Desperately Need Help From Toyota Techs

TOY2G

New member
If there is someone on here that has access to TIS and can give me the troubleshooting steps for a random miss-fire on a 2001 Tundra 4.7 (cyl 3-5-7)

Back story:

I bought a used Tundra for hauling my trailer, after about a week it developed a very bad stumble and it would come and go. It was throwing a random misfire code and in my data stream (Genysis EVO Scan tool) it showed the misfires were on 3-5-7.

I notice that half the coli packs on the thing were non-branded and the few Denso ones that were left had paint marks all over them (I am assuming from someone before me chasing the same problem)

I called the dealer for coil packs but they were asking $208 each for them and none were in stock. So a quick trip to advanced netted me 8 coil packs for under $400, while I was at it, I bought 8 new Denso plugs (platinum) fuel filter, Air filter, MAF cleaner, TB Cleaner and some carb cleaner (to check for vacuum leaks).

I replaced all 8 coil packs, all the plugs, filters, cleaned the MAF, and TB and lastly check for vacuum leaks (found one and fixed it with some new vacuum line)

Well I had the same problem, ran fine for two days and then fell on its face hard. If I kept the RPMs above 2500 it would smooth out.

So Now I needed to check the compression, fuel pressure, and injector signal, something I did not have the time or tools for.

So I took it to the dealer just down the road and asked them to find the problem, and what I had tried so far.

So I asked them to check the fuel pressure, compression, and voltage to the injectors, also asked them to check the timing belt (tundra forums had mention of bad tensioner causing the belt to jump a tooth)

Over the last 6 weeks YES 6 WEEKS, they have called me about as many times.

The first call was the writer telling me that the coil packs were aftermarket, and would have to be replaced with OEM coils before they could test it. I asked them why they could not OHM the coils out and see if they were bad.... he said he would get back to me.

Next he calls and says the tech said it was the injectors, I questioned why he thought it would be 3-4 injectors at once going bad and asked if he had checked fuel pressure and compression. He said they had checked both and both were good. After much hesitation I told them they could do one injector in one of the trouble cylinders and see if it fixes that cylinder (injectors $188).

Third call, he tells me that the injector did not fix the misfire, and insists on new coil packs. I rant for a moment about their ability to swap parts without any real trouble shooting, and again tell him no, on the coil packs. I ask him to check into the timing because it was one of my original concerns.

4th call, he tells me that the timing had jumped two teeth, so the tech put it back together correctly and it did not fix the problem....?????? let that sink in for a moment... (Worth mentioning; the timing belt was just done less than 10k ago at another local dealer.) He tells me that the tensioner and belt were both NON Toyota, and that could have been why it jumped. So I asked “what now” if that did not fix it, and why did he not call me to have me replace the non OEM when he had it apart. He said the tech was just trying to get it figured out and he put it back together.

Fifth call, they writer tells me, it needs a new engine, and he was pretty sure I did not want to spend that kind of money. I asked “what was the reason for the new diagnosis”, to which he replied “the tech said the jumped belt probably bent some valves”. So I pointed out that it ran fine from time to time, and the tech said the compression was good. He said he will call me back.

6th call, he says the tech only tested on cylinder for compression before, but now he went ahead and check all 8 and compression was good so it probably did not need a motor. He went on to tell me the “master tech” and “his very best mechanic” insists it is the injectors still. So I ask, how much do I owe you right now? $1200 he says, 1200 dollars for no real troubleshooting and absolutely no resolution. He informs me that the tech cannot possibly do any more unless he replaces the non OEM parts with OEM parts. So after some very long ranting and venting, I tell him to do it, replace the coils, injectors, fuel filter, timing tensioner, and spark plugs (because he said that is not the part number in their computer for the standard plugs)

Yesterday, he calls me to let me know I could come pick the truck up, it was done…. I said “great, did it fix it?” and to my disbelief he said “it’s a little better but it still has a couple random misfires”… So I say, once again the tech had no idea and just wanted to replace parts, and I asked how much I owe him for all the hard work they have done…sit down….$3400. After I started breathing again, I asked him what exactly I should do with a truck that they cannot make run, but want half the price for the truck for “repairs”. So he has the intestinal fortitude to tell me, the tech said it needs a new computer and perhaps a wiring harness. WHY, I said, to which he replies, the computer in it looks damaged and so does the harness. But he assures me, there is no way the tech could have known to check the ECM prior to this point and investment. I remind him of a conversation we had about checking for a re-flash in case the issue was in the computer, and he says, well there was no re-flash avail, so we just passed over that. He also offered to replace the ECM for $900 pus labor, and it may help the problem, but it may need the harness also.


