Damage using tie-down loops during a recovery?

This has already been beat to death.

they are 14mm dia rod each side would have a cross sectional area of just under 0.25 square inches. If they are made of basic mild steel typically known as "A36" (ultimate tensile strength of 58,000-80,000lbs) they have a tensile strength at the conservative end of 58,000 x 0.25 or 14,500lbs. That's for each side of the loop. When you pull on it, you spread the load to both sides evenly in a straight forward pull. So you're approximately 29,000lbs of ultimate tensile strength in a straight line pull. That's assuming mild steel. If they're any of the higher strength steel materials it could easily be double that. I have to assume low carbon steel given that I have no idea what it is.

It's very hard to model exactly what kind of force you'll actually apply with a tow strap. I don't love them because you rely on imprecise loads and rely heavily on shock loads that are often dangerous. That's why a winch is almost always my first choice.

Normally I'd like at least a safety factor of 2, but that's not always realistic in these situations. To put the loads into a little perspective -
* a loaded 4runner is rarely over 6000lbs.
*The synthetic rope on my 9500lb winch is rated for 17,500lbs.
*Most winch mounts are attached to the front frame flange by 8 8mm bolts. Each bolt has a rated thread tearout strength of about 16kn (3,597 lbs). The entire winch mount has a tearout strength of around 28,700lbs. About the same as one of those tie down hoops. (My winch has tie plates that also run back to the mounting points that the recovery points proposed in this thread use - so it's stronger than some, but it's probably overkill. I'm overly cautious.)
*if you hit the end of a tow strap at 20mph, depending on ton of factors including the strap its self, you could easily exceed 100,000lbs of force and break almost anything including the frame its self. There is no tow hook that would withstand some types of abuse. Use a snatch strap if possible to dampen the forces, and start small. If you need 3 or 5 attempts to get unstuck - that's totally fine. Go a little harder each time rather than just flooring it on the first shot. It's always easier to spend an extra 5 minutes to get safely unstuck than trying to figure out how to get unbroken.

The "rated" recovery points are usually made from 1/2" steel plate in some 50 series material. That material has a higher yield point (- it resists bending more) but basically the same (or sometimes lower) ultimate tensile strength (when it actually fractures). The cross sectional area of the final loop they make is usually 1/2x1/2 or... 0.25 square inches. Meaning they have relatively similar ultimate tensile strength and tearout properties as your OEM recovery point.

What they DONT have is a comparably strong connection to the frame. The OEM points are welded in 4 locations that spread the loading to the frame bracket. The aftermarket ones are bolted through only 2 or sometimes 3 points with relatively small weldnuts holding them in place. In a sideways pull on the front end - that's not uncommon in my experience - you now are putting significant leverage against the first bolt forward on that recovery point. There's a good chance it will fail. It's much weaker than the OEM recover point in that orientation. That's where you'll have potential to damage your vehicle or hurt someone.

The OEM points are strong enough for me. I would save your $ for a winch instead of spending a bunch of $ on something that is marginally stronger in a direct forward pull and significantly weaker in side loads.

If any of the aftermarket sellers are claiming that the factory loops are dangerous or insufficient - they are lying to you to try to sell you something you don't need. If you want shiny red farkle - only you can decide if it's worth it or not. But in the real world, even if you have both, you should probably still use the loops. They're better.

Jet great post as usual. Another point, ive seen some of the aftermarket recovery pieces shipping with low grade fasteners such as Grade 5 or less. That and how they are mounted compared to the factory hoops seems like the aftermarket could let go sooner than the factory hoops.

Whats your thoughts on welding additional hoop to the current hoop to just thicken it to increase hopefully the lateral loads, which I think maybe be its weakest link during a hard pull.
 
Jetboy, Thanks for that effortful and informative analysis.

This has already been beat to death.
Yes, I know. In the original post I indicated that I was only looking for replies from folks who have actually experienced damage. I did that specifically to avoid the circular and repetitive arguments that I knew would ensue if I had asked the more generic question “Are the front loops strong enough.” And yet here we are, 25 post in. That’s okay though. Some of the posts have presented information I didn’t know. Including yours.

Haha. I hade to look that one up!

The most salient feature of this thread is that no one has (yet) reported damage as a result of using the factory loops.

