Catalitic converter lifespan

[thholr]

Wondering if anyone else has had these issues....
I have an 04 4runner that I bought new and now has 120K miles on it . Had the catalitic converter replaced on bank 2 which cost me around $600. one month later my check engine light came on with code P0430 ( insufficient catalist on bank 2 ) . Mechanic says I need the pre-cat assembly for bank 2 which I guess includes the headers. Gonna charge me $800. He advised me to be prepared that bank 1 usually goes shortly after bank 2. At this point if I replace header assembly and both on bank 1 I am at $2200. which is getting close to 40% the value of the car.
Have other people seen this kind of life out of the cats ? Seems kinda insane to me . I am debating trading her in while I can .

 

[Jed]

Hate to say it, but most of the time those codes really mean that you need a new oxygen sensor. I've seen many mechanics misdiagnose the problem as a faulty catalytic converter.

But to answer your question, the catalytic converter should last the life of the vehicle if it wasn't abused by something like an engine misfire for extended periods of time. There are only a few things that will absolutely kill a catalytic converter prematurely, including raw fuel pumping out of the cylinders and into the exhaust system (like during a misfire), improper fuel additives, leaded fuel (hard to find these days), or really long term extended idling of the engine. If your vehicle hasn't be subjected to any of those things, your catalytic converter shouldn't need to be replaced.

 

[wombie]

The cats are a PITA when they go south. The one on my 3rd Gen had to be replaced at about 120k. That said, I wish I'd known about this forum then because I would absolutely have triple checked to see if it was the 02 sensor.
At the time there were a whole load of converters being stolen in our neighborhood. Just our luck they didn't decide to steal ours.

I'm pretty sure I stupidly caused mine to go out by using the Runner very infrequently over a 6 month period and forgetting to put a new tank of gas in it when I eventually did. Urgh. Oh well, live and learn.

 

[thholr]

How can I tell if it is the oxygen sensor ? Arent there multiple ones for each bank ?

 

[Jed]

How can I tell if it is the oxygen sensor ? Arent there multiple ones for each bank ?

There are a couple of ways. If you know someone with a scan tool that has the data stream function, you can watch the voltage readings while the car is running (for each sensor). The upstream sensor should fluctuate steadlily between .1 and .9 Volts. This sensor provides feedback to the ECU to help maintain the properly air/fuel ratio. The downstream sensor is basically there to check the catalytic converter's efficiency. If it is doing the same thing as the upstream sensor, that's one indication that the cat isn't operating properly or the sensor itself is malfunctioning.

BTW, you can also check with a voltmeter, but it is much more difficult.

Most people just buy new sensors and swap them out if they are questionable. They tend to wear as they get older (slower to react) and most people see better fuel economy when they install new ones.

 

[M1911]

At this point if I replace header assembly and both on bank 1 I am at $2200. which is getting close to 40% the value of the car.
Have other people seen this kind of life out of the cats ? Seems kinda insane to me . I am debating trading her in while I can .

I'm lost. Are you suggesting that your 04 is only worth $5500? The prices that I see are north of $10,000.

If you want a new truck, buy a new truck. But your 4Runner is worth spending the money to replace the cat, unless it is a complete wreck.

 

[jimlaw3]

I promise it not the o2 sensor with that code,some poeple like to think there a mechanic.I replace CATS on a daily basis,and O2 sensors too.If you take it to the dealer they will know what to replace,we see the same thing everyday.CATS usually begin to go on Hondas around 80k to 150k miles,its just like everything else it will go bad.Don't get rid of the truck dude it will happen on any model.The 4runner is the best SUV out there in my opinion.:driving:

 

[Jed]

I promise it not the o2 sensor with that code,some poeple like to think there a mechanic.I replace CATS on a daily basis,and O2 sensors too.If you take it to the dealer they will know what to replace,we see the same thing everyday.CATS usually begin to go on Hondas around 80k to 150k miles,its just like everything else it will go bad.Don't get rid of the truck dude it will happen on any model.The 4runner is the best SUV out there in my opinion.:driving:

Yeah, the problem with that is that too many mechanics are just parts swappers. They don't understand how to properly diagnose and repair a problem, so they just start swapping out parts until the problem is fixed. I've seen it a million times where a perfectly good catalytic converter was replaced because of a faulty 02 sensor. In fact, it got so bad at one point that dealerships were required to send back parts that were diagnosed as faulty if they were swapped out while under warranty. Then of course these supposed faulty parts are tested to see if they were really faulty. You should have seen how many times poor mechanics misdiagnosed the true cause of the problem and in turn swapped out perfectly good parts.

 

[Jed]

Forgot to say--- That particular code means that either the cat isn't operating efficiently or the oxygen sensor isn't reading correctly. It's almost always one of those two things. An exhaust system leak can also cause that code to occur.