THE END

So what I want to know, for sure, is there a point where (if he were troubleshooting properly) he would have checked the ECM and noticed the “damage”? Something made him check the ECM after he replaced everything else and wanted to replace the motor. So should he have looked at the ECM or tested voltage there during troubleshooting? I need to know and have proof before I go to pick this thing up, so any help with this would be AWESOME. Preferable, a copy of something that shows what steps to take and what to test for above described problems.
:frusty:
 
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Holy crap. You need to sit down and get that all in writing, and then you need to go into that service department and get with the service manager, and lay that out. Firmly inform him that you'll be happy to pay cost for the new parts but that you cannot and will not pay for labor that you did not ask for and indeed recommended against that didn't fix the trouble that you brought the truck in for.

Any service manager worth his salt should take one look at what the tech and service writer did and roll over and pee on his belly. If he doesn't, escalate above his head until you get resolution, because that's all a bunch of bullpucky.

Sorry, I'm no help on the troubleshooting. :(
 
Do you normally buy parts directly from the dealer?

If you haven't ready, consider an online dealer like Camelback Toyota.
 
Holy crap. You need to sit down and get that all in writing, and then you need to go into that service department and get with the service manager, and lay that out. Firmly inform him that you'll be happy to pay cost for the new parts but that you cannot and will not pay for labor that you did not ask for and indeed recommended against that didn't fix the trouble that you brought the truck in for.

Any service manager worth his salt should take one look at what the tech and service writer did and roll over and pee on his belly. If he doesn't, escalate above his head until you get resolution, because that's all a bunch of bullpucky.

Sorry, I'm no help on the troubleshooting. :(


I agree, that is why I'm looking for the the troubleshooting, I want to be able to prove this guy missed the short bus. I will take this as far as I have to for it to be resolved. I will pay $3k if the truck was running and ready to go, but it's not.

Do you normally buy parts directly from the dealer?

If you haven't ready, consider an online dealer like Camelback Toyota.

I have a wholesale account with Toyota Of Dallas (TRDParts4U), but I did not want tot drag them or my account into this mess...
 
Nathan, trade it. Go far from home and trade it. First though get back some of your money from that dealer and then trade it. Think of the loss as money spent for a lesson learned. Cut and run dude seriously unless you maybe want to take it to a priest and have it exorcised.

Edit: Know what it sounds like? Flood or water damage to the ECU.
 
Nathan, trade it. Go far from home and trade it. First though get back some of your money from that dealer and then trade it. Think of the loss as money spent for a lesson learned. Cut and run dude seriously unless you maybe want to take it to a priest and have it exorcised.

Edit: Know what it sounds like? Flood or water damage to the ECU.

I agree, it may be flood damage or something similar, However at the same time the timing belt was done, it had the frame replaced under the recall.

so from what I can tell, the dealer that did the frame, timing belt, coil packs and spark plugs may have been the one who messed this thing up.

I have the dealer service records from that dealer, it shows timing belt, drive belt, spark plugs (v8 tune up package) replace 3 coil packs, frame replaced...

yet here I am just a few months later with a vehicle that had Bosch plugs in it (the reason i put densos in it) after market timing belt and tensioner, after market coil packs and this.. a hitch that they put back on, and the first time I used it, i made it less than two miles and it ripped in half on one side. What kind of dealer uses that many aftermarket parts and puts a hitch this far gone back on a truck?


I paid 7k for the truck, and now I owe over 3k for the shotty work, i think i need to ride this out and hope one of these dealers makes it right.
 
