Car dealer false advertising help?

[BlackWorksInc]

Functionally is a T4R in 4H without the center locked any different than AWD?

Yes and no. The Limiteds, like all the 4th Gen 4Runners have a T3 Torsen Center Differential. The center differential reduces the binding effect you get in 4WD and helps distribute the power balance better when one axle needs it without having to resort to locking the center diff. This is more for on-road manners more than anything else. They dropped the Torsen T3 being standard in all the transfer cases when they went to the 5th gens, it used to be in the 4th gens because they had a T3 Torsen it made driving the Part-Time 4WD units in 4Hi essentially the same as the All-Time 4WD V8's because the Torsen managed the quirks of driving in 4WD on road rather well.

That being said, you can drive these vehicles in 4Hi regularly in adverse conditions (i.e. snowy/very wet conditions) because the natural slippage of the road conditions doesn't strain it as much as driving on dry, grippy pavement (the same reason why they don't recommend using CDL on dry pavement, but it can be used in loose/slippery surfaces without too much concern). We have people regularly driving in 4Hi in the Tacoma, Tundra, and 4Runner when it snows out here. But you will notice some binding when you near full lock in these units, I normally throw the customer's vehicle in 2WD when I pull it into the shop because of the binding making turning onto the vehicle hoist annoying.

While AWD and 4WD essentially do the same thing (i.e. power 4-wheels), the main distinction is that usually that in a 4WD you have additional gearing in your transfercase where as most AWD's transfer case gearing is negligible on the final drive ratio and 4WD is typically un-biased.

The transmissions are one of the few things that are really different between SR5, Trail, and Limited.

SR5 and Trail are more similar, but Trail has a real stick for 4H-4L and SR5 is shift-by-wire (with a knob). Limited is much different.

ETA, limiteds have much more luxurious interior, and more electronics and creature comforts. One big difference (at least for the 2016s I looked at) is the regular radio key vs the new generation smart key (where you don't need to push a button, just get near your car to unlock, and key stays in your pocket with pushbutton start).

If you want more info, you should cross-post this on AR15.com GD, I usually only come over here if I want info on dissipator gas systems and chili without beans.:banana:

The "real stick" means nothing beyond the lack of one actuator. Your system is still computer controlled and any failure in the sensors, ADD actuator in the front, and/or ABS system (starting to see this on the newer vehicles) will default the system just as inoperable as the "Shift by Wire" set-up. The only fully manual 4WD system Toyota has made for a Toyota product in the US in the last 20~30 some odd years was the 6spd manual FJ Cruiser with Full-Time 4WD and a manual case, You could consider the GX470 a close second; but it does have an actuator for the CDL Function.

 

[Engineer]

The transmissions are one of the few things that are really different between SR5, Trail, and Limited.

SR5 and Trail are more similar, but Trail has a real stick for 4H-4L and SR5 is shift-by-wire (with a knob). Limited is much different.

ETA, limiteds have much more luxurious interior, and more electronics and creature comforts. One big difference (at least for the 2016s I looked at) is the regular radio key vs the new generation smart key (where you don't need to push a button, just get near your car to unlock, and key stays in your pocket with pushbutton start).

If you want more info, you should cross-post this on AR15.com GD, I usually only come over here if I want info on dissipator gas systems and chili without beans.:banana:

Just to clarify, the transmission in all trims is identical, its a 5speed A750F I believe. The transfer cases are different but they are from the same family with the only main differences being the way the unit is actuated (lever vs dial) and then the limiteds is a bit longer due to the center differential it has. None are superior to the others in terms of strength or durability.

VF2A - Part Time Lever Actuated Case (Trail/TRD Pro all years, SR5 Pre 2012(?))
VF2BM - Part Time Dial Actuated Case (SR5)
VF4BM - AWD Dial Actuated Case (Limited 4Runner)
VF4B - AWD Lever Actuated Case (6sp FJ)

 

[Summit]

That being said, you can drive these vehicles in 4Hi regularly in adverse conditions (i.e. snowy/very wet conditions) because the natural slippage of the road conditions doesn't strain it as much as driving on dry, grippy pavement (the same reason why they don't recommend using CDL on dry pavement, but it can be used in loose/slippery surfaces without too much concern). We have people regularly driving in 4Hi in the Tacoma, Tundra, and 4Runner when it snows out here. But you will notice some binding when you near full lock in these units, I normally throw the customer's vehicle in 2WD when I pull it into the shop because of the binding making turning onto the vehicle hoist annoying.

So the way I've been using it in the 4th gen is fine in a 5th gen (rain or snow = 4H)? And there should be little performance difference? No increased risk of skid initiation in a turn? Because if no significant difference, I'd rather not have to put in even more time, hassle, and money to trade in for a LTD at this point despite its niceties...