Edited to add: Where did you come up with 14mm? My calipers say 0.645 inches, which is closer to 16mm. I can imagine the steel rod deforming when it was bent into a loop, but not 2+mm worth.
 
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Well, I don't like to talk about it, but I suffered damage to my psyche, because I had to resort to using the factory loops, because I lacked the tacti-cool overland recovery points.
 
Jetboy, Thanks for that effortful and informative analysis.


Yes, I know. In the original post I indicated that I was only looking for replies from folks who have actually experienced damage. I did that specifically to avoid the circular and repetitive arguments that I knew would ensue if I had asked the more generic question “Are the front loops strong enough.” And yet here we are, 25 post in. That’s okay though. Some of the posts have presented information I didn’t know. Including yours.
I think your thread brought up many important and interesting questions and answers. In the end, as I previously stated, I would be surprised if anyone had a problem with the factory D-rings. Only if the recovery was done improperly, which unfortunately happens, I think everyone would use them and not worry if they had to and didn’t have a better or easier option.
 
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Jetboy, Thanks for that effortful and informative analysis.


Yes, I know. In the original post I indicated that I was only looking for replies from folks who have actually experienced damage. I did that specifically to avoid the circular and repetitive arguments that I knew would ensue if I had asked the more generic question “Are the front loops strong enough.” And yet here we are, 25 post in. That’s okay though. Some of the posts have presented information I didn’t know. Including yours.


Haha. I hade to look that one up!

The most salient feature of this thread is that no one has (yet) reported damage as a result of using the factory loops.

Edited to add: Where did you come up with 14mm? My calipers say 0.645 inches, which is closer to 16mm. I can imagine the steel rod deforming when it was bent into a loop, but not 2+mm worth.

I skipped to page 2. Doh.

I think it's somewhat an academic question - because basically everyone who would use them hard enough to cause damage has a winch by that point. And the winch is what you'll actually use in the field. I've only ever seen one broken front loop online - and that was due to a hard collision with a rock. Not from pulling on it. And IIRC it was an FJCruiser not a 4Runner. I don't think you'll find any examples of a failure from pulling on them.

I have also seen a few examples of a 4th gen failure - usually where the frame had rusted so badly that it tore the frame away. I have also seen an example of a 4th gen where it was pulled on so violently that it bent the front frame and radiator support cross beam - but it didn't damage the loop or break the welds. I'm not sure how hard they hit the end of the strap - but it was pretty hard! Those were also a different design with the rod welded to the bottom of the radiator support area vs the 5th gen that is run through the frame and welded on both sides.

I don't recall if I measured it or what with. I don't own a 5th gen right now, but I doubt that they've changed. Although Toyota makes slight subtle changes at times - like the mounting bolts for the brake calipers have changed during the 5th gen for some unknown reason.
 
Jet great post as usual. Another point, ive seen some of the aftermarket recovery pieces shipping with low grade fasteners such as Grade 5 or less. That and how they are mounted compared to the factory hoops seems like the aftermarket could let go sooner than the factory hoops.

Whats your thoughts on welding additional hoop to the current hoop to just thicken it to increase hopefully the lateral loads, which I think maybe be its weakest link during a hard pull.

I would just use it as-is. I suspect the weak part would be the frame rail. If you pulled to failure, I'd guess it would first bend the frame and then ultimately tear out the frame metal before the loop fails. I'd have a hard time seeing how you'd do that under normal conditions. I think you'd be into the realm of pulling so violently that you're going to destroy the vehicle.

But - you could probably improve the strength if you wanted to by reinforcing that frame location somehow. If you wanted to go crazy you could make a reinforcement plate for the front frame rail that is welded onto the front frame to reinforce the radiator support area of the frame that it's mounted into and either integrate a tow hook as part of it or have it tie into that loop.

It may be overthinking it a little though. A kinetic strap is all you need to make sure you don't have a massive shock load on it. Or a winch. Almost universally where you'll see damage is a regular tow strap or a chain combined with the pulling vehicle going wide open to the end of the strap and then having the giant shock load. Don't do that and I think you'll be pretty safe.


I do think it would be a fun experiment to buy a front half of a frame from a junk yard and build device to use a controlled test to see what the failure point really is. I'm a long way away from all of my tools right now. But I'm thinking something like a heavy beam where you would attach one front frame rail side with the OEM loop at one end and one of the aftermarket "rated" tow points to the other facing each other. Then use a hydraulic cylinder to pull one against the other until one of them fails and see which one fails first. My money is on the "rated" tow point either sheering the mounting bolts or tear out of the weld-nuts failing first. If you pull sideways - I think the loop is probably an order of magnitude stronger and that would not be even close.
 
