Depression
- Thread starter BlackWorksInc
- Start date
Thai
Elite Member
Remember, like any field, there are good and bad psychiatrists...probably more bad than good. Here is an interesting first-hand account: Can Daniel Amen Read Your Mind?
You welcome.
BrianSD_42
New member
While I agree that the orgin of this thread was a discussion about the struggle of addiction, and that we have strayed a bit, Thai's point is relevant.
Patients need to be aware of these counter arguments and consider both sides of the coin as they say.
Especially since some people may read the material posted about the Amen clinic (marketing material from a FOR-profit medical center) as scientific fact. That seems to be up for debate.
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BrianSD_42
New member
Thank you for sharing your personal story. Those of you who have shared definitely add balance to a thread like this.
I am curious though about how drugs could have a long term affect on the brain as you imply, changing it permanently or helping it to permanently heal itself.
I (not a doctor) had thought from my casual readings that physch medications did not work that way. I thought that once a person, any person stopped taking them the issues came back. This is not to say that I'm advocating for drugs vs non-drugs but just that I was let to believe they don't have long term permanent effects on the brain as you describe.
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Greydog
Member
Fair enough, just think it belongs in a different thread perhaps. My sense was that many posters were sharing personal experiences and not looking for a clinical cross-fire.
Anyway, non-profits are a tax exempt status, if they are reasonably well run they all make profit. Nearly all hospitals in the US are non-profit and they nearly all produce profit, pay 6-9% debt instruments on top of that to borrow and build, etc. the tax status has little to do with profit based activity. Check Hisp CEO salaries.
the great him
Elite Member
the body is an amazing machine, very very complex, and always adapting... think of our brain as a cars ECU, say like in our 4runners for example, while the ECU has some parameters built into it(call them natural instincts) they system will adjust to conditions, like if you always drive with a heavy foot, your ECU will learn your driving style and change slightly... well thats an outside stimulus that has changed things in the brain... some times things need to be reset and and given a renewed parameter... so we go and reset the ECU(think of that as the meds) and we drive it conservatively or normal for a while and the car will learn that once again and function that way... i know this is a bad analogy but i hope you get the point.
meds are not always a lifetime deal. the brain will recognize signals the rest of the body and other parts of the brain are experiencing and sending. i was not happy with the way i was both feeling and acting, even though i seamed to have no control over it -i had been on countless other meds(some helped a little but it was short lived, others made things worse), and been to various other psychs, been to numerous counselors ect. it simply was not working. i will agree that it takes the right combo of someone else who truly cares about you and also has the knowledge of whats going on to help as well your wanting to change, so not every psych or therapist is gonna be able to work magic... it sucks some people i just didnt like, within 10-20 of talking to them i knew it was gonna be a waste of time, something about them just rubbed me the wrong way and it was over. -who knows maybe it was how they presented themselves(body language), or something they said(innocent enough as it may be) or maybe is was the color of their office idk but what ever it was it wasnt working for me.
again back to meds, sorry, from what i was told as they tried to brake it down into laymen terms, basically my brain had these patterns or paths for electrical current(all brains have electrical current, its how the signals are passed/sent) that were off or bad, and those when triggered would go off and yeah then all hell would break lose... so (and i dont fully understand or know how this part works other than it does) the meds were introduced(and im not gonna tell you what ones for two reasons, 1, every person is different, what worked for me might not work for you, and 2, i dont even remember the name of the meds lol) they would block those "bab" paths, and the longer those paths were blocked and not used the more the brain was able to repair itself and fix/right itself, blocking off those paths so that the signal would not longer pass through that way anymore. -like how in the woods if you go off trail, pretty soon there will be a path there and it will look like the real road instead of the true road, and then everyone will start to take it. well if you leave it and dont do anything to fix it, pretty soon that will be the road that everyone has to take as the old road will be no more. and without help it probably wont ever change back. so someone steps in, blocks off the new road(meds) and redirects everyone back to the old road, while letting the "new" road -the one that was off trail, get back to normal and allowing it to grow back up and cover the mistake... then a while later that person comes back and removes the block-off and no one is the wiser about the off trail. -see that block off was not permanent it was just there long enough to prevent any further damage or and to brake the habit/cycle of bad behavior.
