Clicking sound coming from left front 4WD 4R.

[B_N]

Hi guys, I'm Butch from Dracut, MA.
I've never worked on a 4WD vehicle before, but have worked on/built cars since, well, along time ago.

My S/O has a '93 with a V6, auto, 4WD & it's making what appears to sound like the big knobby tire sound from the left front.

The upper ball joint was bad & the hub (auto locking) bearings were bad, which were also replaced.
The axle is tight & lower ball joint are OK.

My thoughts are that there is something wrong inside the transfer case as when I drove along side the 4runner when the vehicle slowed, I heard a metal clicking sound like something disengaging when the sound stopped.

That description said, is it your guys expert opinion that the xfer case internals are bad & if so, should I replace it or can I just pull out the axle & toss a bad axle, )cut at the out CV joint to keep the hub assy together) yo alleviate the noise.

She doesn't use 4WD, & never has since she bought it new in '93.

Thanks.

 

[fourwd1]

Does the noise happen always, only in 4WD, only when turning, etc?

The CV joint could be bad.

 

[B_N]

I wrote she does not use 4WD, so that means the sound is happening in 2WD, & when an axle is good as I wrote, that means the inner & outer CV joints are good.

 

[the_dingman]

Technically the CV joints could be bad with a good axle, but it sounds as though that was already checked along with the axle.

If the noise is coming from the front of the truck, it's not the transfer case. The transfer case is located behind the transmission, and would sound like it's coming from under the seats.

As for the sound of something disengaging, it could be an issue with the auto-locking hub, and it may be locking when 4WD is not engaged.

The way the hubs work, the 4WD system is supposed to be completely stationary when not engaged. So when you're not in 4WD, the transfer case, differential and front axles should not be moving at all. The locking hubs are supposed to lock in when the axles begin turning, and disengage when reversed, it sounds like one might be set up wrong, and it's engaging when the wheel is turning. I would make sure the hub was replaced properly, and that it's functioning properly. I know auto-hubs are known to be finicky, and based on the symptoms, I'd check there first.

4Runners also have a history of making loud grunting noises when turning sharply, so if that's the only time it happens, it could be a balljoint, or simply a flaw of the design.

 

[B_N]

Technically the CV joints could be bad with a good axle, but it sounds as though that was already checked along with the axle.

We up here in New England don't consider an axle good if a CV joint is bad since the actual axle (1/2 shaft) is just a 8" or so rod connecting the CV joints, but yeah, 2 of us, & 2 techs at a garage have checked the axle, & CV joints, & it's tight. The techs at the garage are stumped as well!

If the noise is coming from the front of the truck, it's not the transfer case. The transfer case is located behind the transmission, and would sound like it's coming from under the seats.

Shows my 4WD ignorance!
I thought where the front axles attached to was called the transfer case.

As for the sound of something disengaging, it could be an issue with the auto-locking hub, and it may be locking when 4WD is not engaged.

The way the hubs work, the 4WD system is supposed to be completely stationary when not engaged. So when you're not in 4WD, the transfer case, differential and front axles should not be moving at all. The locking hubs are supposed to lock in when the axles begin turning, and disengage when reversed, it sounds like one might be set up wrong, and it's engaging when the wheel is turning.

We drove it yesterday & tried it in 4WD hi & lo, no difference in sound. I don't know how it would be "setup", but she told me it started making this noise a couple of years ago just before her husband died. They took it to a couple of garages back then when he could still drive & the garages could not figure it out. So since her husband was getting too sick to drive, & she did not drive, the truck was parked & has sat in her driveway since.

Since she got rides from family & friends, which started to diminish, she learned to drive & needs a vehicle. Since she bought this SUV new & it has been paid off for many years, runs great, doesn't look so bad & is fully loaded, she figured she'd re-register it & drive it.

I would make sure the hub was replaced properly, and that it's functioning properly. I know auto-hubs are known to be finicky, and based on the symptoms, I'd check there first.

