Picking up after my email beginning with "It doesn't help..."
[email protected]
Sep 25, 2018, 4:18 PM (8 days ago)
to me, Michael.Ritchie, John.Trexler, Lisa.Ciacci
Hello Chris,
We absolutely warranty a product with proof of purchase and if it is being used on the application it is designed for with the OEM part that it is intended for. If the FJ coil was the same as the 4runner coil than I would assume Toyota would not generate 2 part numbers, let alone them being dramatically different in rate.
The 5100s work with the coil that the vehicle comes with. Even though everything in the front end ie. Axles, arms, rod ends etc. share the same part numbers it does not mean the vehicles share the same suspension geometry. We agree that using the FJ coil clearly generates ride height just putting it in the spring in. this is why a lot of 4th and 5th generation 4runner guys use it. Well the reason it lifts it is due to increased rate and overall length. This is why the shocks and springs do not share the same part number although everything else does between the FJ and 4runners.
Using the 5100 series on an FJ with the stock FJ spring generates the ride height we state in our instructions while using the same shock on the 4runner generates the height we describe in the instructions, now swapping the springs from the FJ will over lift the 4runner causing additional load where the shock broke (due to increased length/rate). If you choose to put the 4runner coil on the FJ it obviously would not generate the ride height we describe in the FJ instructions (due to length/rate) it would sit far lower than described.
It is similar to mixing a 5100 series with an Old Man Emu coil, the spring works on both fine and will lift the vehicle in different increments. Please see the below links off Old Man Emu’s website.
You can see how the same coil generates different lift totals. The FJ is 2.5-3” were the 4runner is 3” . If they are the same like they theoretically should be there would be no variance in the lift heights they would both be 3” over stock. The FJ will not generate as much height that’s why Toyota uses a different front/rear coil on the FJ than they do the 4runner.
We respect you opinion and theory that they should be same and using them as stock replacements should do no harm however mixing in a pre-load adjustable shock will cause an issue.
I hope this helps understand.
We cannot stop you from reaching out to forums to give your opinion but would hope you share the info we have provided to give us a fair shake.
From Me to Jr.:
The information you supplied is not relevant as my 4Runner is a 2003 4th Gen; the chart is for 2010+, which I believe use different bottom mount diameter/bushings. Also, the part numbers are significantly different with no description to indicate that the two kits use the same struts or springs; or whether those struts are even Bilstein.
So you don't warrant your aftermarket shocks if they're used with "aftermarket" or different springs? As you mentioned, swapping FJ springs into 4th/5th gen applications is widely used and accepted. They improve ride quality and reduce brake dive. Wouldn't it be nice for you and your company to send a customer a new set when your product fails? The lifetime warranty was part of my decision making when I upgraded to your shocks. The guy that helped me at AutoZone was even confident that I would have no trouble getting you to replace them. I was optimistic until I reviewed your policy on your website and leading into our conversation.
Jr. to me:
[email protected]
Sep 26, 2018, 9:19 AM (7 days ago)
to me, Michael.Ritchie, John.Trexler, Lisa.Ciacci
Hi Chris,
I have supplied you with all of the technical information regarding why we believe the shocks failed. The addition of non-chassis specific springs is the reason for the warranty denial. The Bilstein Limited Lifetime Warranty only covers manufactures defects and material workmanship. It clearly states in our online warranty page that modified use voids the warranty. Had the OEM springs been used for this application and failed, we would have been happy to move forward with a warranty claim. I have provided a link to our online warranty statement for your review.
https://www.bilstein.com/us/en/technology-and-knowledge/warranty/
WARRANTY RESTRICTIONS
The limited warranties set forth above do not cover normal wear and tear and are non-transferable. The following are warranty exclusions:
· Original equipment shock absorbers (vehicle manufacturer warranty)
· Improper installation
· Racing, driving competition or off-road use
· Modified use on BILSTEIN recommended vehicles
· Commercial vehicles
· Bent or broken Rods showing abuse or abnormal wear
Surface finish, boot or mounting hardware such as, but not limited to, rubber bushings, as well as labor charges are not covered by any of the foregoing limited warranties. BILSTEIN’s liability for a defective shock absorber is limited to replacement of shock with a new or reconditioned BILSTEIN shock absorber. Repair or replacement as provided by this warranty is customer’s sole and exclusive remedy in the event of a product failure. Manufacturer shall not be liable for any incidental, consequential or other damages resulting from the disassembly, handling, installation, service, repair or use of this product. Some States do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitation may not apply to you. This warranty gives you specific legal rights, and you may also have other rights which vary from State to State.