 

[Knight-Errant]

caveat emptor

 

[Vinsil]

You made a bad (in you opinion) purchase.


Suck it up butter cup!

It's not like you got hammered like some have been scammed. Dealer are ignorant of the used vehicles they sell. Money is the end game for them....

 

[BlackWorksInc]

So the way I've been using it in the 4th gen is fine in a 5th gen (rain or snow = 4H)? And there should be little performance difference? No increased risk of skid initiation in a turn? Because if no significant difference, I'd rather not have to put in even more time, hassle, and money to trade in for a LTD at this point despite its niceties...

Performance wise you shouldn't see too much difference between the 4th gen and 5th gen non-Limited operation in conditions warranting 4WD (i.e. snow, rain, mucky stuff, ect.)

Without the T3 Torsen to mitigate some of the inherent difference in axle speeds front to rear when you make a turn (I believe in the VF4BM cases with the T3 Torsen it can manage something like 20~25% slippage between front and rear axle, assuming I am remembering correctly) you get binding in the front drivetrain. In 4Hi it's really only noticeable when you need to make a fairly tight turn (think parking lot vs. making a right at a stop lamp), it's a bit more noticeable in 4Lo as the gearing reduction in the transfer case is far more significant.

So on higher traction surfaces such as dry pavement the binding will be far more noticeable, but on surfaces where the tires can slip a bit the binding is a bit reduced. All that being said, in the end though the 4WD from a performance standpoint, binding aside, will function similarly. I can't honestly tell if there's any real difference in skid initiation between the non- Torsen transfer case vehicles and my 4th gen, I would imagine that there isn't a difference beyond the front axle binding at tight turns. The main difference here is that while in the 4th gen and the Limited you can theoretically just leave it in 4Hi and not worry about it (as it will act similarly to an AWD vehicle), you do need to be conscious and switch back to 2WD when you don't need 4Hi to eliminate the binding and reduce wear & tear on the drivetrain in the non-VF4BM unit.

So if the inconvenience of having to switch between 4WD & 2WD when you don't need it is a deciding factor, then I'd look at a Limited (I'll be honest I am a bit spoiled with my 4th gen V8 I enjoy having All-Time 4WD and not having to deal with switching it back and forth). But honestly I would take the 4Runner to a parking lot (preferably with some snow on it) and just play with the 4WD system and see what we're talking about. You'll notice the binding and have a better judge if it's worth living with or not; you may find that while a bit different than your 4th gen, it's perfectly fine for you.

 

[Vinsil]

In the end...the binding won't hurt anything at all. It will feel like it is breaking but it's not. :tape2:

 

[Summit]

What we want is the best performance in the snow of any vehicle out there with zero compromise in emergency maneuvering that let us be the fastest/safest possible in snow/packed snow conditions that are prevalent 6mo of the year.

I felt like 4th gen T4R and the 11 Outback both delivered exactly that when outfitted with narrow DMV1s.

If 4H binding is a feel thing and not a performance compromise except in parking lots, then no problem. I guess I can simulate by driving the 07 T4R around with the center locked?

 

[bamma]

What we want is the best performance in the snow of any vehicle out there with zero compromise in emergency maneuvering that let us be the fastest/safest possible in snow/packed snow conditions that are prevalent 6mo of the year.

I felt like 4th gen T4R and the 11 Outback both delivered exactly that when outfitted with narrow DMV1s.

If 4H binding is a feel thing and not a performance compromise except in parking lots, then no problem. I guess I can simulate by driving the 07 T4R around with the center locked?

The real difference IMO, is when the roads are a bit wet, or mostly dry with some slick patches, that otherwise would make 4wd bind, which can ruin/stress a pt 4wd system when turning. Turning on dry pavement stresses the driveline. I think the manual even says this iirc.

With a limited, you get that extra traction in all conditions. I liked the trail/kdss personally, but ultimately the limited transfer case was the feature I liked the most. Silly toy stopped offering multi mode.

 

[Runn4est]

Does the sales ppwk indicate that they sold you a limited? Also, for everyone saying the looks should be obvious, think about the LE owners that swap out the trim. Maybe a dealer just wanted to sell as is (not in this case, just saying).

 

[Engineer]

What we want is the best performance in the snow of any vehicle out there with zero compromise in emergency maneuvering that let us be the fastest/safest possible in snow/packed snow conditions that are prevalent 6mo of the year.

I felt like 4th gen T4R and the 11 Outback both delivered exactly that when outfitted with narrow DMV1s.

If 4H binding is a feel thing and not a performance compromise except in parking lots, then no problem. I guess I can simulate by driving the 07 T4R around with the center locked?

Buy a set of dedicated snow tires

 

[SirBarton]

Return it asap.

You made a bad purchase, but they also listed the car in the wrong trim level - the picture is clearly an SR5.