I agree, it may be flood damage or something similar, However at the same time the timing belt was done, it had the frame replaced under the recall.

so from what I can tell, the dealer that did the frame, timing belt, coil packs and spark plugs may have been the one who messed this thing up.

I have the dealer service records from that dealer, it shows timing belt, drive belt, spark plugs (v8 tune up package) replace 3 coil packs, frame replaced...

yet here I am just a few months later with a vehicle that had Bosch plugs in it (the reason i put densos in it) after market timing belt and tensioner, after market coil packs and this.. a hitch that they put back on, and the first time I used it, i made it less than two miles and it ripped in half on one side. What kind of dealer uses that many aftermarket parts and puts a hitch this far gone back on a truck?


I paid 7k for the truck, and now I owe over 3k for the shotty work, i think i need to ride this out and hope one of these dealers makes it right.

I can't say that I blame you and I have spent thousands just to prove a ten dollar point. Unfortunately, while it will make you feel good it's still a suck business decision. Cut and run almost always makes better sense than stay and pay but hey, sometimes you just have to stick around to see what happens! Good luck and keep us informed!
 
It definitely sounds like the tech either didn't know what he was doing or was being lazy. Either way they wanted to throw parts at it and hope for the best on your dime. Whether parts are OEM or not should be irrelevant, any FSM I have seen has said to check for proper ohm or voltage to rule out bad electronics. Whether it has a toyota stamp on it or not shouldn't matter.

I cannot be much help in terms of the troubleshooting steps but one thing that I may be helpful on is finding the issue. Since it's a misfire on cylinders 3, 5 and 7 it almost makes me wonder if it's a grounding issue with the engine wire harness. I have several toyota wiring diagrams for your engine so if you need them let me know and I'll upload them to a host for you. If you can do a resistance check on the harness you can rule out whether or not there is internal damage to the wires within the harness.
 
At this point I would even contemplate legal action, the course of diagnostics seems rather shoddy to me. But unfortunately this is pretty much how Toyota has them doing diagnosis on vehicles, its mainly "check this one item, replace parts, and/or call TAS."

Most if not all dealerships have been given at least one TIS Techstream 2.0 with a branded PicoTech DSO; of which many if not most MDTs (Master Diagnostic Technicians) have little to no knowledge to use.

I would have pulled waveforms on the injectors for both firing and amperage to see if the computer is properly signalling the injectors to fire and if the injector coils are working properly (this combined with a pressure transducer on the fuel rail would give 99% assurance of injector function, unfortunately Toyota does not provide the transducers nor training on pressure waveform analysis) which should have given the technician enough information to determine if the injectors are the issue. We have had a lot of injector issues lately with older vehicles, an example is I am seeing a lot of 3.4L 5VZ-FE engines developing hot misfire issues when the coils in the injectors electrically open.

Determining Ignition Coil function could have been done the same by a simple voltage wave form to see input signals and output signals of the coils, thus ruling out aftermarket parts. The timing belt was a good find and possibly something of worth; but I felt their diagnosis seemed lacking. What type of compression test was done? Static and/or leak-down? A static compression test would be some what useful, but really there are better ways to test compression.

[Unfortunately, again Toyota does not provide a pressure transducer, nor training to use these items. If they did, the technician could have easily done a compression wave form analysis on the engine and combined it with spark and fuel waveforms as well as active fuel pressure data to seen a working picture of the engine as it ran. This type of testing would have allowed them to conclusively determine how the engine is breathing as it runs and could have saved them diagnostic time and given a clearer picture than a standard compression test. They could not only see how the cylinders are breathing, but determined valve timing and function down to withing about 6 degrees (which is more accurate than a tooth), but this is stuff most technicians can't be bothered with and requires a working knowledge of DSOs as well as pressure transducers.]

Unfortunately Toyota's diagnostics on ECMs is very rudimentary (normally its not an issue because they don't go bad and when they do Toyota's ECM Failure DTC is pretty damn accurate so the checks are mainly formality), typically resistance checking certain terminals and checking quality/status of certain voltage signals. You could have used a DSO to map out the signals from the ECM, but it may not have been more definitive than using a DMM. Simple resistance checking and voltage drop testing across the harness would have ruled out the need of a harness easily.

