Considering purchasing a 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee

[Donkey]

Just updated my info at truedelta.com.

That site is fascinating, thanks for posting it. Strangely I enjoy reading what people actually (or just say they did) bring a vehicle in for, I hope in the future they are able to break down the type of complaint to a given make, model and price range. Too bad they only have 87,000 members, not a very large sample.

Unrelated data point, 4Runner and Grand Cherokee sales figures:

Year 4Runner Grand
2002 77,026 224,233
2003 109,308 207,479
2004 114,212 182,313
2005 103,830 213,584
2006 103,086 139,148
2007 87,718 120,937
2008 47,878 73,678
2009 19,675 50,328
2010 46,531 84,635
2011 44,316 127,744
2012 48,755 154,734
2013 YTD * 25,427 80,796

Even with a few % of fleet sales that is a ton of units. People flocked to the cherokee after the carpocalypse. Even more depressing is the rest of the data on this site: GOOD CAR BAD CAR So many CUV's...buck the trend, buy a 4Runner.

 

[dorton]

I actually agree with you on that, last few years has been very subtle but obvious direction change in Toyota. They have gotten into the habit full-steam of de-contenting cars vs. inflating prices; not to mention that some of their parts are a bit suspect to me. We have a service campaign for '07-'11 Camry/Hybrid sunvisors that won't stay up properly. Not to mention Toyota is now cracking down on warranty with an Iron Fist that would make Putin blush; we have weekly audits of warranty claims where they nit pick everything and penalize the dealer, who passes it onto the customer, for every not needed clip and or bolt filed under warranty. Toyota is treading dangerous waters in my opinion with the direction their going, in their attempt to maintain against Kia/Hyundai's offerings (which everyone is trying to, to be honest since they have hit the ground running pretty damn strong past few years) they have sacrificed their usual high standard of quality to "just above the rest." Combining that with their new Service & Warranty strategies are going to make bad dealerships worse and force even good dealerships to bend the line.

But like I said, I can't make a judgement on reliability on Fiat until their vehicles have aged enough to make a difference. Toyota is still a pretty reliable and fluid company (they do have a lot of voluntary campaigns to address issues they find in vehicles as the age... to a degree, the FJ being an example as we have a reinforcement plate campaign to address what the engineers felt might be a weak point in the rear suicide doors) but they are letting them selves slip down a slippery slope and hoping their reputation will mask it and it will, but not forever. I'll still buy a Toyota/Scion/Lexus product over most any other because I know they hold up well and are built pretty well, but honestly that's today; 5-10 years from now... I'm not 100% sure given what I am seeing Toyota starting to lean towards.

I think you may have difficulties seeing the forest due to the trees blocking your view.

Being in a dealership, working day in, and day out. You work on cars in one of 2 categories; elective services/accessories, and repair. You (not specifically you, but service employees) tend to think on the negative side due to the atmosphere you are subjected to.
Toyota quality is not declining, but it's very difficult to gain by leaps and bounds, when there is only so high you can go. We have very low failure rates on all of our vehicles.

The sun visors on the Camrys are not being covered under a TSB. A TSB is a notification of manufacturing change, and does not change the expiration of the manufacturers warranty. The visors are being covered years beyond the normal 3/36k in response to a higher than normal failure rate. Jeep didn't want to recall the GC for fires/explosion due to gas tank issues, I don't see them stepping up and replacing sun visors at double the factory warranty time.

The warranty audits are normal, as once the failure is confirmed, toyota can reimburse the dealer, then go after the vendor for their reimbursement. The vendor is paying for the part, and deserves to have it returned. If there is a manufacturing issue, they can then make adjustment.

It's been 2 years since I've been debited for a part I felt was a legitimate repair that Toyota thought otherwise. Anytime you replace a trim component, especially interior, there's a good chance it will get called back for inspection. These are also heavily influenced by the service writer's CCR input, and warranty administration.

If you have any doubts on the pecking order of the current manufacturers products, hang out at a domestic dealer for a little while. You'll be glad you're still at Toyota.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I think you may have difficulties seeing the forest due to the trees blocking your view.

