Crawford Eco Block
- Thread starter Canazes9
- Start date
I think you are a little confused on the function of a Mass Air Flow sensor. Mass / volume are similar units of measure but velocity / speed are totally different and use a different type of sensor to measure it.
Randyman...
New member
Comments?
Velocity is measured at the MAF and then calculated by the ECU which knows the cross-sectional area where the MAF is located (stock location). Velocity, intake cross-section area at the MAF location, and air temp are all taken into account to derive CFM at the ECU. Moving the MAF to a location with different airspeed/velocity (to a different cross-sectional area in the intake tube) will obviously influence the ECU's calculations and resultant calculated CFM.
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The mass calculation, in this case, is dependent on velocity. I'll omit the term "velocity" in hopes of seeing a different answer. I'd be interested in seeing the flow profile testing that must've been performed in order to determine optimum spacer height. I take it no patent information will be shared with the group today?
Sorry, I did not do any form of flow profile testing to determine the optimum spacer height. That particular piece of information would have zero effect on our decision process.
I do not see the relevance in sharing our patent information, will it show / prove the increases that our potential customers are looking for?
Having both liquid and gas volume calculation experience, and understanding how flow profiles (and the point at which those data points are collected from within a flowing stream) are absolutely critical in the accurate determination of volume/mass calculation, I find your first statement quite interesting. Seeing as every single post of yours on this forum is directly related to a piece of equipment that you are obviously associated with, it would give some validity to your claims. If you don't care to validate the equipment that you're associated with, why bother logging in here and taking part in the discussion in the first place? I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people reading this thread have doubts regarding your patent claim...I know that I do. If you do indeed have a patent on this product, sharing that information could only stand to strengthen your case in my humble opinion.
Monkeymenno
New member
Guys, I just went to their website to look at what ever data I could find. There was a little note at the bottom of the page -
"* Please see www.crawfordperformance/ecoblockguarantee for information on returning your Eco Block if you are unsatisfied within the first year. Basic terms and conditions apply including proof of purchase."
There is no link provided and when you enter the text directly to your browser it doesn't take you anywhere - just to google search.
This REEKS of scam. There are no returns. There are no guarantees. Same deal with them not being a vendor on this site. How are you advertising products in the forums on this site without being a vendor? No patents provided upon request because there are no patents. If you follow the event links on their webpage, they are full of broken links. Their event results have not been updated in 5 years.
Not only this, but among their dealer list, every dealer in Canada has a dyno, lots of dealers in the US have dynos. How can there not be data?
The biggest question is this - why wouldn't I just make it myself? It's 5mm thick with 4 holes. Can't be that hard.
Long and the short is that any company serious about doing business would not put together such a shoddy website. And if they are real, do you really want to trust your engine with them considering they cannot keep a website halfway functional?
"* Please see www.crawfordperformance/ecoblockguarantee for information on returning your Eco Block if you are unsatisfied within the first year. Basic terms and conditions apply including proof of purchase."
There is no link provided and when you enter the text directly to your browser it doesn't take you anywhere - just to google search.
This REEKS of scam. There are no returns. There are no guarantees. Same deal with them not being a vendor on this site. How are you advertising products in the forums on this site without being a vendor? No patents provided upon request because there are no patents. If you follow the event links on their webpage, they are full of broken links. Their event results have not been updated in 5 years.
Not only this, but among their dealer list, every dealer in Canada has a dyno, lots of dealers in the US have dynos. How can there not be data?
The biggest question is this - why wouldn't I just make it myself? It's 5mm thick with 4 holes. Can't be that hard.
Long and the short is that any company serious about doing business would not put together such a shoddy website. And if they are real, do you really want to trust your engine with them considering they cannot keep a website halfway functional?
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It's Ok, I actually did not expect you to understand the basics of how to tune an engine. And there are obviously things you know that are unknown to me.
Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses which defines who we are.
Canazes9
New member
He's here because I saw his product being discussed on another site and thought it might be of interest here. I posted the original information and asked Quirt if he would join the discussion. The link as at the beginning of this thread. Please note, I had no initiation / participation in that discussion, it was mostly over by the time I started reading the thread. I must say the members of the other forum were nowhere near as rude as many of the members here have been.
I look forward to seeing pictures of the MAF spacer you make and reading about what gains you make in mileage and/or hp.
David
I'm no expert on Toyota ECU programming, but have a decent general background on ECUs and have seen the outputs from the OBD via Torque app.
Let me see if I've got this right: This device basically 'tricks' the ECU into thinking there is more airflow than actual and the ECU then trims the fuel trims to correct for the error. Once trimmed, the A/F ratio goes back to stock at all points, even WOT. The wideband O2 sensors allows closed loop WOT operation. Thus, the improvements are from the slightly increased load values from the MAF which increases timing and causes the VVT to shift sooner.
eg:
Pre-spacer
2500 rpm, 70 g/sec MAF, 0% LTFT , 20 deg BTDC, 0 degree VVT angle
Post-space
2500 rpm, 80 g/sec MAF*, 15% LTFT, 25 deg BTDC, 5 degree VVT angle
*70 g/sec actual
So you get a few degrees of timing bump and the VVT may begin to shift.