Unfortunately what seems to have happened is that the dealer thought they had an easy ticket in terms of diagnosing the issue, but in the end the issue ended up being more complicated than they had anticipated. At which point the tech has spent a lot of his time (read that HIS money) in trying to solve an issue that is getting more and more complicated. At which point he's probably not even making a profit on the job and starts trying to "Flat Rate" the work relying more heavily on Toyota's and Dealership's diagnostic policies in general that revolve around replacing parts more than accurate testing.

I'm not saying the technician is a bad guy, I don't know him; but it sounds like the job got out from under him really fast and he probably ended up losing some of his pay check due to it. The reality is that he is probably inadequately trained and practiced in working on such a complex problem, regardless of his certification level. Hell the only reason I know so much about utilizing DSOs and Pressure Wave Form Analysis is because I take courses with CTi (Carquest Technical Institute) out of my own pocket to keep updated on new techniques and methods for diagnosis and repair of vehicles in general. I unfortunately don't have the money to invest in my own DSO and Pressure Transducers, otherwise... not to mention the way Toyota wants much of their warranty work and how Dealerships in general try and make money, I'd never get a return on my investment. :(
[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION]

Not a bad idea on the water damage, that could be a possibility if the vehicle is that heavily rusted. I heard rumors that a lot of those "Katrina" vehicles have been migrating from the East Coast and basically becoming a minor pandemic in terms of Lemons.
 
[MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION] Thank you for the help, you took the time to give me a little insite, so I thought it only fair I update this thread.

Armed with a little more knowledge, and fueled buy a bit more aggression, I think I may have made headway.

I did get Toyota involved and in turn the dealer contacted me. The service director was made aware of the situation and the customer satisfaction rep called me from the dealer.

They would not come right out and say they were guessing, but they did say that perhaps it could have been done a little more systematically. They agreed to replace the ECM at no cost to me and they were very clear to mention a few times that it was just in good faith to me and not an admission of wrong doing.

So they still have the truck (since March 18th) and I am hoping that the ECM is the cause of the issue. Bottom line is, if the ECM does not fix it, I still have a $3000+ bill due and still own a broken truck.

I still suspect the problems are from when the frame was replaced several months ago, there must be a reason the owner (single owner) had the frame replaced and then traded it in the same month. I have read a few stories on Tundra Solution about nightmares caused from replacing the frame.

Thank you for your help, and I will update this thread when I get the truck back.
 
Picked the truck up today with 247 more miles than I dropped it off with (exactly 40 more miles than I have driven since I have owned it), paid the $3601.09 bill, took possession of my "now" $9000 2001 Tundra and got a flat tire on the way home...lol. Life....it's not like anybody gets out alive; ya know....

So it still has a rough idle, but so far no engine codes....guess time will tell..

If this thing is not fixed, the next step is C4H10+S+Δ= Easy as 3.14

Thanks to [MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION] [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] [MENTION=24995]SV_Dude[/MENTION] and [MENTION=49649]KidVermicious[/MENTION] for the input and or advise.
 
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I think the moral of this horror story is never give any dealer or mechanic permission to "do whatever it takes" to fix your vehicle.

Never authorize more than $200 troubleshooting. In fact this whole thing sounds crazy to me because every time I've ever gone to the dealer in 10+ years of owning my 4Runner I've always signed a form that says something like $100 troubleshooting fee that will be applied to the problem once diagnosed.

I'm sorry to hear about your story. Let this thread be a warning to all. There are shady dealers out there. Be careful what you sign for!!!!!!
 
That really sucks man! Hopefully you get things sorted out.

FINALLY a solution.

Yea, that's right, this is still going on. truck made it about 13 miles before it quite running and threw the same codes. thanks to [MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION] i was able to speak (to some extent) on their poor troubleshooting. But in the end I was saved by Meth...

As mentioned above, I got the truck back from the dealer, the following day it went full retard again. I contacted the dealer, and was literally asked to not bring it back. (story gets long so I will leave that for another day)

I park the truck at my warehouse and there it sits...UNTIL a few weeks later some crack heads come and swipe the cats out of all three trucks...$#@^%$... luck for me, on the Tundra, they also punched a hole in the fuel tank on the front, just above the plastic skid plate.