Being in a dealership, working day in, and day out. You work on cars in one of 2 categories; elective services/accessories, and repair. You (not specifically you, but service employees) tend to think on the negative side due to the atmosphere you are subjected to.
Toyota quality is not declining, but it's very difficult to gain by leaps and bounds, when there is only so high you can go. We have very low failure rates on all of our vehicles.

The sun visors on the Camrys are not being covered under a TSB. A TSB is a notification of manufacturing change, and does not change the expiration of the manufacturers warranty. The visors are being covered years beyond the normal 3/36k in response to a higher than normal failure rate. Jeep didn't want to recall the GC for fires/explosion due to gas tank issues, I don't see them stepping up and replacing sun visors at double the factory warranty time.

The warranty audits are normal, as once the failure is confirmed, toyota can reimburse the dealer, then go after the vendor for their reimbursement. The vendor is paying for the part, and deserves to have it returned. If there is a manufacturing issue, they can then make adjustment.

It's been 2 years since I've been debited for a part I felt was a legitimate repair that Toyota thought otherwise. Anytime you replace a trim component, especially interior, there's a good chance it will get called back for inspection. These are also heavily influenced by the service writer's CCR input, and warranty administration.

If you have any doubts on the pecking order of the current manufacturers products, hang out at a domestic dealer for a little while. You'll be glad you're still at Toyota.

Its not a TSB, I never said it was; Its a warranty enhancement, the TSB related to the Warranty Enhancement (the current TSB supersedes the original TSB associated with the Warranty Enhancement) is for improper removal/damage caused to the sheetmetal requiring a bracket to be installed, which is only covered under 3/36k warranty, while warranty enhancement on the visors is covered by 7yrs/no mileage limit. I've explained before on this form to members the differences between TSB, Recalls, and Campaigns according to Toyota. The point I intended to make in regards to the sunvisors was a poor quality part that should have been caught in less than the 4 years of production they talk about; some of those sunvisors were problematic less than 10k off the lot. (Camrys are the only ones being taken care of, but we've seen this on new Toyotas across the line.)

Its not about the frequency of the audits, its about the ridiculousness of what I have overhead them talking about claim wise and Toyota's approach to warranty recently. "Self-sealing Water pumps," the rather underhanded warranty coverage on the driveline clunk for 4th gens compared to other models afflicted with it. Toyota no longer wants to warranty water pumps, we're supposed to basically tell the customer to keep coming back and having it checked until it fails (which of course is out of warranty) otherwiseToyota rejects the majority of our water pumps all because they say they "self-seal." Granted many dealers were abusing warranty on water pumps, but now legitimate customers have had their claims denied and have been stalled on their repair as a result of the "new" warranty practices (not only at my dealership.) I watched the auditors (who obviously know little about the vehicles based on their interaction with the parts) try to decide if they should penalize us for ordering an extra clip for a trim panel, which they tried to decide couldn't have been a manufacturing defect (I know in fact it is was as I was talking to that tech about something when he worked on that car.) They have gotten far more strict in their warranty practices far more than ever before and to a point that it is alienating legitimate customers.

I realize I see a lot more negative side of things, but I also see an actual change in attitude. I'm not saying that they are as bad as Chrysler was, just that they are slipping into a habit that won't benefit them in the long run. Toyota is still a good company, but I think they're letting their standards slip below what they used to hold in the past.

 

[dorton]

I apologize on the TSB. I read what wasn't there, I guess out of habit.

Only reason I can fathom the hardcore examinations of your warranty parts vs. mine is your proximity to TMS.

 

[FStephenMasek]

...subtle but obvious direction change in Toyota..... cracking down on warranty.... attempt to maintain against Kia/Hyundai's offerings

As the old saying goes, you only have one reputation... Part of the problem is that so many buyers really can't afford the vehicles, as they are not doing what it takes to earn enough, and are spending too much. My suggestion: advertise that they are making superior value vehicles for people who are not broke, and then do so. Adding $1,000 to the cost of a vehicle will have no negative effect on my buying decision, but could make a tremendous difference in the quality and desirability of the vehicle.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I apologize on the TSB. I read what wasn't there, I guess out of habit.