Let me see if I've got this right: This device basically 'tricks' the ECU into thinking there is more airflow than actual and the ECU then trims the fuel trims to correct for the error. Once trimmed, the A/F ratio goes back to stock at all points, even WOT. The wideband O2 sensors allows closed loop WOT operation. Thus, the improvements are from the slightly increased load values from the MAF which increases timing and causes the VVT to shift sooner.
eg:
Pre-spacer
2500 rpm, 70 g/sec MAF, 0% LTFT , 20 deg BTDC, 0 degree VVT angle
Post-space
2500 rpm, 80 g/sec MAF*, 15% LTFT, 25 deg BTDC, 5 degree VVT angle
*70 g/sec actual
So you get a few degrees of timing bump and the VVT may begin to shift.
You equate my questions related to the legitimacy of a product to a lack of understanding of the basics of engine tuning? In addition, you fail to realize that the things that I know are directly related to the things that you claim to know. Not only is your above statement comical in nature, it's elementary at best.
Randyman...
New member
Hmm. Pointing out the fact that the link that Quirt's company posts on their OWN WEBSITE for RETURNS is broken = Rude? (then, the "Return" link is not even setup as an HTTP link - you have to physically copy/paste it - very likely done on purpose to hide the fact the returns page doesn't even exist IMNSHO).
That is sinking in. Also was not aware we remain closed loop at WOT. I was looking at it from a "Less Airflow/CFM" stance (backwards). I must say in the face of what is transpiring here, I'm learning about our ECU's in the process.
Thanks for that aspect of this thread! :bravo:
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You are on the correct path... but a little skewed.
More air flow would necessitate more fuel to maintain the desired air fuel ratio, so our Eco Block actually makes the ECU think there is "less" air flow so less fuel will be injected per cycle.
Randyman...
New member
OK - So I wasn't backwards afterall!
Quirt:
What is the deal with this link as posted on your website:
http://www.crawfordperformance/ecoblockguarantee
It does not work. Please explain this...
Actualy - I was able to get to that page by adding ".com":
http://crawfordperformance.com/ecoblockguarantee/
As you were...
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I haven't done much WOT in our 4Runner, but I've towed and seen the lambda drop to 0.85 or so while staying in closed loop. It's possible the ECU goes open under WOT, but I'd want to see proof before believing. Shouldn't be too hard to see. Log the "Fuel System Status" PID during a WOT run and see if it changes from closed or not. I've only seen open loop during warm-up and during decel (injector cutoff).That is sinking in. Also was not aware we remain closed loop at WOT. I was looking at it from a "Less Airflow/CFM" stance (backwards). I must say in the face of what is transpiring here, I'm learning about our ECU's in the process.
Yeah, herp derp. Sign error.
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Canazes9
New member
Hmm. Pointing out the fact that the link that Quirt's company posts on their OWN WEBSITE for RETURNS is broken = Rude? (then, the "Return" link is not even setup as an HTTP link - you have to physically copy/paste it - very likely done on purpose to hide the fact the returns page doesn't even exist IMNSHO).
That is sinking in. Also was not aware we remain closed loop at WOT. I was looking at it from a "Less Airflow/CFM" stance (backwards). I must say in the face of what is transpiring here, I'm learning about our ECU's in the process.
No Randyman, comments like "reeks of scam", "there is no gurantee", "advertising your product on this site without being a vendor", etc. that I find rude. I'm dumbfounded at the ignorance on display here and how many members seem to think Crawford Performance is some fly by night outfit making parts in their basement.
Apparently google fu isn't something that many members have mastered yet. Let me help, might want to pay attention at the 43 second mark before you enjoy the rest of the video:
Ken Block Gymkhana II (Subaru Impreza WRX STI '08, 566 hp) - YouTube
It's not often that you get to ask people like Quirt questions. I'm interested in what he has to say.
David
Thank you David... I gave up on forums long ago because of the rudeness from the Trolls and their better than thou attitude.
There is a wise saying that goes something like this "respect is earned, not given"
1engineer
Moderator
C'mon David,
I'm sure Quirt experiences the same thing I experience whenever he is presenting a concept to a new audience. Engineers always get the "disbelief" and "non trusting" comments to begin with. It's a cycle. If done correctly by the end of the day you have buy in from your audience. If not done correctly you will have skepticism and disbelief. I have done so many of these types of presentations I lost count years ago. Quirt is older than me so he probably knows the ropes more than I do.
You don't talk to people like Quirt (or me in my world) because you don't usually have our phone number and when we are allowed out in public we usually have a handler to fix our f ups because we aren't the best when it comes to crowds. Or public. Or communication.