You are both culpable, but the one thing that won't change is that you will always be frustrated that you didn't buy what you thought you were buying. Why compromise? If the dealer listed it as a Limited, I think you have some recourse - even if your wife inspected the vehicle and signed for it.

If you want the full time 4 wheel and push button ignition, you can only get that on a Limited. There are TONS of available limiteds both new and gently used in your area. Why not get what you really want?

Don't settle for a car that you aren't 100% happy with even if, as others say, it's a great car. It is, but it's clearly not exactly what you want.

 

[1engineer]

Return it asap.

You made a bad purchase, but they also listed the car in the wrong trim level - the picture is clearly an SR5.

You are both culpable, but the one thing that won't change is that you will always be frustrated that you didn't buy what you thought you were buying. Why compromise? If the dealer listed it as a Limited, I think you have some recourse - even if your wife inspected the vehicle and signed for it.

If you want the full time 4 wheel and push button ignition, you can only get that on a Limited. There are TONS of available limiteds both new and gently used in your area. Why not get what you really want?

Don't settle for a car that you aren't 100% happy with even if, as others say, it's a great car. It is, but it's clearly not exactly what you want.

Finally.

 

[Summit]

What did the window sticker say?

Limited

Does the sales ppwk indicate that they sold you a limited? Also, for everyone saying the looks should be obvious, think about the LE owners that swap out the trim.

And swap rims..

Ppwk doesn't indicate trim. It was left blank.

Return it asap.

I'm calling them today, but they are 800 miles away.

Buy a set of dedicated snow tires

Always have, always will

 

[Yukon4Runner]

There's the key...they left the trim blank on the paperwork and your wife did not catch it.

The dealer is a scumbag but they are legally clear.

p.s. If there was no wife actually involved in the sale, don't be ashamed. Many many people have posted emberassing stories where a "wife" was involved.

 

[BilboSchwaggins]

The "real stick" means nothing beyond the lack of one actuator. Your system is still computer controlled and any failure in the sensors, ADD actuator in the front, and/or ABS system (starting to see this on the newer vehicles) will default the system just as inoperable as the "Shift by Wire" set-up. The only fully manual 4WD system Toyota has made for a Toyota product in the US in the last 20~30 some odd years was the 6spd manual FJ Cruiser with Full-Time 4WD and a manual case, You could consider the GX470 a close second; but it does have an actuator for the CDL Function.

Well, I am glad to have one less actuator, since that very actuator died in my 2005 Jeep GC QuadraTrac II without any notification, and I didn't learn about it until I actually needed 4WD. Further, I guess it died on thousands of Jeeps in the same timeframe, and the part wasn't available for 6 months.

I understand that electronic malfunctions can render electronically controlled parts of the system inoperable, but how can a sensor override something you do with the stick on the transfer case? Just a question, I have no idea.

 

[bamma]

Does the paperwork have a return policy?

 

[Summit]

Does the paperwork have a return policy?

Nothing stated

There's the key...they left the trim blank on the paperwork and your wife did not catch it.

The dealer is a scumbag but they are legally clear.

p.s. If there was no wife actually involved in the sale, don't be ashamed. Many many people have posted emberassing stories where a "wife" was involved.

Not like I didn't also make mistakes. If there wasn't a wife, I wouldn't need two T4Rs

Wife is pretty and kickass:

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Well, I am glad to have one less actuator, since that very actuator died in my 2005 Jeep GC QuadraTrac II without any notification, and I didn't learn about it until I actually needed 4WD. Further, I guess it died on thousands of Jeeps in the same timeframe, and the part wasn't available for 6 months.

I understand that electronic malfunctions can render electronically controlled parts of the system inoperable, but how can a sensor override something you do with the stick on the transfer case? Just a question, I have no idea.

The lever only actuates the case, the ADD (Automatic Disconnecting Differential) actuator on the front axle still needs to be commanded by the 4WD ECU to actually connect the front axle to the transfer case.

On the newer systems (2014 or newer maybe? I haven't quite parsed which models/years started doing it, newer Tundras for sure) if the ABS system has an issue the system will not shift the vehicle into 4WD and the light will just blink. Additionally if the position switches in the case and/or ADD fail (some of them are internal to the actuators on various years and non-servicable) the vehicle will not shift into or out of 4WD because it doesn't know where it is and it doesn't want to damage anything.

So you can shift the case into 4WD and it will feel like it's in 4WD because of the gearing change, but the front axle may not be locked to the transfer case (I've seen this a couple times).

Like I said, Toyota hasn't made a truly manual 4WD set-up in almost 30yrs aside from that one FJ.

 

[e60ral]

caveat emptor

that doesn't apply

you are not required to disclose everything when you sell something, but what you can not do is misrepresent it. The ad and sticker misrepresented the vehicle.

If the dealership doesn't work in good faith to fix the problem, an attorney shouldn't have much difficulty getting this resolved for you.