Only reason I can fathom the hardcore examinations of your warranty parts vs. mine is your proximity to TMS.

Yeah don't worry about it, I do that too sometimes at work; not a lot of self-thinking employees at dealerships if you know what I mean.

The proximity to TMS could also be a factor; I'm just going by what we're seeing being provided in TIS, talking with factory reps, and experiencing at my dealershi p and one or two others when the techs visit.

 

[M1911]

Eeeww. Too crossovery and the variable cylinder management is just wrong.:vader:

But you like the Ridgeline? The Ridgeline is a cross-over under that ugly bodywork. The Ridgeline and Pilot share the same platform, same drivetrain, and are built on the same production line.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

But you like the Ridgeline? The Ridgeline is a cross-over under that ugly bodywork. The Ridgeline and Pilot share the same platform, same drivetrain, and are built on the same production line.

The Ridgeline is Honda's take on an El Camino, without the V8, cool old school touch, and its just worse than an El Camino...

 

[LandCruiser]

The Ridgeline is Honda's take on an El Camino, without the V8, cool old school touch, and its just worse than an El Camino...

The Ridgeline is the most asstarded vehicle in Honda's lineup.

Take a FWD platform and make it into a pickup without a proper BOF design to deal with the expected flexing of heavy loads and towing... Makes perfect sense. I'd like to put a few hundred pounds of crap into the bed, take it off road to get some flex, and see if I can't get a window to crack or pop out.

What kills me is that you that the spare is under the bed (just like in a car where you flip up a panel under the trunk liner)... so if you have something in the bed, as someone with a pickup might, you can't acces the spare.

So be careful if you're hauling a few hundred pounds of sheet rock or have a bed full of pine chips... cuz you ain't getting to the spare without removing all that shit first.

Or is Honda just assuming that their "pickup" buyers won't be hauling anything more than a few veggies from the local organic market?

 

[dorton]

Jeep Complaint Scoreboards listed by model car

http://mycarstats.com/reports/toyota/complaints.aspx

Another avenue for info.

 

[M1911]

The Ridgeline is Honda's take on an El Camino, without the V8, cool old school touch, and its just worse than an El Camino...

I'm not a Ridgeline fan either. The idea is reasonable -- many people who buy 1/2-ton pickups mostly haul air, so they really don't need something as big or rugged as an F150. A unibody pickup like the Ridgeline could have a much better ride and get better fuel economy. Unfortunately, Honda screwed it up badly, starting with horrible styling.

 

[M1911]

Take a FWD platform and make it into a pickup without a proper BOF design to deal with the expected flexing of heavy loads and towing... Makes perfect sense. I'd like to put a few hundred pounds of crap into the bed, take it off road to get some flex, and see if I can't get a window to crack or pop out.

What kills me is that you that the spare is under the bed (just like in a car where you flip up a panel under the trunk liner)... so if you have something in the bed, as someone with a pickup might, you can't acces the spare.

So be careful if you're hauling a few hundred pounds of sheet rock or have a bed full of pine chips... cuz you ain't getting to the spare without removing all that shit first.

Or is Honda just assuming that their "pickup" buyers won't be hauling anything more than a few veggies from the local organic market?

It's not meant to be as good at hauling large, heavy loads as a traditional 1/2-ton truck. But many folks who buy 1/2-ton trucks mostly haul air. Nor is it really meant to do significant offroading.

I'm not saying that Honda didn't screw it up -- they did. But I think there is a market niche there if they had done it right.

 

[LandCruiser]

It's not meant to be as good at hauling large, heavy loads as a traditional 1/2-ton truck. But many folks who buy 1/2-ton trucks mostly haul air. Nor is it really meant to do significant offroading.

I'm not saying that Honda didn't screw it up -- they did. But I think there is a market niche there if they had done it right.

But there are other reasons for buying pickups, too.

They're big, fast, have off moderate to serious road capability, RWD... often at 60% the cost of an SUV with a similar drivetrain. A GM, Ford, RAM truck will give you V8 power and RWD for less than 30 grand in some trims. They're also very comfortable and most are pretty damn fast.

Smaller trucks like the Taco are off road machines. I could totally understand buying a Taco to haul air if you need an off road rig, but can't afford 4Runner.