The hub was never replaced, though it was removed for an upper & lower ball joint replacement from what I see, but that's it.
I don't see how it could be installed wrong or how it auto locks.
I know I could go look at an FSM, but figured I'd go to a forum where 9 out of 10 times forum members know the most & know the tips/tricks which an FSM doesn't show.

4Runners also have a history of making loud grunting noises when turning sharply, so if that's the only time it happens, it could be a ball joint, or simply a flaw of the design.

No grunting, just the sound of what sounds like a large knobby tire while driving forward, (never did try in reverse), or a badly cupped/worn tire, which was checked out & is OK.

 

[the_dingman]

Still sounds like a hub problem to me... Have someone drive it in 2WD very slowly, and look under the truck while it's moving to see if the front axle is moving at all.

 

[B_N]

Still sounds like a hub problem to me... Have someone drive it in 2WD very slowly, and look under the truck while it's moving to see if the front axle is moving at all.

I'll check it out.
By chance do you, or anyone here have a diagram of the hub assy bearing & retainer discs stackup?

I'll wager when the balljoints were done, it was put together incorrectly from what I'm reading here & that's probably when the noise started, or shortly thereafter.

EDIT, we just got home & had a brief letup with the rain so I had her drive while I looked.

The axles on both sides rotate when the vehicle moves, in either direction, but the sound is predominate on the left.

 

[the_dingman]

Unless the truck is in 4WD, the axles should not be moving. Have someone take a look at the hubs, or better yet, switch out to manual hubs.


Manual hubs need to be locked on the hub before you can shift into 4WD, however for loss of convenience, you gain a few advantages: Auto hubs tend to have problems (like yours) and manual hubs are pretty fool-proof. If you've got manual hubs, you can also shift-on-the-fly in and out of 4WD (as long as you've already locked the hubs). The largest difference is that auto hubs are designed to release in reverse, meaning that with auto locking hubs, you won't get 4WD while in reverse, weather engaged or not, with manuals, this is not an issue.

 

[the_dingman]

New idea!

If you've ever played with a car on jacks, and spun a drive wheel, you'll notice the other drive wheel will spin the opposite direction due to the differential. A possibility is that the right hub is locked in and spinning the axle, causing the other to spin backwards of the way the wheel is spinning, clicking that hub in and out...

 

[ovrrdrive]

A 93 V6 Auto will have ADD won't it?

Which means the hubs are always locked, and the CV's are always turning...

I have no idea where the problem might be, but if you're hearing a loud tire have you checked the tie rods, idler and Pittman as well when you did the ball joints?

When you jack the tire off the ground can you rock it up and down (from 6 to 12 o'clock)? (wheel bearings) Or from side to side (TRE's)?

How many miles on the truck?

 

[the_dingman]

A 93 V6 Auto will have ADD won't it?

possible, I am a drummer, and therefor half re****ed...

 

[B_N]

Ok guys, here's an update since the rain subsided a bit tonight.

I went to a parking lot & did a test.
I put the truck in 4WD L & then tried H tonight.

The tranny would not engage until I gave it more gas, kinda like a regular 2WD auto tranny does when it's either going south or when it's low on tranny fluid.

But when it did engage the same noise appeared in both H & L.

When I put it back in 2WD, backed up to disengage, the noise appeared as well.

So does this mean her 4WD portion is N.G.?

Also, what does ADD mean?

 

[the_dingman]

There's three basic kinds of 4WD:

Manual Hubs: Requires manually turning knobs on the hub of each front wheel to lock the hub to the front axle/driveshaft. These are somewhat inconvenient, however are reliable and allow shifting into and out of 4WD at almost any speed as long as the hubs are locked.

Auto Locking hubs: These will automatically lock the wheels to the driveshaft whenever force is applied from the front driveshaft by having entering 4WD. The hubs automatically unlock when going in reverse. Auto hubs are more convenient, however they tend to go bad, as the clutch that engages and disengages them will sometimes wear out.