So now I have to decide... Do I replace cats (and O2 Sensors because they took them with the cats) and get a new fuel tank on a truck that does not even run....?

For some reason, i decide to go ahead and order Magnaflow cats, and two new OEM O2 sensors. then i find a used fuel tank in WA and get it on the way.

upon pulling the old fuel tank, I find a severely rusted fuel pump to tank gasket mounting surface. it looked like old shoe leather. when I removed the fuel pump I noticed NO LESS than 2" of water in the bottom of the tank. I had to wait for a new gasket, but at this point I had hope that I had found the problem.

A few days later I replaced the tank and gasket, then I took the truck to the exhaust shop to have the new crap welded in.

I am happy to report, I have been driving the truck for more than a week and a full tank of gas, and not one engine light or misfire.


Dealer's failed trouble shooting $3763
My Failed trouble shooting $325
Fuel tank $200
Gasket $11
Catalytic Converters $265
O2 Sensors $216
Exhaust Repair $291

Finding out the problem was just water.......:tsk: PRICELESS
 
It's funny, I worked for a Honda dealer in my teens and we saw a similar problem with a then new hybrid. After weeks and weeks of dealing with it, they finally dropped the tank and found sugar in it. The lady's ex husband had poured it in there causing all the issues. I almost mentioned it but figured there was no chance your tank was polluted.
 
FINALLY a solution.

Yea, that's right, this is still going on. truck made it about 13 miles before it quite running and threw the same codes. thanks to [MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION] i was able to speak (to some extent) on their poor troubleshooting. But in the end I was saved by Meth...

As mentioned above, I got the truck back from the dealer, the following day it went full retard again. I contacted the dealer, and was literally asked to not bring it back. (story gets long so I will leave that for another day)

I park the truck at my warehouse and there it sits...UNTIL a few weeks later some crack heads come and swipe the cats out of all three trucks...$#@^%$... luck for me, on the Tundra, they also punched a hole in the fuel tank on the front, just above the plastic skid plate.

So now I have to decide... Do I replace cats (and O2 Sensors because they took them with the cats) and get a new fuel tank on a truck that does not even run....?

For some reason, i decide to go ahead and order Magnaflow cats, and two new OEM O2 sensors. then i find a used fuel tank in WA and get it on the way.

upon pulling the old fuel tank, I find a severely rusted fuel pump to tank gasket mounting surface. it looked like old shoe leather. when I removed the fuel pump I noticed NO LESS than 2" of water in the bottom of the tank. I had to wait for a new gasket, but at this point I had hope that I had found the problem.

A few days later I replaced the tank and gasket, then I took the truck to the exhaust shop to have the new crap welded in.

I am happy to report, I have been driving the truck for more than a week and a full tank of gas, and not one engine light or misfire.


Dealer's failed trouble shooting $3763
My Failed trouble shooting $325
Fuel tank $200
Gasket $11
Catalytic Converters $265
O2 Sensors $216
Exhaust Repair $291

Finding out the problem was just water.......:tsk: PRICELESS

Did you buy Arco Gas? I remember a long time ago they got nailed big time for diluting their fuel with water...

That being said, That is a LOT of water to accumulate in the gas tank, glad you figured it out. Not sure what their diagnostics were and to be honest I am not entirely sure I'd have thought gas tank at any point based on the limited information we got (I'm sure the details are many and numerous to this horror story.)

I'm glad your issue is fixed though.
 
Did you buy Arco Gas? I remember a long time ago they got nailed big time for diluting their fuel with water...

That being said, That is a LOT of water to accumulate in the gas tank, glad you figured it out. Not sure what their diagnostics were and to be honest I am not entirely sure I'd have thought gas tank at any point based on the limited information we got (I'm sure the details are many and numerous to this horror story.)

I'm glad your issue is fixed though.

I bought the truck with 1/4 tank of fuel and filled it one time with Shell. by time it developed the problem, I had only put about 40 miles on it from the time I bought it.