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I would just use it as-is. I suspect the weak part would be the frame rail. If you pulled to failure, I'd guess it would first bend the frame and then ultimately tear out the frame metal before the loop fails. I'd have a hard time seeing how you'd do that under normal conditions. I think you'd be into the realm of pulling so violently that you're going to destroy the vehicle.

But - you could probably improve the strength if you wanted to by reinforcing that frame location somehow. If you wanted to go crazy you could make a reinforcement plate for the front frame rail that is welded onto the front frame to reinforce the radiator support area of the frame that it's mounted into and either integrate a tow hook as part of it or have it tie into that loop.

It may be overthinking it a little though. A kinetic strap is all you need to make sure you don't have a massive shock load on it. Or a winch. Almost universally where you'll see damage is a regular tow strap or a chain combined with the pulling vehicle going wide open to the end of the strap and then having the giant shock load. Don't do that and I think you'll be pretty safe.


I do think it would be a fun experiment to buy a front half of a frame from a junk yard and build device to use a controlled test to see what the failure point really is. I'm a long way away from all of my tools right now. But I'm thinking something like a heavy beam where you would attach one front frame rail side with the OEM loop at one end and one of the aftermarket "rated" tow points to the other facing each other. Then use a hydraulic cylinder to pull one against the other until one of them fails and see which one fails first. My money is on the "rated" tow point either sheering the mounting bolts or tear out of the weld-nuts failing first. If you pull sideways - I think the loop is probably an order of magnitude stronger and that would not be even close.

Understood, makes sense. For me the issue is that I am having a hard time sourcing a winch that will fit a Limited other than the tow receiver kind.

Any ideas on this? Would rather not have to do the complete front end swap to a TRail or SR5.

Or you figure if I got winch with hitch mount its good enough? Wondered about pulling out to the rear vs. forward. So far ive just used the hoops and the hitch with shackle to drag a few light cars out of the crud.. one guy even gave me a case of beer (king cans to so as not to be cheap!!!)

:party:
 
Understood, makes sense. For me the issue is that I am having a hard time sourcing a winch that will fit a Limited other than the tow receiver kind.

Any ideas on this? Would rather not have to do the complete front end swap to a TRail or SR5.

Or you figure if I got winch with hitch mount its good enough? Wondered about pulling out to the rear vs. forward. So far ive just used the hoops and the hitch with shackle to drag a few light cars out of the crud.. one guy even gave me a case of beer (king cans to so as not to be cheap!!!)

:party:

I don't have any issues with a hitch mounted winch. I've had two of them over the years. I used one for many years on my 3rd gen 4Runner. And it's what I currently have on my Tundra. Works great. The biggest downside is that they stick out a ways and depending on your terrain you might have issues with hitting it on stuff a lot. And they're heavy to haul around when you're not using it. On my Tundra it sits too low to be practical for any technical trails. I drag it on stuff all the time if I leave it in, but it's pulled that big old girl out of some pretty crappy situations that I'd have been really screwed otherwise. The hitch mount for the 4Runner is a lot better than the Tundra as far as that goes.

It is nice to be able to pull either direction. That's a big bonus on the hitch mount.

A hidden winch mount could be an option, but I don't know what's out there for a Limited bumper. I'd guess there's plenty of space to actually fit the winch. But you may end up having to have some custom fab done for that. Not sure on the Limited.
 
I skipped to page 2. Doh.
Then maybe you missed the video link in post 12? It’s a comparison of kinetic ropes. They’re tested on a 4Runner with the rear end buried to the frame in sand. The rope is connected to a recovery point on the winch bumper, which flexes a lot during the pull. Have a look. Made me raise my eyebrows. It’s a good thing your winch ties back to the frame.
 
Then maybe you missed the video link in post 12? It’s a comparison of kinetic ropes. They’re tested on a 4Runner with the rear end buried to the frame in sand. The rope is connected to a recovery point on the winch bumper, which flexes a lot during the pull. Have a look. Made me raise my eyebrows. It’s a good thing your winch ties back to the frame.

