Crank Bolt Tightening
- Thread starter dnath28
- Start date
Mean Kitty
Junior Member
Thanks Unner for the info. Just ordered that as well
Now just to go see how high my torque wrench goes Thanks again for the post.Mean Kitty
LittleCaesar
New member
If you go this route take some pics and post them. I have seen a farmer use this method on a tractor but never on a 5vz engine. I wouldn't do it for all the tea in China.
TheDurk
Elite Member
I've used it on single-cylinders and yes, it's an old farmer trick for tractors. The torque is so extreme on this that I would recommend using both cylinders of a cycle pair to halve the stress on the pistons/rods (1&4 or 2&5 or 3&6).
Definitely take pics and report back if you do this. I thought of doing it that way, but it only took me 20 minutes to gin up a 2x4 tool from stuff I had lying around that worked fine.
I'm not as negative as L.C. above. Than again, I used the starter bump to get it off and a lot of people won't do that. It should work, but there are no guarantees. I'm pretty sure I would have seen it if someone else had tried it and posted here or YT.
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animator
New member
This is the tool I made for holding the balancer. It's 4' long, so appropriate torque is quite easy to achieve. You can hold it in one hand, and turn the wrench with another (with a good cheater) and it'll spin the bolt right off. The steel pins thread into the handle and are removable if they become damaged. Mine bent a little while torquing the bolt on final assembly.
I could use bolts in place of the steel rod, but I had the rod at the time, and no bolts.
I could use bolts in place of the steel rod, but I had the rod at the time, and no bolts.
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I'm not due for a timing belt anytime soon but I'd give it a shot. I don't have any use for all the tea in China anyhow!
I like Durk's suggestion to put rope in two cylinders to spread out the load.
Mean Kitty
Junior Member
Big problems 
Finally got to taking the Harmonic balancer off today, since the parts all have arrived. Of course I managed to break a few things in the process, and found several rounded nuts & bolts which really made for a pain in the butt job. Getting the HB off was actually not to bad, so Im thinking it wasn't torqued on as tight as it should have been. Now for the bad news, is I am thinking this HB must have come loose for the previous owner. There is some wear on the crankshaft nose, its got a slight taper to it Also the HB has a copper sleeve of some sort pounded into it (Im guessing to work as a shim to keep it in place). It did seem pretty sturdy when I pulled it off, there wasn't any play in it (It didn't wobble on the shaft)... Now that I pulled that off, I could see that part of the woodruff key appeard to be sheared off. when pulling off the crank timing gear I managed to break off a nice chunk of teeth on the back side. (Dangit!) I did finally get it off, and it appears that the woodruff key may be welded in place (which might explain why the front of it is missing/sheared off) I could not get the key off the shaft no matter what I tried. There were also a lot of metal shavings everywhere. I could see some wear on the back side of the HB, which looks like it was rubbing on the timing belt guide (which also has a lot of wear/shavings). Anyways, I am really starting to wonder why I thought I could fix this. Looks like it is going to be a major pain job, and Im not sure if i'll be able to get it fixed any better than it was, since some components are not really going to be swap-able without changing out the crank shaft, which is definitely not something I could do myself. Im attaching a few pics to show the damage and get some input hopefully on best way to go about fixing this stuff. I did managed to get the new water pump and thermostat installed, and a new TB tensioner bearing (I also got a new tensioner - will put that in after). I also have a new HB to install, but am wondering if I should try and get a sleeve to put on the shaft like the last hack did? I can't think of any other ideas. I think the wobble was really from the HB not being completly lined up with the key, it look like it was off slightly, since there is a chunk of the HB missing right next to the key slot (or it slipped due to there being no key there, and just started pulling away)....
Any ideas or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Oh, one other thing, how does one go about figuring out what bolts to order when you break one, strip one, etc... One of the nuts on the fan was totally round, I ended up using visegrips to get it off. When i put the water pump on I snapped the head off (i was using torque wrench set to 81 f/lbs) - and then I had a rounded bolt that I couldn't get any of my sockets to fit on, and ended up using a bolt extractor/grabber to get it off) This was one of the long bolts holding the AC Compressor on. Is there a parts list with Part#'s on like an exploded view of all the pieces/parts on any given part of the truck? What do you guys usually do? Thanks again for any help or ideas anyone can share.
