Crank Bolt Tightening

[dnath28]

Okay.. So I've been busy past few weeks with my rig. Pink Milkshake led to a radiator swap. After that with the new radiator in and filling it up I noticed oil was in the coolant.

So I went through draining the new radiator with water a thousand times and still noticed drops of oil in the radiator. So I said thats fine and took out the radiator to move to switch out the water pump and the timing belt along with the tensioner and two bearings. (Im at 142k miles)

Thats all done now, just need to get everything back together. Im at the step where I need to tighten the crank bolt. I rigged up a chain to my pulley (harmonic balancer?) and bolted it into the hole. (Was suggested to me through a search)

I tightened up the chain and started to proceed to tighten the crank bolt. When I went to turn it tight to a guess of 217 ft/lbs, the entire engine would slowly pull into the chain side and the pulley would turn slowly while I tried to tighten..

So whats the deal? I feel like any more torquing something would snap. The bolts are bending that are bolted to the pulley.

Is the crank bolt tight enough? I simply ratched it on and proceeded to this step.

My Main concern: Will this screw up my engine if my crank bolt isnt tight enough? Can it come lose and fly off?

Im trying to just get back on the road!!!! Any helps or suggestions please!!! :yell::mmph::ballchain::roadkill:

 

[1blink]

Loose crank bolt worst case scenario = replace engine. It's pretty damn important. That dog chain won't hold that kind of torque, and that ratchet isn't long enough of a lever to apply it. You need to put a 2 or 3 ft pipe over that ratchet and really pull to get to 216.

You can make your own crank pulley holder pretty cheaply.

Buy a 4' piece of 2" x 1/4" bar stock, a grade 8 bolt, nut and 2 washers for a pivot, and some grade 10 metric bolts to match the threaded holes on the harmonic balancer. Cut the bar, drill some holes and bolt it up.

Or, put it in park and torque against the timing belt, and hope the belt holds.

 

[TheDurk]

You are absolutely asking for trouble! "I went to turn it tight to a guess of 217 ft/lbs" ?? Get a torque wrench good to 250 ft-lbs. and buy or build a decent holder. You can't possibly 'guess'at that torque--I was amazed at how much force it took. I could never have guessed at it, and I've been wrenching a long time. My holder took 20 minutes and an investment of one 2x4 and two 3/8" stove bolts.

That looks like a hardware store bolt and like the man said, dog chain. Both will absolutely distort under that torque and I really don't know which will break first, but I doubt you can get to full torque with that setup.

I respect the heck out of Singtoe who suggested that approach, but I'm sure what you are doing is NOT what he had in mind.For sure you need a shorter bolt so the last link is bolted hard on to the pulley face eliminating that leverage effect and you need a stronger chain. But most of all you need a TORQUE WRENCH!!!

If the crank bolt is not fully torqued, it will come loose due to the enormous repetitive forces applied to it. As it does, the harmonic balancer will move forward and its center bore will start to get chewed up. Worse, the crank end will be abused. When the crank bolt eventually unthreads to the point it breaks, its last act will be to take the threads in the crank end with it. At that point, most will tell you it is better to get a new engine then try to replace the crank. So you are playing with the life of your engine.

Take a look at these:

http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Articles/012007_04.html

http://www.yotatech.com/f2/3-4-harmonic-bal-bolt-article-must-read-timing-belt-replacement-104490/index2.html

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/90239-harmonic-balancer-broke.html

From the top one:

Experience has taught us that guesswork is a bad gamble when tightening the harmonic balancer bolt on Toyota 's 5VZFE powerplant. This 3.4L V6, which debuted in 1995, is commonly found in such vehicles as the 4Runner, T100, Tacoma and Tundra. An improperly tightened crank bolt on this engine has unpleasant consequences—comebacks, misfiring, confusing trouble codes and possible engine damage.[bolding added]

 

[LittleCaesar]

1blink summed it up all pretty well.