That is not confidence inspiring. Not a great location for the tow loops on that bumper. Move those down in-line with the frame mounts. I wouldn't want to put much force on those. Based on that video - I think you'd bend or rip that bumper off if you pulled hard on it. And it looks really flexible.

The video reminded me why I prefer straps over ropes. Not because they're better for pulling - they're just a lot easier to store because they roll up nicely in a coil. They both work the same for pulling. I mean - there's a lot of arguments about them, but it's the same fibers in both. It's just a question of what the profile they make them in.
 
The video reminded me why I prefer straps over ropes. Not because they're better for pulling - they're just a lot easier to store because they roll up nicely in a coil. They both work the same for pulling.
Kinetic ropes are new since I bought recovery gear years ago and I’ve never used them. But the sine wave vs. square wave proposition seemed reasonable to me when I heard it. Why do you consider them interchangeable?

FWIW, I keep ropes in a bag.
 
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Kinetic ropes are new since I bought recovery gear years ago and I’ve never used them. But the sine wave vs. square wave proposition seemed reasonable to me when I heard it. Why do you consider them interchangeable?

FWIW, I keep ropes in a bag.

Not to mention the kinetic ropes stretch more than the snatch straps do so they’re a lot easier on the vehicles involved from a shock load standpoint.
 
Not to mention the kinetic ropes stretch more than the snatch straps do so they’re a lot easier on the vehicles involved from a shock load standpoint.

any good brands of kinetic rope that you would recommend that is reasonable to the wallet?

thanks
 
Kinetic ropes are new since I bought recovery gear years ago and I’ve never used them. But the sine wave vs. square wave proposition seemed reasonable to me when I heard it. Why do you consider them interchangeable?

FWIW, I keep ropes in a bag.

I'm not sure what a sine vs square wave means or how it applies here.

Both straps and rope have fibers in a weave. If both use the same fiber with the same tensile strength and elasticity they'll behave the same under similar loads. It doesn't matter to the fiber if the bundle is rectangular or cylindrical. The only advantage I see for the rope is the protective outer weave. And the ropes sometimes are longer. The flat profile of the strap rolls nicely into half the volume. For me that's a big benefit given how infrequently I use a strap. With a winch I just don't ever get out a strap unless I'm pulling a dead vehicle or I need it to wrap around something too big for a tree saver.
 
I'm not sure what a sine vs square wave means or how it applies here.

Both straps and rope have fibers in a weave. If both use the same fiber with the same tensile strength and elasticity they'll behave the same under similar loads. It doesn't matter to the fiber if the bundle is rectangular or cylindrical. The only advantage I see for the rope is the protective outer weave. And the ropes sometimes are longer. The flat profile of the strap rolls nicely into half the volume. For me that's a big benefit given how infrequently I use a strap. With a winch I just don't ever get out a strap unless I'm pulling a dead vehicle or I need it to wrap around something too big for a tree saver.

If they were both made of the same materials, I’d agree but they’re not and the construction differences lend to the ropes being about 50% stretchier than straps: most snatch straps quote a ~20% stretch while ropes tend to say they stretch ~30%.

Ropes are easy to maintain and can be tossed into a bag or coiled as needed but give me a 3” wide strap vs a 7/8” rope to deal with and I’ll choose the rope every time.

From a durability standpoint, the woven loop end of the rope is less likely to fail than the folded and sewn end of the strap. And yes, the outer sheath of the rope makes it more resistant to abrasion.

Straps have their place but for dynamic recoveries, the newer technology of the rope wins out every time.
 
If they were both made of the same materials, IÂ’d agree but theyÂ’re not and the construction differences lend to the ropes being about 50% stretchier than straps: most snatch straps quote a ~20% stretch while ropes tend to say they stretch ~30%.

Ropes are easy to maintain and can be tossed into a bag or coiled as needed but give me a 3” wide strap vs a 7/8” rope to deal with and I’ll choose the rope every time.

From a durability standpoint, the woven loop end of the rope is less likely to fail than the folded and sewn end of the strap. And yes, the outer sheath of the rope makes it more resistant to abrasion.

Straps have their place but for dynamic recoveries, the newer technology of the rope wins out every time.

Sounds like the marketing push to buy a product that's 4 times as expensive to do the same thing. Like rated recovery hooks.

How do you know what materials are used?

Have you measured the elasticity?

Have you ever had a end loop fail?

