Can I install a limited slip diff and still keep my e-locker?

[phx_4Runner]

Maybe a completely stupid question

I have a 96 4Runner with the factory e-locker. The locker works great, the 1-2 times a year I use it. However, there are times on the road (especially in rain) where I have fishtailed going around a corner. Now, I'm not going fast or driving recklessly, I think the issue is just wet roads with an open diff and no traction control.

So now I'm considering either installing something like an Eaton Trutrac, which would be amazing if I could somehow install it while keeping my locker. If not, I'll have to forgo the locker because I simply don't need/use it much.

What options do I have?


Edit: I have 4.30 gears

 

[alumarine]

I can't answer your question but if you're fishtailing with an open diff then it will be worse with a limited slip.

 

[phx_4Runner]

I can't answer your question but if you're fishtailing with an open diff then it will be worse with a limited slip.

How so? I only fishtail in heavy rain, why wouldn't an LSD send traction to the other wheel and prevent the fishtail?

 

[JZiggy]

How so? I only fishtail in heavy rain, why wouldn't an LSD send traction to the other wheel and prevent the fishtail?

I can say with confidence that you will only be able to have one or the other in a given differential.

A limited slip is more generally useful than an e locker though it has limitations. For rain and slippery situations it is quite helpful.

If your problem is losing traction while accelerating in wet weather then the limited slip will help.

 

[Pyral]

Having an LSD will help in situations like you described, but I don't think it should be the first thing you try. Plenty of people get along fine with open differentials in wet climates, having good driving habits in wet whether will get you further.

If your apply heavy throttle suddenly (especially around a turn or up a snowy hill) your more likely to fishtail. Its easy to want to accelerate quickly out of a turn, which has been the cause of 60% of my fishtailing experiences.

I doubt your running crappy tires, but I will mention for the sake of being thorough that the tires have a larger impact on wet driving then your differentials do.

I would consider changing other things before I added an LSD but that is my 2 cents. If your doing all this and your still fishtailing then get an LSD because it will definitely help.

As for the original question of if you can have both I have read on a Tacoma thread that you have to choose between a locking diff or a limited slip diff. So you can't have it both ways unfortunately.

 

[St Runner]

I have a limited slip in my 2001 out of an LX. It definitely helps with tire spinning on wet corners. However if you push it hard enough to lose traction on both tires you will truly understand the definition of fishtailing. My suggestion is to keep the set up you have now and put on a really good set of wet rated tires. Also if conditions are really bad using 4wd is an option

 

[alumarine]

How so? I only fishtail in heavy rain, why wouldn't an LSD send traction to the other wheel and prevent the fishtail?

With an open diff only one wheel spins which reduces traction on that wheel but the non spinning wheel will still have traction and that friction will resist going
sideways. (not the best explanation but that's all I got this morning)

With an LSD if you get both wheels spinning then neither will have traction.
As St Runner said if you get both wheels spinning around a slippery corner it gets exciting quick.
Especially with a shorter wheelbase like these trucks have.

Is your truck actually kicking out sideways on the corners or is it just a wheel spinning?

 

[JohnMc]

/\ /\ /\ Seconding what he said. A li9mited slip will allow you to put a little more power down, but generally speaking only if you're still in the corner, or if the road is slanted, unweighting the inside/uphill tire a bit. Otherwise, both tires will have roughly similar levels of traction, and the LSD won't really do all that much.

And with an open diff, if you do mash the pedal down too much and lose traction, almost always one tire will spin, and the other will maintain traction, and that will keep directional control. With an LSD, unless the traction is WAY different between both side, if you add to much skinny pedal both tires will spin, and the rear of the car is free to move side to side with little control. If you think it fishtails with an open diff, it's really going to be wild with an LSD.

I did a gray wire mod on my e-locker, which lets you engage it in all modes, including 2HI. Which makes it pretty entertaining on wet streets. The 5VZ doesn't have enough HP to do it on dry pavement. But yeah, lock the diff, go around a damp corner, throttle it hard, and get ready for some oversteer. The heft and long wheelbase make it fairly controllable. Less likely to do a snap recovery.

And to concur on the 'can't have both' answers above - it's one or the other. The part of the diff that does the e-locking is the same part that is replaced with the LSD. On the e-lockers there is a splined sleeve that slides in from the left side and locks one of the spider gears (which in turn, locks the other). In an LSD (well, there are different types) the spider gears have clutch packs that only let them move relative to each other with a certain (ahem - LIMITED) amount of force.

You certainly could make a diff that does both, the designs aren't really mutually exclusive. But AFAIK nobody has ever bothered, so they don't exist.

 

[T4topher]

1: you can’t have an elocker and a LSD.
2: selectable lockers>LSD
3: if your fishtailing with an open diff you will 100% fishtail wayyyy more with an LSD.. Drifters use LSD’s and welded diffs so that they slide better/easier when drifting..
4: if you have a 4runner with the option to run an open transfercase that’s the best option for driving in heavy rain.
5: if you look up videos of how a diff works you will see if you don’t want the tires to lock up they have to spin at different rates while going around a corner. An open transfercase will allow tires to spin at different rates while also putting power to more than one tire.

