Difficult alignment issues... any ideas on what might be bent or worn..

[wfo9]

Quick shot at this to see if anyone has any useful ideas or related experience....

Buddy has a trail with KDSS... and typical mods... Lift, 33s....

Alignment recently went nuts and caster won't go above negative on passenger side only.

First thought was bent spindle, so we replaced it with a brand new one this weekend. Caster still will not go above -6, so that was not it.

He is not close to me right now so I can't get my eyes on it. He's about to depart for a month long trip to CO....and needs to get on the road soon.

My thought is that it has to be the LCA. There is really no other possibility that I can come up w ith. It has Tubular UCAs (Camburg) and I can't see how those could bend... Guy doing the alignment told him the LCA bushings have uneven wear.

LCA is my best guess, but can't just keep throwing parts at it.

He is trying to contact a master Toyota tech we know... to see if he can work on it in the next day or so, but I'm out of ideas. I know the bushings are not suppose to be serviceable but can be replaced with aftermarket ones.... No way we could get those parts in time though.

 

[Jetboy]

My random thoughts.

First is that it's almost certainly the lower ball joint position that's causing the issue. The UCA has very little force on it at any time. It's job is basically just to locate the spindle. most force is going through the LCA and coilover.

That far out could be caused by a bent LCA. Or it could take an impact and have bent the frame side mounting tabs on the LCA. I'd look very carefully at them. They could get tweaked with the right hit on the tire. I'd guess that they would bend before the LCA would, but I don't know about that.

 

[1engineer]

Lca.

 

[Jono.ful]

stock alignment tabs are relatively weak and will bend under hard impact, or can be damaged if the alignment tech doesn't know what he's doing. got my truck back from an alignment a couple years ago and the lobe on one of the eccentric bolt was riding up on the shoulder of one of the alignment tabs. Total Chaos makes chromoly replacement tabs that are a significant upgrade over stock and helped with my alignment issues substantially. only downside is that they need to be TIG welded

 

[wfo9]

Well. all indications point to a bent LCA.

And what really sucks is... because this truck has KDSS they are backordered. At least 2 weeks maybe more ;-(

Going to try to find a used one.. but most likely he will just have to deal with it being screwed up for the trip.

 

[FactoryRide]

Well. all indications point to a bent LCA.

And what really sucks is... because this truck has KDSS they are backordered. At least 2 weeks maybe more ;-(

Going to try to find a used one.. but most likely he will just have to deal with it being screwed up for the trip.

It may be a long shot, but SoCalTrail removed his KDSS LCAs for some TC LCAs. He may still have his laying around. Not sure if he would be willing to let them go or not though.

 

[Ducmonsta]

Quick shot at this to see if anyone has any useful ideas or related experience....

Buddy has a trail with KDSS... and typical mods... Lift, 33s....

Alignment recently went nuts and caster won't go above negative on passenger side only.

First thought was bent spindle, so we replaced it with a brand new one this weekend. Caster still will not go above -6, so that was not it.

He is not close to me right now so I can't get my eyes on it. He's about to depart for a month long trip to CO....and needs to get on the road soon.

My thought is that it has to be the LCA. There is really no other possibility that I can come up w ith. It has Tubular UCAs (Camburg) and I can't see how those could bend... Guy doing the alignment told him the LCA bushings have uneven wear.

LCA is my best guess, but can't just keep throwing parts at it.

He is trying to contact a master Toyota tech we know... to see if he can work on it in the next day or so, but I'm out of ideas. I know the bushings are not suppose to be serviceable but can be replaced with aftermarket ones.... No way we could get those parts in time though.

Something tells me there is another issue that is not related to the truck. See if you can get your buddy to send you pics of the lower control arm cams. Having -6 would mean the lower ball joint is "behind" or trailing the upper ball joint. Something doesn't jive.

 

[wfo9]

Something tells me there is another issue that is not related to the truck. See if you can get your buddy to send you pics of the lower control arm cams. Having -6 would mean the lower ball joint is "behind" or trailing the upper ball joint. Something doesn't jive.

Doubt two shops (one being the dealer) is that stupid. But you never know....

He initially took it to the dealer and they told him something was bent and it would not align. I told him to get a sheet, but they told him they did not have one. So, we changed the spindle as it seemed that was the most likely problem and we got one cheap.

He took it to another shop today and they could not get better than -6 caster.

So, it does seem like something is bent and he does wheel it pretty hard and it is loaded up very heavy with bumpers, racks, winch, fridge..... It is a nice truck that is well setup for over landing (water tanks...) It is a beast.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

-6 Degress is a ridiculous amount of negative caster... that LCA is either seriously bent, or the mounts on the frame are pushed back some as well (doubtful.)