Note: Other exclusions may or may not apply in certain states or rare circumstances.
Kind Regards,
Junior Africa
From me to Jr.:
I've posted our ongoing conversation on T4R.org, to give you your "fair shake". Here's the feedback from your customer/potential customer's so far. Granted, I still need to post your last two responses, I do not feel those will improve the feedback.
"Bummer! Glad you’re ok. So is bilstein going to replace under warranty or are they denying due to the FJ springs? Anybody care to look up the 5100 application fine print? Theoretically using an FJ sprIng which is barely longer than a V8 spring and barely higher in spring rate at the 1.75” mark should result in less stress on the shock than say... an OME 885 due to the properties of cool spring compression and rate. So they should cover you, and them saying you were using it in an incorrect application is bull."
"Yikes. Good you made it out ok. Can't imagine that driving out like that was good to the other suspension components down there. Not the first time I've read about Bilstein denying warranty, making me think about staying away from them this time even though I like the ride of the 5100's."
"Isn't the FJ 5100 the same part number? But yeah they have been known to deny warranty if you are even off pavement once. Time to upgrade to a more premium coilover!
You are correct! OP Give bilstein a call and tell them this. The part for 1st gen FJ and 4th gen 4runner are both 24-239370. Bilsteins own website says this. It also lists that this part number for the FJ is “ride height adjustable” meaning using this shock with the FJ coils and them set at 1.75” is no problem (according to their own literature).
give Em hell! Also thanks for posting this, Bilsteins response is certainly making me consider taking my money to OME or Dobinsons. I’ve had great customer service with them."
"Tell them dobinsons makes a much beefier shock and they should be ashamed of such a failure"
"Yup total bull. He didn’t address that you used the same part number with a stock spring that bilstein themselves say will work. He also said their 5100s come with top hats, which they don’t. His explanation has no basis in reality, as you’ve already said. Get a supervisor, not this clown."
"I ran 5100's for about 90k miles with FJ springs at the 3rd notch and I beat on it pretty good, never had a failure. Currently, I'm running the 6112's with 700# King springs and I'm still beating on it with a heavy steel bumper and winch."
"That's crazy. Definitely BS that Bilstein won't cover it. I would go with either Icon, King or OME this time."
"Wow, I’ll definitely be following this for the outcome! I was considering a set of these for the front of mine next spring. May have to rethink that..."
"I had 5100's on the heaviest moogs and didn't have a problem. "
"I can’t believe that for the cost of replacement shocks (probably less than $100 for their costs), they’d risk losing a customer for life, AND losing a ton more potential business in the future based on the negative reviews on public enthusiast sites. Makes no sense at all, and makes their “lifetime warranty” claim completely false and misleading."
"Exactly! I’d be surprised if it’s even close to $100 on their end, seeing as how others can put together the raw material for struts and sell them for $35 each, including profit margins for the manufacturer and retailer. These would be coming directly from the factory, and it’s not like 5100s are new. Their RND and tooling are well paid off by now. Poor business planning and management, if it were my business I’d fire the idiot emailing from customer service and send a free pair of struts for the trouble.
"I’m certainly going to OME or Dobinsons next to around. I’m not terribly happy with the ride of my 5100s anyway."
In addition to the above comments, I wanted to provide feedback about your responses. In most cases, you did not respond clearly or at all to the questions that I asked. There was never any consideration conveyed that it may have been a faulty strut; just that it was my fault for running springs that are listed as an approved application on your site. I worked as a customer relations manager for several years, and this has been an atrocious example of how to treat customers. As mentioned in the comments above, this has likely already cost you several multiples of what it would have cost had you just honored your "lifetime warranty". I'll post all of your responses, as you've requested, to the forums. Your "fair shake" seems to only be adding to the opinion that Bilstein does not stand behind their products or their warranty.