 

[gamefreakgc]

With an LSD if you get both wheels spinning then neither will have traction.
As St Runner said if you get both wheels spinning around a slippery corner it gets exciting quick.
Especially with a shorter wheelbase like these trucks have.

I have an LSD in my 4Runner, I can confirm this. Loss of traction in rain before an LSD was more often but less severe. Now it happens less but when it does I start spinning donuts in the middle of traffic. Thankfully I've never hit anyone but when the back end breaks loose in the rain there's no stopping it, even with no throttle input since both tires have no traction. I just start drifting and spinning until the vehicle comes to a stop.

My next set of tires will have better wet traction for on-road driving. Something like the Michelin or Continental TerrainContact.

 

[phattyduck]

How so? I only fishtail in heavy rain, why wouldn't an LSD send traction to the other wheel and prevent the fishtail?

As others have said, that's not at all how it works... Less likely to spin one tire, but much more likely to actually fishtail (oversteer).

You will get better acceleration, especially in a straight line - but having the wheels spin together will make rain (really, more of an issue with snow) way more 'exciting'. Been there, done that with AWD cars... (fun if you know what you are doing, but you have to be very careful)

-Charlie

 

[spartacus]

Driving in wet or slick conditions specially in turns boils down to experience. Fsh tailing in corners when wet or slick can be controlled to a great extend with steering input and throttle control i.e with decent tires.

 

[RandyBobandy]

In an open diff the wheel that isn’t spinning acts like an anchor to reduce the fish tailing, if you’re losing traction to the point of fishtailing in the rain you need to either drive more carefully or get better tires.

I drive in heavy rain regularly and never fishtail, and that includes many miles of daily driving with a lunchbox locker.

 

[HiLife]

No amount of traction aids short of a rain specific tire will help you if you're over steering the truck in corners.
Slowing down is way cheaper than a Limited Slip Diff.

 

[pavelvoivoda]

Maybe a completely stupid question

I have a 96 4Runner with the factory e-locker. The locker works great, the 1-2 times a year I use it. However, there are times on the road (especially in rain) where I have fishtailed going around a corner. Now, I'm not going fast or driving recklessly, I think the issue is just wet roads with an open diff and no traction control.

So now I'm considering either installing something like an Eaton Trutrac, which would be amazing if I could somehow install it while keeping my locker. If not, I'll have to forgo the locker because I simply don't need/use it much.

What options do I have?


Edit: I have 4.30 gears

To answer your question, you can add an LSD to a eLocker, yes, but can you do it with OEM parts? Maybe, maybe not. You'd have to disassemble an LSD and an Elocker and see if the LSD satellite cassette fits in the elocker mechanism. Toyota doesn't put them together in the rear diff, as they are designed to work differently for different situations.
Toyota does fit them both into the transfers of some Land Cruiser tho as there they do work good in combination.

General purpose of the elocker is for where you want slow throttle control at very slow speeds of the engine and of the car. You can drag race too with it, but the LSD would be better, as it works at fast throttle acceleration. It only locks when you give it gas fast, therefore it could help you in mud where some speed is needed, but it doesn't help much when crawling as it can't lock at that low speed.

Even at the popular concept that when you raise rear wheels and turn one, and the other spins in the same direction on an LSD, doesn't mean you have managed to lock (or tighten is a more accurate term) the LSD using only power of your hands. Usually the other wheel spins because of the stiffness and drag created by the oil that holds the spider wheels from loosening up.

I recommend better tires in combo with an AWD transfer case (the one mentioned with a center diff lock in the unlock position to significantly reduce fishtailing.

It's expected tho. Fishtailing in the 4Runner is normal and fun when only in 2WD. But be aware of your surroundings when taking a turn in a two lane turn corners.

 

[TW44LR]

Seems like your best options as other people have said is driving habits, tires & awd transfer case swap.


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[Brian.]

Lets tackle the loose nut behind the wheel aspect (meant in fun jest). This stuff is all common sense to me, but I learned it somewhere....

The first thing to know and understand is that you have a limited supply of traction. You can use it for changing speed (gas or brakes) or turning. Outside environments change that supply up and down, obviously you have less on ice than on warm and dry pavement. If you're Turning, lay off the gas (or brakes), do only 1 input at a time and do that input Smoothly (don't romp on a pedal or jerk the wheel).

You're in Phoenix by your user name and location? Okay, so the next thing to tackle is that arid locations tend to suffer from more road buildup of dripped fluids. Stops and intersections leading from those stops are the worst. Add in a little rain and those places become Extremely slick until there's enough rain to wash it away. If you're slipping in Those locations, then it's simply not enough traction (see above). This happens everywhere, but down here in Georgia where it rains a good bit there just isn't as much buildup before it's all washed away.

Everything I know about traction comes from riding motorcycles where you have worse consequences from losing traction. The best training aide I found was riding in the dirt, where it was easier to find the limits of traction without the terrible downsides. For you, maybe find out if there's a race track or drift club that has a skid pad where you can do the same.