 

[jimlaw3]

Forgot to say--- That particular code means that either the cat isn't operating efficiently or the oxygen sensor isn't reading correctly. It's almost always one of those two things. An exhaust system leak can also cause that code to occur.

not on the car's I work on buddy.

 

[Jed]

not on the car's I work on buddy.

Oil changes don't count, LOL.

But seriously, if you don't believe me, just look it up. The Internet is your friend. Information can be found at your fingertips.

This is a universal OBDII code, not a manufacturer-specific code. It has the same meaning for every car on the road.

If you want to help the OP out, then go ahead and help. But don't spread misinformation because you'll do nothing to help anybody.

 

[jimlaw3]

Oil changes don't count, LOL.

But seriously, if you don't believe me, just look it up. The Internet is your friend. Information can be found at your fingertips.

This is a universal OBDII code, not a manufacturer-specific code. It has the same meaning for every car on the road.

If you want to help the OP out, then go ahead and help. But don't spread misinformation because you'll do nothing to help anybody.

Hey Jed ,
I have been a tech for 22 years,been a Honda tech for 10.I have been to multiple training schools for Honda and other makes,I also have all my ASE's.I know about everything your saying here,but I can tell you if you have a P0420,P0430 on a Honda it needs a CAT period.I fix cars everyday(the right way)and make my customers very happy.So stop talking to me:roadkill:

 

[Jed]

Hey Jed ,
I have been a tech for 22 years,been a Honda tech for 10.I have been to multiple training schools for Honda and other makes,I also have all my ASE's.I know about everything your saying here,but I can tell you if you have a P0420,P0430 on a Honda it needs a CAT period.I fix cars everyday(the right way)and make my customers very happy.So stop talking to me:roadkill:

ASE? Yeah, me too. I was an ASE Master Technician for the first time in 1995 when I passed all 8 tests.

But if you think those codes can't mean anything other than a faulty cat, you're dead wrong. A bad O2 sensor can also trigger those codes. That's a fact, not an opinion.

 

[jimlaw3]

ASE? Yeah, me too. I was an ASE Master Technician for the first time in 1995 when I passed all 8 tests.

But if you think those codes can't mean anything other than a faulty cat, you're dead wrong. A bad O2 sensor can also trigger those codes. That's a fact, not an opinion.

I never said that,but a bad O2 on a Honda will not cause that code,thats a fact.I think Toyota is the same,thats why the mechanic replaced the CAT.If he replaces the O2 and the code comes back,guess what,just wasted a bunch of money.I see it all the time.His truck needed the CAT.Your dead wrong if you think a CAT will last the lifetime of a car,maybe on older cars this was true but not anymore, unfortonately.Things have change since the 90,s

 

[Jed]

I never said that,but a bad O2 on a Honda will not cause that code,thats a fact.I think Toyota is the same,thats why the mechanic replaced the CAT.If he replaces the O2 and the code comes back,guess what,just wasted a bunch of money.I see it all the time.His truck needed the CAT.Your dead wrong if you think a CAT will last the lifetime of a car,maybe on older cars this was true but not anymore, unfortonately.Things have change since the 90,s

Okay, no sense in continuing the argument. Anyone who wants to do their own research will find the code description as inefficient catalyst with three possible causes: 1-bad cat 2-bad O2 sensor 3- exhaust system leak. This is true for ANY vehicle, including Hondas and Toyotas.

As for the life span of the cat, I've seen original cats last more than 250,000 miles on many Toyota vehicles. If you take care of them, they will normally last the lifetime of the car. There are no moving parts in a cat to wear out and the catalyst itself doesn't wear out either. Cats die mainly from contamination (or they can rust from the outside), which is exactly what happens when people like you ignore bad O2 sensors. A faulty O2 sensor is a good way to kill a cat, so it's no wonder that you think cats don't last the life of the vehicle, considering that you apparently think that O2 sensors can never be faulty. Dude, the more I think about it, the more clueless you are. You should be ashamed of yourself if you're really an ASE Master Tech.

 

[Maz]

Hate to say it, but most of the time those codes really mean that you need a new oxygen sensor. I've seen many mechanics misdiagnose the problem as a faulty catalytic converter.

But to answer your question, the catalytic converter should last the life of the vehicle if it wasn't abused by something like an engine misfire for extended periods of time. There are only a few things that will absolutely kill a catalytic converter prematurely, including raw fuel pumping out of the cylinders and into the exhaust system (like during a misfire), improper fuel additives, leaded fuel (hard to find these days), or really long term extended idling of the engine. If your vehicle hasn't be subjected to any of those things, your catalytic converter shouldn't need to be replaced.