Go to Lowes, Harbor Freight, etc. and buy a torque wrench that reads 217ft/lb. The crank bolt torque is not one to just go by feel.

 

[TheKorstjens]

Or, put it in park and torque against the timing belt, and hope the belt holds.

It wont...ask me how I know..haha. 2x4s are cheap. Well worth it.

 

[dnath28]

Loose crank bolt worst case scenario = replace engine. It's pretty damn important. That dog chain won't hold that kind of torque, and that ratchet isn't long enough of a lever to apply it. You need to put a 2 or 3 ft pipe over that ratchet and really pull to get to 216.

The 3 ft pipe isnt pictured here but yes I have one to put over And that chain can hold up to 350 lbs of pull.

Im just worried if I push down and tighten it more, something is going to get cracked from the engine pulling towards the chain. Its holding pretty snug its just im worried something will crack. You should see the engine go back into place when I relieve pressure.

For sure you need a shorter bolt so the last link is bolted hard on to the pulley face eliminating that leverage effect and you need a stronger chain. But most of all you need a TORQUE WRENCH!!!

I tried to screw in 3/8 inch bolt, however it wont thread into my pulley face? It just doesnt catch and will not screw in. Is it because im using the wrong bolt? I figured any bolt would work... guess I need a stove bolt?

And Durk, I was at the store getting the 2x4 but the chain seemed easier to do. But I still need to get the right bolts. What kind besides just 3/8"? I went down to 5/16" since those actually fit inside the pulley face (but didnt really screw in well)

 

[TheDurk]

No, the 3/8" bolts should just slide in. They are bolted into the 2x, not the HB. The thread in the harmonic balancer is metric. It doesn't need to be a stove bolt in the 2x holder, that's just what I had lying around. The ones I used were a little too long. Just take a 3/8" drill bit, slide it into the pulley hole as far as it will go, put your 2x next to the pulley, and mark the bit with some tape just outside the 2x. That's the length you want.

The puller holes are M8-1.25. Only the very back of the hole is threaded. The front part of the hole is 10mm unthreaded and that where the 3/8" bolt goes in.

With the chain, you are applying 217 ft.-lbs. (or trying to...) of torque to a 2-inch moment arm, resulting in a stress on that chain of roughly 1300 lbs. All respect to Singtoe, I'm not sure it will work.

EDIT: I see you say that chain rated at 350 lbs. means non-starter. Note: I only saw I_Bread's post after I had edited in almost the same thing.

By the way, use a new crankbolt or put LocTite on your old one.

 

[I_bRAD]

The 3 ft pipe isnt pictured here but yes I have one to put over And that chain can hold up to 350 lbs of pull.

You're trying to get to 217ft-lbs.
The chain is connected with a moment of about 1.5" by the look of the picture, so at 217ft-lbs, the chain would see a load of ~1700lbs!

 

[dnath28]

You're trying to get to 217ft-lbs.
The chain is connected with a moment of about 1.5" by the look of the picture, so at 217ft-lbs, the chain would see a load of ~1700lbs!

I wasnt the best in physics... But Yeah I am going to just go with the 2x4 method and go buy that now. I am just confused on what type of bolts to get since I can't find any that fit into the pulley face.

 

[02SE]

When I worked on consumer cars for a living, I used to see the results of mickey mouse type repair attempts on a regular basis.

While you are out buying a 2x4, (another mickey mouse attempt, that if you're lucky might work, or just split the board) buy a decent torque wrench.

If the 2x4 fails (as I've seen happen on this and other websites) buy the correct tool: Schley Products SP 64400 Toyota Harmonic Damper Pulley Holding Tool | Pullers, Holders, Belt Tools

If the crank bolt isn't torqued properly, it is very likely to work it's way loose. Then the pulley and damper will start to wobble. Eventually that will ruin the end of the crank, which means pulling the engine to repair or replace the crank.

I'd recommend buying a new crank bolt too.

Bottom line: Buy the right tools to do the job, and use proper procedures to perform the work, or you're likely to have issues completing the job, or have issues with the end results down the road.

