Crawford Eco Block

[wfo9]

Pretty much every ECU operates in the same general way, Toyota is no different. The window dressing may differ, but the core ideas stay the same.

The front O2s are wideband, but a narrow wideband - if that makes any sense. From logging, I've found their range is ~0.8 lambda to 1.2 lambda. A true WB sensor runs ~0.5 to 1.5 lambda. Since the WOT lambdas drop below 0.8, the truck must run open loop, which I've verified while driving.

I'm well aware of how ECUs operate in general, but they also each have their own little nuances that can make a huge difference in the final pulse widths and advances. Something as simple as Cat over temp correction could have you chasing your tail all day long. How about Torqe mgt..... There is also VVT-i to consider here. My point is one additional feature changes the entire system equation and these vary greatly by mfg and engine.

Back when I was doing this stuff on a daily basis, WB feedback was pretty much out of reach for all but dedicated race applications. That quickly changed as the sensor and driver electronics became affordable. ECUs were several years behind this. Factory ECUs were limited to narrowband on/off switching. Which made any type of closed loop feedback impossible at WOT. A WB input to the ECU with a direct vs calculated Lambda would change everything.

Also not sure where you come up with .5 - 1.5 for WB (that is a really wide range). You could close loop feedback any motor with .6 - 1.2. and .8 would be fine for NA if it was accurate and fast enough.

Below .08? That is ridiculous on a NA motor. That would most likely be some serious power being left on the table. Just more evidence pointing to Toyota being extremely conservative and putting that well above efficiency.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

...

The second down stream sensor is there to tell the ECU the condition of the cat only.
...

This is somewhat correct, the reality is the rear O2 sensor has a lot of power over fuel fuel trim despite most manufacturers saying otherwise; this is evidenced through experimentation and watching TFT (Total Fuel Trim) numbers and calculating them along with STFT and LTFT. Sort of a little dirty secret of the way these systems work. You'd be surprised how much control the rear O2 has on some OBDII vehicles.

 

[Quirt]

This just came out yesterday, it's one of the cars we have tuned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zHaZAWLWdohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zHaZAWLWdo

 

[DEERUNNER]

This just came out yesterday, it's one of the cars we have tuned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zHaZAWLWdohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zHaZAWLWdo

Awesome car and video Quirt! Does it have a CEB installed? And is it getting better MPG? ACP did not seem at all concerned about MPG. Bad dog.

 

[mo_mo]

Seems like this thread keeps getting sidetracked onto non Toyota 4Runner 5th Gen Eco Block discussions. I'll try to bring it back on topic and I'm certain this will get burried under a few more subaru posts. Man if only subaru had their own forum with threads and stuff. How cool would that be?

I've attached a pdf showing what the OBDII port will output for both fuel trims and O2 sensors on a 2014 4Runner with a TRD intake. Note that items with a "(*.1)" were multiplied by .1 to condense the graphs visually (in hindsight this didn't need to be done on the 1st and 2nd charts but I'm lazy and not going to fix them). I apologize for the coarseness of the data and my sloppy labelling.

For whatever reason throttle does not measure out to 100%. It maxes at 82%. You'll either have to verify this yourself or trust that I was able to put the skinny pedal to the floor. I'm thinking about cutting a hole in my floorboard for that extra 18%. Thoughts?

Each chart has throttle and rpm. Rpm is the only item listed against the vertical axis on the right. The x axis is time in minutes:seconds

The first chart shows the short term trims fluctuate a lot and go to zero when throttle is applied (open loop). No news there.

The second chart shows the long term trims being relatively stable but active under all throttle conditions (idle, partial load, WOT). It appears that the bank 1 trim is not at the upper and lower bounds since the bank 2 extends beyond it at both ends. This just a guess but Toyota could have designed the upper and lower bounds differently from bank 1 to bank 2 but I doubt it, and I also don't think the long term trims are at their limits otherwise I would probably be getting a CEL.

The third chart verifies the limits of the OEM wideband O2 sensors (at least as reported to the OBDII). Both the O2 sensors max at 1.233 and min at .813. The commanded lambda is a bit more complicated and by definition is clipped to be no more than 1. Commanded lambda hits .667 during WOT upshifts and then ranges from about .73 to .80. I believe commanded lambda is what the ecu is attempting to achieve with the data available by applying the trims during this run. Looking at the two part throttle blips at about 17 and 30 seconds and at the tail end, you'll notice that the long term trims are active and that the wideband O2 sensors are well within their measurement range. This allows the sensors under regular driving to maintain the correct air fuel ratio even in open loop. There may be some inaccuracy during WOT but in general any modifications done to the intake will be adequately addressed during regular driving by the ECU. Perhaps if someone installed an ecoblock and immediately went to WOT then the system might be leaned out never given a chance to learn.

 

[Hellamatic]

Man, can't we just go back to talking about whether or not 285s will rub or if FJ parts fit?

 

[Darryle]

Okay, I have 5 tanks thru the truck since I recalibrated the Ultra Gauge. On fuel ups, the calibration has always been within 1/10 of a gallon on a 15+ gallon refill. Fuel mileage average has been 20.654 on the last 5 fuel ups with a total of 1637.10 miles driven.