I'm a little concered about the "extended idling of the engine." I have a habit of starting our cars up in the morning while we getting the last things together to go out the door, so they'll be nice and warmed up ready to go. Usually it's while taking out the trash for pickup, cleaning up the bugs off the front bumper...that sort of thing.

However sometimes we get slowed down and the idling goes on while we're searching for glasses...house keys...etc. I know we have a lot of experienced people on this forum, including at least two mechanics in this thread. What would be a conservative definition (conservative meaning the short time version) for extended idling, and can someone amplify on the issue it might create?

Thanks.

 

[bulldogtaxi]

Okay, no sense in continuing the argument. Anyone who wants to do their own research will find the code description as inefficient catalyst with three possible causes: 1-bad cat 2-bad O2 sensor 3- exhaust system leak. This is true for ANY vehicle, including Hondas and Toyotas.

As for the life span of the cat, I've seen original cats last more than 250,000 miles on many Toyota vehicles. If you take care of them, they will normally last the lifetime of the car. There are no moving parts in a cat to wear out and the catalyst itself doesn't wear out either. Cats die mainly from contamination (or they can rust from the outside), which is exactly what happens when people like you ignore bad O2 sensors. A faulty O2 sensor is a good way to kill a cat, so it's no wonder that you think cats don't last the life of the vehicle, considering that you apparently think that O2 sensors can never be faulty. Dude, the more I think about it, the more clueless you are. You should be ashamed of yourself if you're really an ASE Master Tech.

:iagree:Just talked to my buddy at local toyota dealer and thats exactly what he said.

 

[Jed]

I'm a little concered about the "extended idling of the engine." I have a habit of starting our cars up in the morning while we getting the last things together to go out the door, so they'll be nice and warmed up ready to go. Usually it's while taking out the trash for pickup, cleaning up the bugs off the front bumper...that sort of thing.

However sometimes we get slowed down and the idling goes on while we're searching for glasses...house keys...etc. I know we have a lot of experienced people on this forum, including at least two mechanics in this thread. What would be a conservative definition (conservative meaning the short time version) for extended idling, and can someone amplify on the issue it might create?

Thanks.

No worries with short idle times like that. I'm talking about people who idle for looooong periods of time, such as overnight while sleeping inside the vehicle for 8 hours straight. People have been known to do that, believe it or not.

Anyway, the concern with extended idling is primarily a danger of overheating the catalyst. It is possible to overheat the cat with extended idling. You can usually tell if a cat has been overheated because the outside shell is discolored (usually has a gold or brownish tint to it).

Keep in mind that EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) systems do not ever operate at idle. And the whole idea of EGR systems is to keep combustion chamber temps below 2500 degrees. So if you idle your engine for a really long time, it is difficult to avoid high temps in the combustion chamber. And of course that leads to high exhaust temps. And that can lead to overheated (and eventually destroyed) catalytic converters. Now keep in mind that the cat is designed to operate at high temps, and I'm sure they are designed to tolerate high temperature spikes as well. But if they are kept at really high temps for extended periods, they are known to begin breaking down on the inside, eventually causing total failure. That said, my 8-hour estimate could be way off. But I certainly wouldn't idle my engine that long under any circumstances. I honestly don't know at what point damage could occur, but I suspect an hour or two wouldn't do any permanent damage. Again, that part is just my own opinion and I could be wrong.

 

[jimlaw3]

Okay, no sense in continuing the argument. Anyone who wants to do their own research will find the code description as inefficient catalyst with three possible causes: 1-bad cat 2-bad O2 sensor 3- exhaust system leak. This is true for ANY vehicle, including Hondas and Toyotas.

As for the life span of the cat, I've seen original cats last more than 250,000 miles on many Toyota vehicles. If you take care of them, they will normally last the lifetime of the car. There are no moving parts in a cat to wear out and the catalyst itself doesn't wear out either. Cats die mainly from contamination (or they can rust from the outside), which is exactly what happens when people like you ignore bad O2 sensors. A faulty O2 sensor is a good way to kill a cat, so it's no wonder that you think cats don't last the life of the vehicle, considering that you apparently think that O2 sensors can never be faulty. Dude, the more I think about it, the more clueless you are. You should be ashamed of yourself if you're really an ASE Master Tech.

I know when to change a cat vs an O2 sensor,don't question my knowledge of car's.Just stop talking to me,I don't like know it all's like you.Go away.

 

[Maz]

No worries with short idle times like that. I'm talking about people who idle for looooong periods of time, such as overnight while sleeping inside the vehicle for 8 hours straight. People have been known to do that, believe it or not.

OK, now I feel very relieved. I usually warm up about 5 maybe 10 minutes if I get distracted, or 20 if I've forgotten once or twice. Running a car all night? Wierd...these people never heard of motels, or down sleeping bags?