Hands down, the BEST money I have Ever spent has been on rider/driver training (have some AutoX and did a few trackdays in my Porshce 944 before) ~ I can't recommend taking driver training classes enough. I don't care who you are, what you drive orr what you Think you know, you will learn something (so long as you don't go in with the attitude that you couldn't possibly learn anything new).


Beyond that, tires. Tires worn near the end of their life (most have a Tread Wear Indicator/TWI that are a visual guide) perform worse. Check the DOT date code if you don't know their age. Over 5 years and they're past their prime, over 10 and they're a hazard. Some tires absolutely suck in the rain too (Yoko Geolanders were like that for me). You can drive around these issues a bit by simply slowing down.

 

[gamefreakgc]

Lets tackle the loose nut behind the wheel aspect (meant in fun jest). This stuff is all common sense to me, but I learned it somewhere....

The first thing to know and understand is that you have a limited supply of traction. You can use it for changing speed (gas or brakes) or turning. Outside environments change that supply up and down, obviously you have less on ice than on warm and dry pavement. If you're Turning, lay off the gas (or brakes), do only 1 input at a time and do that input Smoothly (don't romp on a pedal or jerk the wheel).

You're in Phoenix by your user name and location? Okay, so the next thing to tackle is that arid locations tend to suffer from more road buildup of dripped fluids. Stops and intersections leading from those stops are the worst. Add in a little rain and those places become Extremely slick until there's enough rain to wash it away. If you're slipping in Those locations, then it's simply not enough traction (see above). This happens everywhere, but down here in Georgia where it rains a good bit there just isn't as much buildup before it's all washed away.

Everything I know about traction comes from riding motorcycles where you have worse consequences from losing traction. The best training aide I found was riding in the dirt, where it was easier to find the limits of traction without the terrible downsides. For you, maybe find out if there's a race track or drift club that has a skid pad where you can do the same.

Hands down, the BEST money I have Ever spent has been on rider/driver training (have some AutoX and did a few trackdays in my Porshce 944 before) ~ I can't recommend taking driver training classes enough. I don't care who you are, what you drive orr what you Think you know, you will learn something (so long as you don't go in with the attitude that you couldn't possibly learn anything new).


Beyond that, tires. Tires worn near the end of their life (most have a Tread Wear Indicator/TWI that are a visual guide) perform worse. Check the DOT date code if you don't know their age. Over 5 years and they're past their prime, over 10 and they're a hazard. Some tires absolutely suck in the rain too (Yoko Geolanders were like that for me). You can drive around these issues a bit by simply slowing down.

I have really been wanting to take some driving lessons as I'm quite poor in driving cars with oversteer, like our 4Runners have. It would definitely help in me being more confident on the road. As it is right now, I feel at times if I press the accelerator I'm loosing a wild beast that will rampage out of control. What kind of classes did you take, and what was the price?

I can also confirm that road build-up is a serious issue here in CA too. We go 6 months between the wet season with not a single drop of rain. Add in over 35 million vehicles on the road and it's a mess come October/November when the storms begin. Very treacherous and was the cause of 2 of my donut episodes. One was on a road that went from asphalt to brick to asphalt and traction was a bit of a problem.

 

[Brian.]

I have really been wanting to take some driving lessons as I'm quite poor in driving cars with oversteer, like our 4Runners have. It would definitely help in me being more confident on the road. As it is right now, I feel at times if I press the accelerator I'm loosing a wild beast that will rampage out of control. What kind of classes did you take, and what was the price?

Lol, the 4runner? A wild beast that will rampage out of control? Are we talking about the same vehicle? Mine is more like a geriatric gerbil, it'll eventually get moving.

As for the courses I've taken, they were all in association with Summit Point raceway in WV. For a number of years I was living on pennies but interested in track racing so I got involved with corner-working (front row seats, free admission, usually free food and the drivers/riders were pretty free with their drink in the evenings). I'd do any event I was free for, and a number of those were track days with teaching where our "pay" was some training at the end of the day.

Wait, then I had the Porsche 944 in Atlanta, and did a couple track days at Road Atlanta with the Porsche Club. AutoX was mostly with friends (I'm a mechanic, so more trading my time/skills for them to loan me a car for some runs and a little training).

Finding someone local is simply doing some digging. Find a racetrack, look for their calendar of events and then start contacting those who are doing things and find out what they do. Ask if they know of anyone else who might have a skidpad or do wet road driver training. Prices will be different now than when I did things, and be different east coast vs west... There may even be some drivers (racers) out there who offer training one on one that you can find through the various classifieds (might need to do a "looking for" ad to find them).

For those who want to drive in the snow, the only school I know of in this country is based out of Steamboat Springs, in CO.

 

[JohnMc]

Even with the locker engaged, I really have to coax it into a slide on wet roads. It's certainly not a situation where I'm living in fear of the gas pedal on rainy days. Sometimes, it has a little trouble going, one wheel will spin, but it's pretty much never fishtailing.

I'd be taking a critical look at your tires. They may be aged out, even if they have plenty of tread left. Once the rubber gets old it gets harder, and loses a significant amount of grip. This is most evident in the wet, where they turn into ice skates. What's the date code on them? How does the rubber feel?