I'm open to being convinced. But unsupported claims by sellers aren't convincing. They don't pass the basic logic test to me.

The end loop failure is total nonsense. We can just skip that one.

The difference in nylon fiber vs nylon fiber - I've not found any supporting info on what the difference is. I've yet to even see anyone publish what manufacturer they're sourcing from. My guess is that the sellers don't know where they come from.

Elasticity - that's a function of the properties of the fiber and the relative orientation of the fiber strands.
 
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I'm not sure what a sine vs square wave means or how it applies here.
Sorry. My language can be overly florid sometimes.

Square wave - forces applied by yanking with a strap.
Sine wave - forces applied by yanking with a kinetic rope.



If they were both made of the same materials, I’d agree but they’re not and the construction differences lend to the ropes being about 50% stretchier than straps: most snatch straps quote a ~20% stretch while ropes tend to say they stretch ~30%.

Ropes are easy to maintain and can be tossed into a bag or coiled as needed but give me a 3” wide strap vs a 7/8” rope to deal with and I’ll choose the rope every time.

From a durability standpoint, the woven loop end of the rope is less likely to fail than the folded and sewn end of the strap. And yes, the outer sheath of the rope makes it more resistant to abrasion.

Straps have their place but for dynamic recoveries, the newer technology of the rope wins out every time.
In my mind it’s not a matter of whether a strap or a rope is stronger or less prone to abrasion. It’s a matter of which one gets the job done in the most safe and dependable way.

By “dynamic recovery” do you mean kinetic recovery? If not, what do you mean?

I acknowledge that no method of recovery is particularly safe. All require special knowledge and good judgment. None are idiot proof. Jetboy has voiced a preference for winches in this thread. I understand why. They are the recovery solution with the most control and safety. Only one vehicle is moving, and at a slow measured rate. But it’s the most expensive solution. The strap introduces a new variable. Now two vehicles are moving. Properly used, the strap is attached to both vehicles, the recovery vehicle inches away until the slack is removed from the system, and then, with sufficient torque and friction, the stuck vehicle is gently pulled free. Sometimes torque and friction are insufficient. The kinetic rope introduces yet another variable. Momentum. Which means unpredictability. Because suddenly all sorts of things matter that weren’t a factor before. Yes, a kinetic rope allows the recovery force to be introduced more gradually, but the force being introduced is coming from the momentum of a 2½ ton vehicle. The forces involved can be huge. The kinetic rope doesn’t limit the maximum force applied. It only limits the rate at which it is applied. In my opinion the kinetic rope is the recovery method of last resort.
 
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In my mind it’s not a matter of whether a strap or a rope is stronger or less prone to abrasion. It’s a matter of which one gets the job done in the most safe and dependable way.

By “dynamic recovery” do you mean kinetic recovery? If not, what do you mean?

I acknowledge that no method of recovery is particularly safe. All require special knowledge and good judgment. None are idiot proof. Jetboy has voiced a preference for winches in this thread. I understand why. They are the recovery solution with the most control and safety. Only one vehicle is moving, and at a slow measured rate. But it’s the most expensive solution. The strap introduces a new variable. Now two vehicles are moving. Properly used, the strap is attached to both vehicles, the recovery vehicle inches away until the slack is removed from the system, and then, with sufficient torque and friction, the stuck vehicle is gently pulled free. Sometimes torque and friction are insufficient. The kinetic rope introduces yet another variable. Momentum. Which means unpredictability. Because suddenly all sorts of things matter that weren’t a factor before. Yes, a kinetic rope allows the recovery force to be introduced more gradually, but the force being introduced is coming from the momentum of a 2½ ton vehicle. The forces involved can be huge. The kinetic rope doesn’t limit the maximum force applied. It only limits the rate at which it is applied. In my opinion the kinetic rope is the recovery method of last resort.

Dynamic = using a rope or strap and then using momentum to free the stuck vehicle. You can also pull using just a static tow strap but you're not using any energy stored in the rope or strap since you're not relying on stretch to help move the stuck vehicle. Something other than using a winch where there's only a static force being applied and the only vehicle moving would be the one being recovered.

You may have your opinion, but kinetic ropes (and snatch straps) are widely accepted as a safe way to free stuck vehicle. Like everything else, you have to know and understand the equipment you're using and should seek training if you're not. This is no different than a winch in terms of learning how to be safe.
 

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