowby" in the cylinders, a lowering of compression, and power drop. You may begin to burn a little oil. Seals may wear, distance between parts may widen, seapage of oil from between gaskets, etc....then oil pressure may drop, further exacerbating engine wear. When will this happen...100K, 200K?...who knows, but it will happen over time. When you start noticing those little signs and symptoms, then a thicker oil may help by providing a thicker layer of protection, improving the seal between parts, and improving oil pressure.

When I spoke of "gearing" to improve low-end throttle response and accelleration, I was referring to changing your rear-end ring & pinion to a different ratio. So, for example, if you have a 3.73 gear set, and you want more low-end torque multiplication, then moving up to a 4.10, 4.56, etc. will give you more of that low-rpm power most people will enjoy on the street, trail, and towing. If you have an automatic transmission, it will just run up the gears quicker. The downside is that you will be running a higher rpm on the highway, which can be good or bad depending upon whether or not you're towing or if you are concerned about fuel economy. Interestingly, though, around town, you may see improvement in fuel economy because the torque multiplication may decrease engine load...and therefore fuel consumption...just depends upon your foot.

 

[m85476585]

For example, I used a 15W Redline oil for a summer road trip because, at temperature, it flowed like a 5W conventional. You can play around with different oils, depending upon your application, if you have the right information.
.

That's because the second number indicates how it flows at operating temperature, and the number before the W indicated how it flows when it's cold. Even in the summer the oil is cold when you first start it, compared to the operating temperature.

So you could have 5W30 and 15W30 and 15000W30 and they would all flow roughly the same at operating temperature (though there is a range for each grade, and the oil will fall somewhere in the range). Higher numbers before the W are generally bad because they mean the oil doesn't flow as well when starting.

For example, Mobil 1 0W30 actually has slightly higher viscosity at operating temperature than Mobil 1 10W30 (10.9 vs 10.1). It has a slightly lower viscosity at cold temperatures, but it's still much too thick to provide good protection on startup. (62.9 cSt at 40C, and even higher at colder temperatures.)

If you think your engine needs thicker oil for some reason, use XXW40. Back to the subject of this thread, a slightly thinner oil like 0W20 could give you more power since there is less loss as a result of moving oil around. Mobil 1 claims 0.2 - 2.3% increase in fuel economy, so I would guess you can get that much more power at the high end, assuming the engine can only make a certain amount of power and some of it is lost to oil. The engine won't make more power, but more of it can be used to move you forward if there's less friction.

 

[MarkinWMich]

Thanks for elaborating a little more.

 

[m85476585]

There's a whole lot more info on Bob is the Oil Guy. Motor Oil 101 - Bob is the Oil Guy - Bob is the Oil Guy

 

[MarkinWMich]

There's a whole lot more info on Bob is the Oil Guy. Motor Oil 101 - Bob is the Oil Guy - Bob is the Oil Guy

Great article! The comparative information regarding film thickness and the relationships between oil pressure, oil flow, and lubrication is excellent. Most of what a lot of people think as "common knowledge" is actually quite wrong.

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