Finally got to taking the Harmonic balancer off today, since the parts all have arrived. Of course I managed to break a few things in the process, and found several rounded nuts & bolts which really made for a pain in the butt job. Getting the HB off was actually not to bad, so Im thinking it wasn't torqued on as tight as it should have been. Now for the bad news, is I am thinking this HB must have come loose for the previous owner. There is some wear on the crankshaft nose, its got a slight taper to it
Also the HB has a copper sleeve of some sort pounded into it (Im guessing to work as a shim to keep it in place). It did seem pretty sturdy when I pulled it off, there wasn't any play in it (It didn't wobble on the shaft)... Now that I pulled that off, I could see that part of the woodruff key appeard to be sheared off. when pulling off the crank timing gear I managed to break off a nice chunk of teeth on the back side. (Dangit!) I did finally get it off, and it appears that the woodruff key may be welded in place (which might explain why the front of it is missing/sheared off) I could not get the key off the shaft no matter what I tried. There were also a lot of metal shavings everywhere. I could see some wear on the back side of the HB, which looks like it was rubbing on the timing belt guide (which also has a lot of wear/shavings). Anyways, I am really starting to wonder why I thought I could fix this. Looks like it is going to be a major pain job, and Im not sure if i'll be able to get it fixed any better than it was, since some components are not really going to be swap-able without changing out the crank shaft, which is definitely not something I could do myself. Im attaching a few pics to show the damage and get some input hopefully on best way to go about fixing this stuff. I did managed to get the new water pump and thermostat installed, and a new TB tensioner bearing (I also got a new tensioner - will put that in after). I also have a new HB to install, but am wondering if I should try and get a sleeve to put on the shaft like the last hack did? I can't think of any other ideas. I think the wobble was really from the HB not being completly lined up with the key, it look like it was off slightly, since there is a chunk of the HB missing right next to the key slot (or it slipped due to there being no key there, and just started pulling away).... Any ideas or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Oh, one other thing, how does one go about figuring out what bolts to order when you break one, strip one, etc... One of the nuts on the fan was totally round, I ended up using visegrips to get it off. When i put the water pump on I snapped the head off (i was using torque wrench set to 81 f/lbs) - and then I had a rounded bolt that I couldn't get any of my sockets to fit on, and ended up using a bolt extractor/grabber to get it off) This was one of the long bolts holding the AC Compressor on. Is there a parts list with Part#'s on like an exploded view of all the pieces/parts on any given part of the truck? What do you guys usually do? Thanks again for any help or ideas anyone can share.
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SilverRidgeRunner1
Member
Finally got to taking the Harmonic balancer off today, since the parts all have arrived. Of course I managed to break a few things in the process, and found several rounded nuts & bolts which really made for a pain in the butt job. Getting the HB off was actually not to bad, so Im thinking it wasn't torqued on as tight as it should have been. Now for the bad news, is I am thinking this HB must have come loose for the previous owner. There is some wear on the crankshaft nose, its got a slight taper to it
Any ideas or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Oh, one other thing, how does one go about figuring out what bolts to order when you break one, strip one, etc... One of the nuts on the fan was totally round, I ended up using visegrips to get it off. When i put the water pump on I snapped the head off (i was using torque wrench set to 81 f/lbs) - and then I had a rounded bolt that I couldn't get any of my sockets to fit on, and ended up using a bolt extractor/grabber to get it off) This was one of the long bolts holding the AC Compressor on. Is there a parts list with Part#'s on like an exploded view of all the pieces/parts on any given part of the truck? What do you guys usually do? Thanks again for any help or ideas anyone can share.
IDK if its my old age but the end of that crank looks likes its been in a interesting Predicament. I would be interested to see what the run out is on it and if there is any warpage.
Mean Kitty
Junior Member
I think I managed to find part #'s for most of the parts I need now after searching lots and lots of different places. Should anyone run into the same snag as me, the crankshaft timing gear (the one with the little teeth on the back) is part# 12521-62031, the timing belt guide (this sits right in front of the timing gear, and has the holes in it around the outer edge) is part# 13567-62010.
As far as replacement bolts for the A/C compressor, I found a post by TheDurk (I think this guy knows everything) with a parts list for the compressor. The long bolts are part# 90099-04950.
By the way where can more pics like this be found? I have a copy of the Service Manual that was posted way back, it has some diagrams and repair procedures, but it doesn't have any of the part numbers for anything. I would so love to have a book or PDF that had info like this link:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/178514-c-belt-bolt-broke.html#post1805143
Anyways gotta wait for parts to arrive now, probably won't be able to get back to putting this together till January now.