once that has happened and the body and brain sees that and likes the way it is feeling and handling now it will learn that and program that into its way overwriting the old. after a while you slowly remove the meds and watch and see how things are going... for me it was great, i have no desire to flip out over stupid stuff, yeah i still made mistakes, still got into trouble(all kids do) but my reaction to those all changed. i didnt disrespect my parents to the degree i was, and was not self destructive anymore. i had a new outlook on life, things were looking up for me. sure i still had challenges, all kids and people do
im not saying the Amen clinic is the end-all be-all of clinics but they are damn good and worth a shot in my mind. i think a lot of people get the misguided idea that you will need to be on meds the rest of your life, and if you dont take your meds your gonna be a whack job until you get back on them. in my mind, and from what i know, that to me is a sign of ether co-dependency, or the wrong meds. -now the older one is, probably the longer they are gonna have to be on meds, i was like 15 or so when i was on the meds, so who knows maybe someone in their 30s would need to be on meds for 24-36 months idk im not a doc i dont study this stuff ect so thats just simple peasant thinking math. what is right for you only you and your doc will know. and im not trying to say the OP needs meds, cause thats not my call. maybe his is something that is as simple as a new hobby or getting out in the fresh air more ect. idk the Amen clinic though, does not just deal with meds, they have people to talk to as well therapists and counselors that can just talk things out and listen and give input if needed.
As I understand it, neural pathways continue to grow throughout one's life. This is why reading keeps the mind nimble while vegging in front of the tv dulls the mind. The parts of the brain you use grow stronger and more supple. The ones which are left idling sort of atrophy. The common wisdom used to be that the brain stopped developing once a person reached adulthood. It now appears it is a dynamic organ capable of forming new neural networks for most of its life. Cool stuff.
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Great explanation. Perfect analogy. Well done.
I especially like this part of your story.
the great him
Elite Member
while yes true, id like to add, that the older one gets, the slower it(the brain) will be at regenerating or building new neural pathways... this is why when younger people have brain injuries they can heal and bounce back way faster than if an elderly person can... say like from a stroke, a younger person(yes it can happen even in your teens) has a stroke and it may only take 5 or so years to regain full function back(or as full as its gonna get(sometimes permanent damage is done), but in an older person say 60 years it might take them 5+ years just to regain their speech back and 10+ years to regain their motor movements. also the chances of permanent damage with older people is much greater, sometimes it maybe take 20 years. but still the brain is constantly evolving and can be working towards healing itself up untill death
gives a whole new meaning to "its all in your head" -and yes your mental attitude has a lot to do with it also.
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I agree.
I would argue that this thread is the perfect place to bring up the points of discussion that Thai has.
I appreciate Thai's professional perspective about possible long-term affects of radiation exposure due to this and other types of 'scans'.
Also, the argument that people could be helped just as or more effectively by talking to a qualified psychiatrist, without being irradiated, is something I would want to know.
The apparent fact that the Amen clinic could have had their methods validated, and chose not to, speaks volumes.
This is all good information to have.
BlackWorksInc
New member
I don't mind if you guys dip off topic a bit. The thread is mainly to look for advice and help on depression for me and anyone else who is suffering. But it can be about helping others with disorders that are similar, I really don't want people to feel they can't talk about their problems; I also don't mind people trying to educate others a little on depression either because its a complex illness that many people truly don't understand.
I just trust you guys to not drive off the trail and off the cliff with the thread, we're all decent off-roaders here!
I just trust you guys to not drive off the trail and off the cliff with the thread, we're all decent off-roaders here!
Since BW doesn't mind I retract my objection.
And as with trail running there are a multitude of approaches. Some people like to follow the most used lines while others prefer a line they think works better for themselves despite what others say is best.
The human brain is very elastic and, as has been mentioned, can form new neural connections at all ages, even for old guys like myself. With my years of experience with the medical professions I don't think they are the final authority and that applies to techs in the field as well.
If mainstream practioners follow the DSMV as their bible they're not doing their patients justice. Punching behaviors/feelings into a computer and spitting out prescriptions is not good medicine.
Medical care is the art of combining medications and experience to get the desired results. Thinking outside the box is good, it leads to new treatments and discoveries.
I just trust you guys to not drive off the trail and off the cliff with the thread, we're all decent off-roaders here!
And as with trail running there are a multitude of approaches. Some people like to follow the most used lines while others prefer a line they think works better for themselves despite what others say is best.