These guys are skeptical, as am I. If I learned nothing in my life I learned in Thermo that nothing is free. Nothing. Not efficiency, not power, nothing. When something is too good to be true it usually is. Offering a $40 part that takes two minutes to install and will give you more efficiency and power with no side effects qualifies as too good so you are gonna have to prove it.
Quirt should answer all questions with a smile until those potential buyers are satisfied. Some will never be satisfied but they won't buy one either.
Now, if you think these guys are rude you should be in meetings I am in every day. This is child's play. Quirt, tell him what would happen if you were presenting a white paper to a SAE committee. This is easy.
My only disclaimer is this (and any general forum) has people who couldn't understand the proper terms nor can they even ask the right questions. That's a problem but when selling to the masses you must have a clear message for the masses.
Lastly Ken Block's car has nothing to do with my 4Runner. He needed to go fast for a short period of time. I need to go slow for a long time. Two completely different applications. I understand Crawford Engineering has a good reputation with good engineering. So does Toyota.
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Engineer
New member
I did a 3min search of the US patent data base but wasn’t having any luck finding anything......was not really sure what to look for. No one is trying to be rude (well maybe some are....) but we have heard nothing but theory and claims without proof of something that looks, sounds and smells like snake oil (have you seen the product package, looks just like late night infomercial). Anyone with a head on their shoulders knows that if it looks, sounds and smells like a snake it normally is and you should go above and beyond the normal inquiry before reaching in and touching. Anyone selling or supporting this product has got to see that there is going to be major pushback/disbelief.
Tacoma owners reporting fuel mileage increases is not proof, that is far from a controlled test....granted in most situations we talk about on here, how fast does my heater warm up, or how long can I idle for we/I am not nearly as critical but it goes back to my snake oil comment above (the extra diligence, that is coming across as being rude)
Yes, it is un likely I will be installing one of these regardless of what is posted but this is an online forum where people are free to express opinions and ask questions and as everything that has been posted so far from what I can tell has been on topic.”
I am sure that Crawford Performance believes in their product but does not mean that claims are real. That said half of the modifications or more I have done to my truck will likely have more of a long term impact (negative) then installing this spacer. I don’t think the truck will explode, but I also don’t think we will see a 5-7% power gain along with improved MPG. We are all interested in actual data not theory of how it works and have asked for it since the beginning, so far no actual testing results or data, dyno graphs, design specs, patent #’s etc. It would be nieve to expect anything less from such an excellent group of human beings , [MENTION=81573]Stifler[/MENTION] excluded
Tacoma owners reporting fuel mileage increases is not proof, that is far from a controlled test....granted in most situations we talk about on here, how fast does my heater warm up, or how long can I idle for we/I am not nearly as critical but it goes back to my snake oil comment above (the extra diligence, that is coming across as being rude)
Yes, it is un likely I will be installing one of these regardless of what is posted but this is an online forum where people are free to express opinions and ask questions and as everything that has been posted so far from what I can tell has been on topic.”
I am sure that Crawford Performance believes in their product but does not mean that claims are real. That said half of the modifications or more I have done to my truck will likely have more of a long term impact (negative) then installing this spacer. I don’t think the truck will explode, but I also don’t think we will see a 5-7% power gain along with improved MPG. We are all interested in actual data not theory of how it works and have asked for it since the beginning, so far no actual testing results or data, dyno graphs, design specs, patent #’s etc. It would be nieve to expect anything less from such an excellent group of human beings , [MENTION=81573]Stifler[/MENTION] excluded
Canazes9
New member
[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] / [MENTION=96008]Engineer[/MENTION],
Certainly wasn't directing my comments at you. Being skeptical, asking questions, etc - 100% knew that was going to happen and expected it. I actually thought this was the type of discussion that ya'll would enjoy.
Skepticism can be expressed and questions raised/asked without throwing feces. I'm surprise he has stayed in the discussion this far. Exactly how much money do you think he stands to make if every person that posted in this thread buys one? It ain't a big number...
You don't accept increased mileage numbers from the Tacoma World members? Why not? Certainly I understand the potential for bias if the results were mixed, but every person that has tried one and posted results (including people that were highly skeptical) have said it increased mileage. You think there's some kind of mass hypnosis taking place on the other forum?
David
Certainly wasn't directing my comments at you. Being skeptical, asking questions, etc - 100% knew that was going to happen and expected it. I actually thought this was the type of discussion that ya'll would enjoy.
Skepticism can be expressed and questions raised/asked without throwing feces. I'm surprise he has stayed in the discussion this far. Exactly how much money do you think he stands to make if every person that posted in this thread buys one? It ain't a big number...
You don't accept increased mileage numbers from the Tacoma World members? Why not? Certainly I understand the potential for bias if the results were mixed, but every person that has tried one and posted results (including people that were highly skeptical) have said it increased mileage. You think there's some kind of mass hypnosis taking place on the other forum?
David
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