I am confident that I am averaging well above 1 mpg better since the Eco Block has been installed.

 

[viking-777]

thanks everyone for your input, you all know much more about how this works than I do. however, here are my unscientific actuals thus far in case it helps anyone.

installed the eco block at 3/4 tank, reset counters, and got ~14.8 'city' until took on the hwy. one 50 mile round trip upped that to 18.1 (my pre-eco block mostly hwy average). reset counters on next full tank, and am getting a solid 16.3 city thus far, no hwy miles. I have seen posts saying initially mpg went down, and then up with the eco block, and that may be what's happening to me. I'm a low volume driver so my updates will be few and far between. bought this for potential HP gains as much as mpg gains. butt dyno readings? unsure. possibly a hair better, possibly placebo effect, I'm fine with either for now. no check engine lights thus far.

 

[Quirt]

Awesome car and video Quirt! Does it have a CEB installed? And is it getting better MPG? ACP did not seem at all concerned about MPG. Bad dog.

It had a CEB years ago before the turbo got installed, after that I had to go in and convince the naturally aspirated ECU that it was in fact for a turbo application.

The MPG is quite good when it is not making boost and only making 150hp or so, but when making boost it does consume some extra fuel to make the 500hp. This car is a hoot to drive!!

 

[Quirt]

thanks everyone for your input, you all know much more about how this works than I do. however, here are my unscientific actuals thus far in case it helps anyone.

installed the eco block at 3/4 tank, reset counters, and got ~14.8 'city' until took on the hwy. one 50 mile round trip upped that to 18.1 (my pre-eco block mostly hwy average). reset counters on next full tank, and am getting a solid 16.3 city thus far, no hwy miles. I have seen posts saying initially mpg went down, and then up with the eco block, and that may be what's happening to me. I'm a low volume driver so my updates will be few and far between. bought this for potential HP gains as much as mpg gains. butt dyno readings? unsure. possibly a hair better, possibly placebo effect, I'm fine with either for now. no check engine lights thus far.

Thanks for the info / update

 

[Quirt]

Okay, I have 5 tanks thru the truck since I recalibrated the Ultra Gauge. On fuel ups, the calibration has always been within 1/10 of a gallon on a 15+ gallon refill. Fuel mileage average has been 20.654 on the last 5 fuel ups with a total of 1637.10 miles driven.

I am confident that I am averaging well above 1 mpg better since the Eco Block has been installed.

Thanks for the update as well, keep them coming good or bad.

 

[flounder1]

I will tell you what. You send me one for free and I will run on my torque pro with my 2011 stock sr5. I drive about 4000 miles a month. I know what I get out of every tank. I can use for a full month and give a real world review. I currently get 20.5 miles to the gallon and I know how to cheat the pumps and my tank to make sure it truly fills up. I can watch intake temps and also my mav gauges to see influxes. Its your call if you want to sell these things I will help you out with putting this to the test for real. I drive from Philadelphia to Baltimore at least 2 times a week. The most I got out of a tank was 500 miles keep in mind that was drafting 18 wheelers from Philly to Pittsburgh. Just this week I got 470 miles out of a tank driving to Corning ny.
I average 430 miles to a full tank. By the way the most amount of gallons I have put in the truck is 25.5 gallons. I usually am putting 22 gallons every 2 to 3 days. I will even check plugs each week to see any dentation problems.

YOUR CALL TO END ALL OF THIS MADNESS. pm if you want.:50cal:

 

[Quirt]

I will tell you what. You send me one for free and I will run on my torque pro with my 2011 stock sr5. I drive about 4000 miles a month. I know what I get out of every tank. I can use for a full month and give a real world review. I currently get 20.5 miles to the gallon and I know how to cheat the pumps and my tank to make sure it truly fills up. I can watch intake temps and also my mav gauges to see influxes. Its your call if you want to sell these things I will help you out with putting this to the test for real. I drive from Philadelphia to Baltimore at least 2 times a week. The most I got out of a tank was 500 miles keep in mind that was drafting 18 wheelers from Philly to Pittsburgh. Just this week I got 470 miles out of a tank driving to Corning ny.
I average 430 miles to a full tank. By the way the most amount of gallons I have put in the truck is 25.5 gallons. I usually am putting 22 gallons every 2 to 3 days. I will even check plugs each week to see any dentation problems.

YOUR CALL TO END ALL OF THIS MADNESS. pm if you want.:50cal:

Can this madness end this easy?? Maybe I should buy you a few tanks of fuel as well The haters will never stop hating... it's ingrained into their blood.

Send me your address and we will gladly send you test unit. Thanks for reaching out with this offer!