The human brain is very elastic and, as has been mentioned, can form new neural connections at all ages, even for old guys like myself. With my years of experience with the medical professions I don't think they are the final authority and that applies to techs in the field as well.
If mainstream practioners follow the DSMV as their bible they're not doing their patients justice. Punching behaviors/feelings into a computer and spitting out prescriptions is not good medicine.
Medical care is the art of combining medications and experience to get the desired results. Thinking outside the box is good, it leads to new treatments and discoveries.
Thai
Elite Member
I would argue that the practice of medicine is an art of combining good old basic common sense and solid medical knowledge. There is a fine line b/w thinking outside the box and thinking outside the box for the sake of making a profit.
Dr. Amen was given an opportunity on a national medical stage to back his "findings" from years of his "experience," which is what he claims on his website. He went silent when called out.
AMEN clinic is no different from other alternative medicine clinic around the country looking to make the extra buck by doing something different from standard of care. Here in Houston, you have the Hotze Clinic. No different from AMEN, except Hotze deals more on the medical side instead of radiological. Tons of believer. All cash paying. (No medical insurance will cover these type of clinics for obvious reason.) Some do get better thru medicines no doubt and some get better thru placebo effect. I am sure that these clinics have decent doctors and counselors.
There is no doubt that AMEN clinic gives good psychological support...and are extremely friendly because you are paying them cash. So, this goes back to my previous point, good psychological help comes with having a damn good psychiatrist (easier said than done) and support staff at that clinic (e.g. psychologist and social worker).
Think about this for one moment...if SPECT is indeed innovative and downright effective (for years now), then why are drug manufacturers not aiming their drug to SPECT's specific findings? They have everything to gain and nothing to lose, right? Multiple Sclerosis has drugs that are very specific to MRI findings. Why are scanning manufacturers not claiming the same success rate? Again, everything to gain in their wallet and nothing to lose. Why do you think big medical centers around the world not using SPECT for this purpose? Remember, this is a cash cow! Who would want to turn it down?
Dr. Amen claims to be constantly trying to push SPECT to mainstream medicine. Why back down when asked for (scientific, blinded) proof? If i know something to be true and gets called out for it, then you bet that i will jump at the first opportunity to rub it into critics face! Wouldn't you, esp if you are a nationally renown specialist in the area?
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I said "with the medical profession" not in the medical profession. I've been strictly a consumer and caretaker. I spent too much time caring for an aging parent not too learn a lot about the way medicine is practiced to say nothing about my own health issues and how lousy some doctors are...
As far as Dr. Amen is concerned I have no opinion, no experience and thus cannot/will not make any judgement which also means I didn't read your post about him.
As far as Dr. Amen is concerned I have no opinion, no experience and thus cannot/will not make any judgement which also means I didn't read your post about him.
Thai
Elite Member
Oh, that is what you mean by YEARS OF EXPERIENCE with the medical profession...you're the son of your parents visiting a doctor's office. Ok...that is about as useful as poop-flavored lollipop!
You have no opinion, but it seems like you want to suppress mine, despite me giving valid evidence...just because you don't agree with my opinion (backed by the WHOLE medical community!). Or is it because you don't like me from our past disagreements? I hope the former...but either way, you're showing your personal bias. You claim to not read my post because it is simple common sense.
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Not quite son. I'm not some 10 year old sitting in the Dr's office with mommy and daddy. My parents are both dead, we'll talk again after you spend years with your parents caring for them as they slowly die.
I simply saw no need for you to attack and attempt to discredit a positive experience that 2 members had.
I don't recall past disagreements but I imagine you have had more than your share judging from these posts alone. Your responses here reinforce my original post suggesting this wasn't the place for your comments.
You need to grow up Thai.
Thai
Elite Member
I did not discredit them. They had a positive experience with AMEN Clinic. Fine. But, that does not mean that we should keep quiet, right? Evidence suggest that AMEN Clinic is not mainstream medicine and lacks data to support its use of SPECT scan. Simple. I present well-known effects of radiation (long term). I present evidence that discredits some of AMEN claims. Simple. How you come to your conclusion is beyond me? I suggest that you stop being so damn bias...and look at the evidence (or lack of) at hand.
Why is this not the place to post legitimate counter evidence to what the OP was seriously considering????