Mean Kitty
As far as replacement bolts for the A/C compressor, I found a post by TheDurk (I think this guy knows everything)
with a parts list for the compressor. The long bolts are part# 90099-04950. By the way where can more pics like this be found? I have a copy of the Service Manual that was posted way back, it has some diagrams and repair procedures, but it doesn't have any of the part numbers for anything. I would so love to have a book or PDF that had info like this link:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/178514-c-belt-bolt-broke.html#post1805143
Anyways gotta wait for parts to arrive now, probably won't be able to get back to putting this together till January now.
Mean Kitty
Unner
New member
Oh, one other thing, how does one go about figuring out what bolts to order when you break one, strip one, etc... One of the nuts on the fan was totally round, I ended up using visegrips to get it off. When i put the water pump on I snapped the head off (i was using torque wrench set to 81 f/lbs) - and then I had a rounded bolt that I couldn't get any of my sockets to fit on, and ended up using a bolt extractor/grabber to get it off) This was one of the long bolts holding the AC Compressor on. Is there a parts list with Part#'s on like an exploded view of all the pieces/parts on any given part of the truck? What do you guys usually do? Thanks again for any help or ideas anyone can share.
I have no idea what to tell you about the HB. That really sucks...
As for bolts you can always order them from Toyota, or if it isn't a super essential bolt you can usually match it up with something from Lowes. 81 ft/lbs is WAY to high for the water pump. Those bolts/nuts only go to 14 ft lbs.
Mean Kitty
Junior Member
I've seen a few pics from others who have had this problem, it really does suck. Aside from replacing the crankshaft, I am open to any ideas, even if its not real conventional, since I will probably endup driving it with whatever fix I can get to work on it until it becomes a bigger problem. I am hoping that I can just get the new HB to fit on there, get it in the right place and hopefully get a few years use out of it. Currently the best idea I have (well the only one that I can think that might work) is to weld a nice bean infront of the woodruff key - maybe half inch long from the end of the key towards the front of the shaft, then very carefully square it off with a grinder so that it fits into the new HB slot. Then install the new Timing crank, belt, belt guide, HB, and then see if I can get a sleeve pounded in like the copper one that was in the old HB. I've found this online 2002 Toyota 4Runner 3RZ Harmonic Balancer Seal Saver / Crank Shaft Repair Sleeve - 99189 - TEAMYOTA does anyone think this sort of sleeve would work to fill in the tapered void? I know this is a really crappy way to do this, but I really don't want to tear the whole engine apart.
I don't know where I saw 81ft/lbs posted, it seemed crazy high. And obviously this info was not correct. Fortunately the broken bolt came out pretty easy, and I was able to get a new one at Autozone.
Thanks for the reply, and I am definitly open to any creative ideas in fixing this
Mean Kitty
4Ruster
New member
First, an overdue thanks to those who have shared in the past (Safelite windshield recommendation).
So I'm 265 miles from home and my 10/98 production date 4R starts making a funky whirring noise. I notice the harmonic balancer (HB) on the 3.4 is doing the fandango. Finished the trip (another 600 miles plus and then more local stuff before I was convinced my first diagnosis was correct - denial, I know). Did a bunch of research but don't have an FSM for my rig (off to buy a Haynes shortly) but in the meantime:
1. Do you need a puller of some type to remove the old HB?
2. I recall reading (here on T4R I believe) that folks have had good luck with the Dorman HB which goes about $150 on Rock Auto, versus $331 for the genuine Toy article on Parts dot com. Yes, I'm going to use a new crank bolt and Loctite too ...
3. I agree with 02SE, when you can afford the right tools, cough up. Accordingly, I'm not going to fab an HB/pulley holder, going to buy one, and a torque wrench too. I welcome your thoughts in the "do it once, do it right" vein.
Again, thanks to those who have steered me right in the past!
So I'm 265 miles from home and my 10/98 production date 4R starts making a funky whirring noise. I notice the harmonic balancer (HB) on the 3.4 is doing the fandango. Finished the trip (another 600 miles plus and then more local stuff before I was convinced my first diagnosis was correct - denial, I know). Did a bunch of research but don't have an FSM for my rig (off to buy a Haynes shortly) but in the meantime:
1. Do you need a puller of some type to remove the old HB?
2. I recall reading (here on T4R I believe) that folks have had good luck with the Dorman HB which goes about $150 on Rock Auto, versus $331 for the genuine Toy article on Parts dot com. Yes, I'm going to use a new crank bolt and Loctite too ...
3. I agree with 02SE, when you can afford the right tools, cough up. Accordingly, I'm not going to fab an HB/pulley holder, going to buy one, and a torque wrench too. I welcome your thoughts in the "do it once, do it right" vein.