 

[1engineer]

I will tell you what. You send me one for free and I will run on my torque pro with my 2011 stock sr5. I drive about 4000 miles a month. I know what I get out of every tank. I can use for a full month and give a real world review. I currently get 20.5 miles to the gallon and I know how to cheat the pumps and my tank to make sure it truly fills up. I can watch intake temps and also my mav gauges to see influxes. Its your call if you want to sell these things I will help you out with putting this to the test for real. I drive from Philadelphia to Baltimore at least 2 times a week. The most I got out of a tank was 500 miles keep in mind that was drafting 18 wheelers from Philly to Pittsburgh. Just this week I got 470 miles out of a tank driving to Corning ny.
I average 430 miles to a full tank. By the way the most amount of gallons I have put in the truck is 25.5 gallons. I usually am putting 22 gallons every 2 to 3 days. I will even check plugs each week to see any dentation problems.

YOUR CALL TO END ALL OF THIS MADNESS. pm if you want.:50cal:

Can this madness end this easy?? Maybe I should buy you a few tanks of fuel as well The haters will never stop hating... it's ingrained into their blood.

Send me your address and we will gladly send you test unit. Thanks for reaching out with this offer!

I'll even help out. If [MENTION=75851]flounder1[/MENTION] will agree to send me fuel fill ups, odometer readings and dates to me I will track the data and put them into a usable format with some type of trailing average over time. Run without it for a month, plot the data and superimpose the following month's data with the spacer installed. I will publish here. This would be strictly an efficiency comparison.

 

[rydr1]

This is going to get interesting.

[MENTION=75851]flounder1[/MENTION], how did you get 25.5Gal in the truck? Was the nose of the truck down? did the pump click off on you a few time?

500 miles on a tank is impressive, maybe not the safest method you got going, but it works.

 

[mo_mo]

[MENTION=121742]Quirt[/MENTION] since this is your test would you mind sharing what parameters you would like [MENTION=75851]flounder1[/MENTION] to monitor? Do you have pass-fail criteria in mind for each parameter to show validity or your claims? What is the minimum acceptable data that flounder1 must collect to give meet the pass-fail criteria? :thanks:
[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] just some reading material of mpg variation in controlled environments:
http://www.epa.gov/smartway/forpartners/documents/sae-reports/evaluating-fuel-economy.pdf
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/pdfs/2876.pdf
I found a few other references but don’t have them in front of me. Going from memory here, but even in controlled environments mpg variability ranges from about 7-11%.

Looking forward to the results!

 

[Saker]

I'll even help out. If [MENTION=75851]flounder1[/MENTION] will agree to send me fuel fill ups, odometer readings and dates to me I will track the data and put them into a usable format with some type of trailing average over time. Run without it for a month, plot the data and superimpose the following month's data with the spacer installed. I will publish here. This would be strictly an efficiency comparison.

Suggestion.....
Parameter for real world testing: No drafting of 18 wheelers (at all during test phase)

just sayin'

 

[1engineer]

[MENTION=121742]Quirt[/MENTION] since this is your test would you mind sharing what parameters you would like [MENTION=75851]flounder1[/MENTION] to monitor? Do you have pass-fail criteria in mind for each parameter to show validity or your claims? What is the minimum acceptable data that flounder1 must collect to give meet the pass-fail criteria? :thanks:

[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] just some reading material of mpg variation in controlled environments:
http://www.epa.gov/smartway/forpartners/documents/sae-reports/evaluating-fuel-economy.pdf
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/pdfs/2876.pdf
I found a few other references but don’t have them in front of me. Going from memory here, but even in controlled environments mpg variability ranges from about 7-11%.

Looking forward to the results!

Time and distance have a habit of evening things out lol
Even drafting is OK because a delta is the only data that would be applicable for this test of one vehicle. What he gets as far as mpg is is irrelevant because of too many variables. The difference between what he gets over time before and after he adds the spacer is what will be relevant data for everyone. Especially if he drives several thousand miles over the same route in both conditions.

 

[mo_mo]

Time and distance have a habit of evening things out lol
Even drafting is OK because a delta is the only data that would be applicable for this test of one vehicle. What he gets as far as mpg is is irrelevant because of too many variables. The difference between what he gets over time before and after he adds the spacer is what will be relevant data for everyone. Especially if he drives several thousand miles over the same route in both conditions.

Figures 5 & 6 would disagree with the assumption that time and distance will even everything out

http://www.epa.gov/smartway/forpartners/documents/sae-reports/evaluating-fuel-economy.pdf

Those error bands are quite large. Thousands of miles still won't account for the slew of variations that will creep into this type of measurement. Tolerances are a pain! Here's one of many sites that just scratches the surface of why MPG typically improves during warming months:
http://www.topspeedracer.com/better-gas-mileage-in-summer-than-winter.html
Are these variables controlled by time and distance in the proposed test? I don't believe so. There are other things that can be measured to show the functionality or lack thereof of the eco block and we would be better served monitoring those.

 

[Quirt]

I'll even help out. If [MENTION=75851]flounder1[/MENTION] will agree to send me fuel fill ups, odometer readings and dates to me I will track the data and put them into a usable format with some type of trailing average over time. Run without it for a month, plot the data and superimpose the following month's data with the spacer installed. I will publish here. This would be strictly an efficiency comparison.

Thanks for your offer to help out with compiling the data from Flounder. If you like we can send you one as well for your efforts, this would also give you some first hand impressions of before and after install.