 

[TheDurk]

When I worked on consumer cars for a living, I used to see the results of mickey mouse type repair attempts on a regular basis.

While you are out buying a 2x4, (another mickey mouse attempt, that if you're lucky might work, or just split the board) buy a decent torque wrench.

If the 2x4 fails (as I've seen happen on this and other websites) buy the correct tool: Schley Products SP 64400 Toyota Harmonic Damper Pulley Holding Tool | Pullers, Holders, Belt Tools

If the crank bolt isn't torqued properly, it is very likely to work it's way loose. Then the pulley and damper will start to wobble. Eventually that will ruin the end of the crank, which means pulling the engine to repair or replace the crank.

I'd recommend buying a new crank bolt too.

Bottom line: Buy the right tools to do the job, and use proper procedures to perform the work, or you're likely to have issues completing the job, or have issues with the end results down the road.

I'm an ex- carpenter. I have never seen one made according to my instructions fail. The fails I have seen posted all had obvious (to me) flaws in design. Don't call it Mickey Mouse if you don't understand woodworking.

 

[1blink]

The 2x4 method was successful for me when I tried it.

 

[02SE]

I haven't looked at your 2x4 set up.

The ones I'm referring to had a hole drilled in the middle to access the crank bolt, and then two smaller holes for bolts to stick though to hold the crank from turning. Basically approximating what the tool I posted a link to does. The problem was the 2x4 split in a couple of cases I've seen posted on the Web.

In at least one case when the 2x4 split, the sudden release of pressure being applied to the torque wrench, caused the person to damage their radiator with the handle of said wrench. Their hand suffered a bit in that instance too. That was definitely a mickey mouse set up.

An even better mickey mouse set up, was someone wedging a breaker bar against a frame rail, and then bumping the starter to loosen the crank bolt. When the socket unsurprisingly popped off the crank bolt, it ended in another damaged beyond repair radiator.

Generally, the idea of auto repair (or any repair for that matter) is to repair the problem, not create even more problems by using chancy mickey mouse methods.

My advice is to use the right tools for the job.

 

[dnath28]

I haven't looked at your 2x4 set up.

The ones I'm referring to had a hole drilled in the middle to access the crank bolt, and then two smaller holes for bolts to stick though to hold the crank from turning. Basically approximating what the tool I posted a link to does. The problem was the 2x4 split in a couple of cases I've seen posted on the Web.

In at least one case when the 2x4 split, the sudden release of pressure being applied to the torque wrench, caused the person to damage their radiator with the handle of said wrench. Their hand suffered a bit in that instance too. That was definitely a mickey mouse set up.

An even better mickey mouse set up, was someone wedging a breaker bar against a frame rail, and then bumping the starter to loosen the crank bolt. When the socket unsurprisingly popped off the crank bolt, it ended in another damaged beyond repair radiator.

Generally, the idea of auto repair (or any repair for that matter) is to repair the problem, not create even more problems by using chancy mickey mouse methods.

My advice is to use the right tools for the job.

Obviously you should have your radiator out when proceeding to being creative in the garage while working on the front of the engine. I also did the "bump" method to loosen.

I will buy the 2x4 tomorrow and rent the torque wrench tomorrow from advanced auto.

The issue with the "mickey mousing" is I just recently graduated college and am unable to find a job. Just on and off work when its available. I got no cash to be buying a tool for a job I would do once every so many years.

Hopefully this will all be resolved tomorrow.

 

[LittleCaesar]

:behindsofa:

I agree very much that using the right tool for the right job, especially for auto repair, usually produces the best results time and time again with little risk.

One guy posted that he broke two ribs changing his belt with the bump start method. If one has anxiety over doing such, use a strong zip tie to secure the end of the breaker bar to the frame.

Considering Durk's ingenious use of the belt tensioner tool, I'd trust him to change my T-belt any old day.