Had it not been for the hole in the tank, I would have never thought of it either. Funny thing is, the frame was replaces two months before I bought it, so the tank was off the vehicle, I am assuming that is when it started leaking water into the top of the tank where the pump goes. every time it rains the bed dumps water right on top of the tank.
 
I bought the truck with 1/4 tank of fuel and filled it one time with Shell. by time it developed the problem, I had only put about 40 miles on it from the time I bought it.

Had it not been for the hole in the tank, I would have never thought of it either. Funny thing is, the frame was replaces two months before I bought it, so the tank was off the vehicle, I am assuming that is when it started leaking water into the top of the tank where the pump goes. every time it rains the bed dumps water right on top of the tank.

Glad you got it resolved. Last place anyone looks after flood or high water is fuel tank but water gets in there too.

Edit: I would ask the dealership where they stored that tank while they were putting in the new frame...
 
I contacted the dealer, and was literally asked to not bring it back. (story gets long so I will leave that for another day)

I wanna hear this part, when you're ready to tell it. I bet Toyota wants to hear it to.

I'm not a mechanic, but I am a professional troubleshooter. The one thing I've learned over the years is that once you've ruled out everything a problem could be, it must be something that it cannot be, and that's when you go back to page one and you check everything. At some point in the process of beating their heads against the wall and charging you to replace shit that wasn't broken, one of those dealership techs should have checked the fuel supply.
 
Glad you got it resolved. Last place anyone looks after flood or high water is fuel tank but water gets in there too.

Edit: I would ask the dealership where they stored that tank while they were putting in the new frame...


Thank you. The frame was swapped in Jan 2014, if I had to guess they left the tank outside in the snow, under the sprinkler, by the hot water heater in the parking lot.

After-all, they did put this back on..


As well as a rotten fuel pump gasket, that was as hard as PVC...

For the record, the truck also had the timing belt, water pump, spark plugs and 6 coil pack replaced within 10,000 miles of me buying it. All at the same dealer. The Coil Packs were no-name, the plugs were Bosch, and the timing belt was Gates....THIS IS NOT A JOKE.


I wanna hear this part, when you're ready to tell it. I bet Toyota wants to hear it to.


I called the service write, we will call him CJ (because that's his name). He put me on hold and then someone else picked up and asked if he could help me. I said "that remains to be determined" and I proceed to explain what was going on. He listened (as if he were learning of this truck for the first time, with the occasional wow and auhu.... Then he said "well sir......we have replaced everything on that truck, every part of every system that controls drive-ability. there is nothing left for us to do" I politely remind him that I had just paid $3700 (with tax) for their ineffective guess work. Then he says the words that will forever cause rolling laughter in my head...."if you bring it back in, we will just have to start guessing what might be wrong and replacing parts one by one.....that will get expensive" :redbrick:

I told him he could just give me a refund check, and I will take my vehicle to a different shop and have it fixed. He put me on hold, then...someone else came back and said they could not refund the money. I said I understand, I don't mind paying the money if the truck were fixed. I told him I would drop the truck off, and they could call me when it was fix (like I paid for) and they can apply the money they siphoned out of me to repair it.

Once again I get put on hold, for about 15 min, and CJ picks up the phone again. I ask him if he had to go to the bathroom.....he said, no I'm fine. Then I asked why he put me on hold and then disappeared for nearly an hour while I talked to 3 other people. He told me he was not authorized to "help" me. So I asked him when I should bring the truck back in. He says they cannot help me any further unless I am willing to buy a new wiring harness and perhaps an engine (because the tech thinks the aftermarket timing belt tensioner may have caused it to jump timing and bend a valve). I told him there was no way I was buying an engine or wiring harness. He said that there was then no reason to bring the truck back to them.

For my own amusement I asked if I brought the truck back and had them put an engine in and a wiring harness and the problem was still there, what was next? Was he going to call me and tell me that they finally think they figured it out and tell me what I needed to fix it is a 2014 Tundra?

I was being a tool at this point and he just wanted off the phone, so I asked one more time, are you going to take the truck back in and fix the problem or do I need to go over the dealer. his reply before hanging up "do what you gotta do"..

The End
 

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