The Ridgeline sucks on road and off, can't haul, can't tow... It's as if they had no idea why people bought pickups.

 

[M1911]

Is a Ridgeline (or something similar) a good choice for someone who tows a lot or hauls a lot? No, it isn't. It won't do the work of a traditional 1/2 ton truck.

But many (most?) owners of 1/2 ton trucks haul air 99% of the time and never go offroad. A unibody pickup 9/10s the size of a 1/2 ton truck, crew cab, with a small bed and a 5k towing capacity would probably be more than enough for most people. It would be fine for picking up some bags of mulch at the garden center, or taking to the beach fishing, or towing a quad on the weekend.

The Ridgeline, unfortunately, is a bad implementation, as its fuel economy is no better than most 1/2 tons. And it is so damn ugly.

Saying that it sucks because it won't tow as much as an F150 or go offroad as well as a Taco is missing the point.

 

[Roadkill]

Just updated my info at truedelta.com. If you have a '12 JGC you have a 1 in 2 chance, based on history, of having to take it in for repairs. For the 5th gen 4Runner, you have about a 1 in 10 chance.

It's unfortunate that truedelta doesn't seem to have any data on 4Runners beyond the 2011 model.

Also, just to be pedantic, I don't think that's exactly what those numbers mean. I presume you were looking at the truedelta "reliability" stats, ie.

• Toyota 4Runner Reliability Comparisons
• Jeep Grand Cherokee Reliability Comparisons

These are the statistics regarding repair frequency rather than odds of no defects. Essentially, the distribution is skewed: on average, either owners have zero issues or they have more than one issue. The statistic regarding odds of having to repair the vehicle are apparently reported under "Lemon Odds"/"Odds of No Repairs":

• Toyota 4Runner Lemon Odds — 1 in 7 chance of having to take it in for repairs
• Jeep Grand Cherokee Lemon Odds — 1 in 3 chance of having to take it in for repairs (for the 2012 model, as you mentioned in your post)

As I said, the issue is somewhat academic because the difference in repair issues between the vehicles is clearly apparent.

Furthermore, it would be nice if there were a way to filter the unbiased repair data. For example, check out some cherry picked example "problems" from the 2011 4Runner problem history:

• "rubber foot tread on running board fell off, very minor cosmetic issue"
• "ABS engages in dry conditions under moderately strong braking"

These kind of data skew the statistics as well. I mean, these seem to be reported side-by-side with issues like "I bought this truck new and it was a LEMON. New drive shaft, faulty roof rack, transmission issues but the real problem was occasionally when I applied the breaks quickly the motor would cut off and I had NO power steering." (2010 4Runner). This latter problem counts as one and those other "issues" count as two? Seems to be a problematic methodology for generating statistics.

Not to get too far off track: the JGC has a much higher repair frequency, and the issues cited are frequently substantive (drivetrain, etc). However, there is also noise in the signal with people complaining about minutiae like erased radio presets when changing driver settings.

As with the 4Runner data, I'm reminded of Sesame Street: "One of these things is not like the other..."

 

[Mort81]

I'm a little late to this topic but here are my two cents. I own a '12 JGC and have never owned a 4runner. I don't go off road. When I purchased my Jeep I couldn't decide between it and the 4runner. I choose the jeep due to ride quality and styling. I was not a big fan of the 5th gen 4runner design as I was the 4th gen.

Now since I have owned my Jeep I have had numerous problems with it the first year I owned it I had 2 cylinder heads replaced, sway bar replaced, hub and bearing replaced, upper and lower control arms replaced. I doubt I buy another JGC unless the reliability improves over the long term.

 

[1engineer]

It's unfortunate that truedelta doesn't seem to have any data on 4Runners beyond the 2011 model.

Also, just to be pedantic, I don't think that's exactly what those numbers mean. I presume you were looking at the truedelta "reliability" stats, ie.