Again, thanks to those who have steered me right in the past!
stir_fry_boy
New member
You generally don't need a puller to get the HB off. Sometimes you need 2 long screwdrivers to "walk" it off the crank, but that's it. Dorman is cheap crap. I would take a used HB over a Dorman. Look at car-part.com to see if one is available near you. Why do you think you need to replace it?
If you want to know what the dealer techs use, it is a chain wrench 24" which runs about $50 on Amazon. I would not buy the special holder tool, I would buy the chain wrench only because it would be compatible with many other jobs. A 2x4 works just fine.
4Ruster
New member
I don't think used is a good option for this particular repair, but thanks regarding Dorman.
Long ago (26 years) I was a tech. Not pretending to be a master mech, but I'm certainly no beginner either. Still do most of my own work. Balancer is wobbling all over the place at idle. Don't recall it ever doing that before. Timing belt was done ~ 30K ago (by independent shop, before I bought truck) and has run flawlessly (minus plugs, wires, I did about a year ago) during my ownership. HB is still tight on crank but the crank pulley is all over the place. Not good.
Can't be sure, but HB looks like it has a timing notch nearest the TB cover and another groove further out on the pulleys that should line up if they're timing marks. Not lined up, suggesting outter ring is dancing to its own tune. Another not good. Haven't put a light on it yet ... really don't want to run engine any more than I have to to get it into my shop when the parts and tools are all present.
At speed on the highway, getting odd running/vibes from engine it never had before. Had my buddy who has owned his own shop for ... 30 plus years eyeball it. "Interesting, dunno if that wobble is the source of that weird noise, but that wobble isn't good." Had local dedicated Toy guy look at it and he said, "Yeah, it's all rotted." Truck is 17 years old, has 235K or so on it, rubber deteriorates over time, particularly in hot/ozone environments, that HB wobble can't be good and has to be remedied anyway. All facts and symptoms taken together, it's a good bet the HB is on it's way out. I won't regret fixing it even if it doesn't prove to be the source of the new noise, because it has to be repaired anyway.
I have a chain wrench (left over from my mech days) and while it would probably work, you're running the risk of mangling the serpentine drive pulleys. I'm sure folks get away with it, and I'm sure other methods (2x4, giant Channel locks) work too. I'd rather be safe than sorry. Just my $0.02, YMMV.
Thanks for confirming that the pulley will walk off. I figured as much (lots of experience with 22R/RE, not so with 5VZE), but "I figured" and experience are two very different things!
Thanks again!
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stir_fry_boy
New member
I've gotten away with using a chain wrench and not damaging the pulley by wrapping it in rags. If you don't want to go used, not sure what I would suggest. I was just saying I would trust a used one over Dorman. I agree you need to replace the HB ASAP. While you are at it, get a new crank bolt.
4Ruster
New member
New crank bolt for sure. It's about $5 ... Genuine Toy HB is expensive but at least it offers peace of mind. I just wanted some input (particularly on the HB) and you gave it, thank you!
mckennar
New member
I recently attempted to salvage a crankshaft and HB that had not been properly torqued only 30 miles previously... and the damage to the crank was so bad that even after being torqued to 217 ft lbs with a liberal amount of blue loctite, and with only minor accessory belt tension, it still slips and wobbles and starts to back itself out. After measuring, there's almost a 1/16" taper to the crank snout now, the woodruff key is gone and the keyway itself is gouged significantly enough so that it will not take another key, and that's only after 30 miles.
But that's not my point. My point is, in order to torque it to 217ft lbs I bought an $80 250 ft lb 3/4" drive torque wrench from harbor freight, and $7 worth of materials from home depot.
Link: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/167783-how-make-crank-pulley-holder-$7-no-welder.html
Good luck!
But that's not my point. My point is, in order to torque it to 217ft lbs I bought an $80 250 ft lb 3/4" drive torque wrench from harbor freight, and $7 worth of materials from home depot.
Link: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/167783-how-make-crank-pulley-holder-$7-no-welder.html
Good luck!
4Ruster
New member
Well, I hope I don't find the kind of damage you found ... won't know until I get in there. The HB still seems tight on the crank and the bolt didn't back off, so I think its just the rubber deteriorated, which is allowing the pulleys to appear to be wobbling. Fingers crossed.
I bought a nice torque wrench already so I'm good to go on that front ... Next is buy or fab HB holder, order HB and bolt (genuine Toy). Thanks for the input.
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etc.
Member
Can you post the measurements of all the holes? Center to centers and diameters?