Both of these systems save you gas milage by letting your hubs 'free wheel' when not in 4WD, reducing friction and resistance caused by the wheels having to spin the front differential, axles and driveshaft. On these systems, when not in 4WD, none of these parts should be moving.

ADD is a system where the hubs are always locked to the differential. This allows easy shifting in and out of 4WD, without having to worry about manually locking hubs, reversing to unlock auto hubs, or hubs failing. The only disadvantage to this system is that you are always turning the front 4WD components, which can cause loss in fuel efficiency.

 

[B_N]

It's ironic you mention loss in fuel efficiency.

She has told me that the SUV always got bad mileage.

So I'm guessing the ADD thing in her SUV is bad & only a 93 front differential, which I guess is what is bad, will fit the bill for what I need to have replaced, or at least rebuilt.

Is this vehicle worth it to rebuild the front differential?

And my 1st question still stands, can I just use 1/2 shafts cut at the hub so the hub & bearings stay put & not use 4WD at all?

BTW, the above method is what we do on FWD cars when no tranny is in so we can manuver the car w/out the hub assy coming apart on us.

I just figured maybe I can make it a more permanent type "fix" to avoid a costly repair bill.

 

[ovrrdrive]

I think I'd look in to doing a manual hub conversion on it and leave the diff, and the CV's alone if you never use the 4wd. I'd do the conversion even if you do use 4wd (even more so then) and then look for the other problems and fix them. The manual conversion is one of the best things you can do to an ADD truck to improve road manners, increase gas mileage, and reduce wear and tear on the front end parts.

Search around Yotatech and 4x4 Wire and you'll find all the info you need to do the conversion.

http://www.yotatech.com/forumdisplay.php?f=116
http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=UBB11

You could probably get away with cutting the CV's but there's no way I could verify it is ok to do that or recommend it. Maybe ask that question at 4x4 Wire...

 

[B_N]

Would these hubs work in a 93: ebay manual hubs And these hubs: ebay hubs
And if so, is it an "easy" conversion?

 

[ovrrdrive]

Neither of those links work...

Here though, I did find the article I was looking for the other day. This should answer somw of your questions.

http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/autohub/

You should have the ADD system on your truck though and according to that article you just unbolt the ADD hub and bolt on the manual hub.

 

[B_N]

Sometimes I hate inserting links!
I did fix both of them though.

Anyway, thanks for that write up link & I just happened upon a set of hubs only 3 miles from me! http://boston.craigslist.org/nos/pts/453104971.html

He's going to sell them to me for $50 & I'm picking them up tomorrow.

Since the weather is still nice, I'm also going to try & get them installed tomorrow night.

I'll let you know how I made out.

 

[ovrrdrive]

Do you know about the cone washers?

If you haven't seen how to get them out yet you're in for a big surprise...

Make sure you have a can of PB blaster and a torch handy. Here are a few pics of how I figured out how to get mine off.

By the way, If and when you go to change the CV's you're going to have to do all of this again.

Just make sure you either use a brass punch to beat on the stud or put a nut back on the end and use an extension and a socket so you're not actually beating on the threads of the stud. You can mess them up quickly if you're not careful.

Most recommend using a brass drift and tapping on the end of the stud until the washer flies off but I didn't have a brass drift so I improvised.

 

[B_N]

Hi guys.

1st, I did know about the cone washers as I "found" them out when I went to replace what I thought was the axle being bad 1st.

I ended up using an old 9/16" deep socket putting it over the studs & 3lb sledge (PB too!) & impacted them out!

Well I bought the Warn Hubs, got home, had to jack the SUV & remove the
wheels since the AR rims had center covers.

Installation was a breeze once I saw what i was replacing & why.

The large knobby tire sound disappeared now that the axles aren't spinning.

As I wrote since she has never used 4WD, she doesn't care that the SUV
is now a 2WD vehicle & when I told her that mileage will now increase
she was ecstatic!

I want to thank you guys for the assistance & links, it was a great help
working on my 1st 4WD vehicle.

I've included pics of each stage, start to finish below.