• Toyota 4Runner Reliability Comparisons
• Jeep Grand Cherokee Reliability Comparisons

These are the statistics regarding repair frequency rather than odds of no defects. Essentially, the distribution is skewed: on average, either owners have zero issues or they have more than one issue. The statistic regarding odds of having to repair the vehicle are apparently reported under "Lemon Odds"/"Odds of No Repairs":

• Toyota 4Runner Lemon Odds — 1 in 7 chance of having to take it in for repairs
• Jeep Grand Cherokee Lemon Odds — 1 in 3 chance of having to take it in for repairs (for the 2012 model, as you mentioned in your post)

As I said, the issue is somewhat academic because the difference in repair issues between the vehicles is clearly apparent.

Furthermore, it would be nice if there were a way to filter the unbiased repair data. For example, check out some cherry picked example "problems" from the 2011 4Runner problem history:

• "rubber foot tread on running board fell off, very minor cosmetic issue"
• "ABS engages in dry conditions under moderately strong braking"

These kind of data skew the statistics as well. I mean, these seem to be reported side-by-side with issues like "I bought this truck new and it was a LEMON. New drive shaft, faulty roof rack, transmission issues but the real problem was occasionally when I applied the breaks quickly the motor would cut off and I had NO power steering." (2010 4Runner). This latter problem counts as one and those other "issues" count as two? Seems to be a problematic methodology for generating statistics.

Not to get too far off track: the JGC has a much higher repair frequency, and the issues cited are frequently substantive (drivetrain, etc). However, there is also noise in the signal with people complaining about minutiae like erased radio presets when changing driver settings.

As with the 4Runner data, I'm reminded of Sesame Street: "One of these things is not like the other..."

I concur. The biggest eye-opener for me is that site is one of the very few (only?) places where you can go to get non biased information, regardless of the outliers. Forums like these will give you answers to questions but we have no data to back up any claim.

Now, no matter if your radio needs reset or you have a module on the transmission that needs replaced most still have to take it in for a repair. Very different problems but to most people it still means going without your vehicle for a day, arranging for rides or having kids picked up, etc. A disruption in life.

Again, for the amount of luxury a JGC can give you AND the reliability and durability of a 4Runner you need to be moving up the ladder in the range of 50-60K to a Lexus 470 or a little farther up to a Landcruiser. If I craved the bells and whistles I would buy a Landcruiser. Still might one of these days.

 

[WildwoodJeff]

Just a different view point, so I'll chime in..
I had a 04 4Runner, 09 Tacoma, then our company offered a Jeep GC for us, so I went with it.. They stopped offering it, so I just bought a 11 4Runner to use for business.
All Toyotas have had great track records, service wise, and were very capable off road. The 04, and 09 went over 200K miles without incident.
I only put 62K on the JGC, so I can't compare it reliability wise out to 200K. However my experience at 62K was very good. No issues with it.
The company did not share the same success rate as I did, that's why they dropped it. (FYI, they are offering a 4 cyl Highlander as the SUV choice now.. No thanks for me.)
When I test drove the 11 4Runner, I couldn't believe the difference. Made the jeep feel cheap and tinny.. And very small compared to the SR5.
I don't know how Toyota does it, but all my 4Ruuners have always felt so much more stable and solid.. It's no contest IMHO..

 

[tacobill]

I see many of you ragging on the Ridgeline. Hate to burst your Toyota bubble, but the Ridgeline tows every bit as good as my 2012 SR5. Perhaps even better as it has 4 wheel indy suspension which keeps it planted on hi-speed bumpy curves. I've towed our former Hi-Lo with both and the Ridge handled it just fine.

Now as to the styling........well, it's not a good looking vehicle, but seeing where the 2014 4Runners are headed let's just say Honda beat Toyota to the ugly........but Toyota is right behind them.

For light hauling and towing, smooth ride and the convenience of a trunk, Honda succeeded. My wife loved her 2007 so much, she traded for a 2013. Niche vehicle for sure, but I wonder how many raggers here owned one.

 

[Thai]

For light hauling and towing, smooth ride and the convenience of a trunk, Honda succeeded. My wife loved her 2007 so much, she traded for a 2013. Niche vehicle for sure, but I wonder how many raggers here owned one.

Any transmission issue with your '07?? I like the Ridgeline, but have heard horrible stories about the transmission and the poor gas mileage.