Where 02SE postulates that using the right tool is the best way and should not be deviated from, then those Toyo dealers and others who reach for the 3/4 or 1 inch impact to take off and tighten back the crank bolt on and not the damper holding tool need to be admonished. The FSM says nothing about using an impact wrench.

Good luck to the OP with the rest of the job.

 

[slapdappy]

I borrowed a 250lb torque wrench from Autozone's loaner program. Only concern with a borrowed torque wrench is its accuracy. I checked this one and it was pretty much spot on.

 

[Chandlerdoom]

I borrowed a 250lb torque wrench from Autozone's loaner program. Only concern with a borrowed torque wrench is its accuracy. I checked this one and it was pretty much spot on.

Seriously, does no one know that they offer this? Some money upfront for the tool and you get all the money back on return.

 

[slapdappy]

Borrowed a kit to test my cylinder compression last week. Borrowed a 52?mm impact socket to remove front axle bolt when installing new axle on my Outback.

 

[02SE]

:behindsofa:

I agree very much that using the right tool for the right job, especially for auto repair, usually produces the best results time and time again with little risk.

One guy posted that he broke two ribs changing his belt with the bump start method. If one has anxiety over doing such, use a strong zip tie to secure the end of the breaker bar to the frame.

Considering Durk's ingenious use of the belt tensioner tool, I'd trust him to change my T-belt any old day.

Where 02SE postulates that using the right tool is the best way and should not be deviated from, then those Toyo dealers and others who reach for the 3/4 or 1 inch impact to take off and tighten back the crank bolt on and not the damper holding tool need to be admonished. The FSM says nothing about using an impact wrench.

Good luck to the OP with the rest of the job.

One of the places I worked back in the day as a Master tech, was a Dealership. At least until I could no longer tolerate their dishonest business practices.

Unfortunately, there are hacks working in Dealerships and other repair shops. I have several friends that still work in Dealerships and private shops. They are always telling about the antics of the hacks where they work. Loosening a crank bolt with an impact is one thing, putting it back on with an impact is poor practice, and is asking for trouble.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, OP. I understand needing to save cash too. I'm only relating what I've seen from experience: Cutting corners by using questionable tools or methods, increases the likelihood of costing you more (sometimes much more) in the long run.

 

[TheDurk]

I haven't looked at your 2x4 set up.

The ones I'm referring to had a hole drilled in the middle to access the crank bolt, and then two smaller holes for bolts to stick though to hold the crank from turning. Basically approximating what the tool I posted a link to does. The problem was the 2x4 split in a couple of cases I've seen posted on the Web.

In at least one case when the 2x4 split, the sudden release of pressure being applied to the torque wrench, caused the person to damage their radiator with the handle of said wrench. Their hand suffered a bit in that instance too. That was definitely a mickey mouse set up.

An even better mickey mouse set up, was someone wedging a breaker bar against a frame rail, and then bumping the starter to loosen the crank bolt. When the socket unsurprisingly popped off the crank bolt, it ended in another damaged beyond repair radiator.

Generally, the idea of auto repair (or any repair for that matter) is to repair the problem, not create even more problems by using chancy mickey mouse methods.

My advice is to use the right tools for the job.

Again, I am fully aware of the 2x disasters. Putting both holes on the centerline and cutting the board right after the hole will virtually guarantee the board will split and no one who knows wood would ever do it that way. The failures I saw all had one or both defects. But lousy execution of anything we do in life will bite you in the butt. I assert a Durk-built 2x rig IS the right tool for the job and I object to accusations of Mickeymouseitude.

I also successfully did the starter bump to remove the bolt--with the rad in place--and I'd do it again if I had to. (I hadn't built the tool yet.) As with the 2x4, there is a right way and a wrong way, and the right tool in the wrong hands is no guarantee of success.

I started wrenching on tractors when I was 11 or 12, and I still do. Tractors are very unforgiving of dumb mistakes. Big pieces of cast iron and spinning steel can kill you. I learned safety early and I still have all my body parts.

There is no substitute for an understanding of the forces involved and the strength and other characteristics of the materials employed.