 

[Ducmonsta]

Doubt two shops (one being the dealer) is that stupid. But you never know....

He initially took it to the dealer and they told him something was bent and it would not align. I told him to get a sheet, but they told him they did not have one. So, we changed the spindle as it seemed that was the most likely problem and we got one cheap.

He took it to another shop today and they could not get better than -6 caster.

So, it does seem like something is bent and he does wheel it pretty hard and it is loaded up very heavy with bumpers, racks, winch, fridge..... It is a nice truck that is well setup for over landing (water tanks...) It is a beast.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something. Your friends truck won't get any more positive than NEGATIVE 6 degrees of caster on the passenger side? So essentially, the lower ball joint is sitting "behind" the imaginary vertical line from the upper ball joint?

There's always a possibility one of the techs completely folded over the tab for the cam adjusters. That could possibly account for the excessive negative caster. Meaning, the front lower control arm cam adjuster is adjusted waaaayyyy towards the outside of the truck. Or the rear passenger lower control arm cam adjuster is adjusted waaaayyyy towards the inside of the truck.

It's already been stated that the control arm tabs are weak, especially if a tech is cranking down on them without being cautious.

 

[Jeremy556]

Any hard impacts or maintenance before the issue started?
Was it aligned with the same parts previously, with proof of the alignment specs (printout)?
Uniball or BJ arms? If uniball, could the UCA be upside down? Not sure it is even possible, but it would move the top of the spindle way forward.

The LCAs are pretty stout; I think you would tear the bushings or deform the frame ears before bending the LCA.

May want to take some measurements and compare side to side of the LCA and UCA mounts.

 

[wfo9]

The more I think about this the more I think the shop he took it today either has a F'ed up machine, tech, or both.

-6 seems almost impossible without the tire being into the fender. His tires are 33.1", so no way.... and he has no major rubbing.

I talked him through a rough visual estimate and it seems like it was still positive caster. So he is going to try taking it to the dealer tomorrow.

Unfortunately, he is about 1.5hrs away from me...I would really like to take a look.

My new thought is that he just got a total curve ball today and that the original issue may have been the spindle as we suspected. Will know more tomorrow.

Alignments are so darn easy.. but really hard for most people to understand....

 

[wfo9]

Something tells me there is another issue that is not related to the truck. See if you can get your buddy to send you pics of the lower control arm cams. Having -6 would mean the lower ball joint is "behind" or trailing the upper ball joint. Something doesn't jive.

I'm starting to think you are correct... At first I thought two shops can't be wrong, but this is just not adding up.

 

[wfo9]

Any hard impacts or maintenance before the issue started?
Was it aligned with the same parts previously, with proof of the alignment specs (printout)?
Uniball or BJ arms? If uniball, could the UCA be upside down? Not sure it is even possible, but it would move the top of the spindle way forward.

The LCAs are pretty stout; I think you would tear the bushings or deform the frame ears before bending the LCA.

May want to take some measurements and compare side to side of the LCA and UCA mounts.

It has the Camburg ball joint UCAs. In fact, they are my old ones...

The story goes like this. He wheels it pretty hard.. Alignment was never great. He got new tires and took it to get it aligned.. It still pulled but he lived with it. He never asked for the sheets (I know....) Wheeled it hard some more and the pull got much worse. It has taken some hard hits.. but he has full shockworks armor, sliders...He also started to rub in some situations, so I told him to get an alignment. Took it to dealer and they said it would not align well and that something was probably bent (again no sheet). He tired to get it, but they gave him some BS story about the printer... So, we put on a new spindle this weekend thinking that would solve it. I never even looked at the LCA while I did the swap ( I just assumed it was all good). He took it to a different place today (where he had a lifetime alignment) and they told him caster would not get better than -6 on the passenger side. He also just informed me that the sheet they gave him said camber was -15 :bolt: When he told me that, I realized they must be on crack for sure. So we will see if he can find a competent alignment guy where he lives... I keep forgetting how bad these alignment shops can be.

 

[Jono.ful]

op2:

 

[AirspeedX]

Stories like this scare the hell out of me when it comes time for my next alignment.

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[Engineer]

... I keep forgetting how bad these alignment shops can be.

Not saying this is the key to this issue but I could not agree more on this, I called around (Even visited 3 shops) over the past month looking to get a decent alignment. When I explained to one shop what I wanted they said "we only adjust toe", I promptly told them thats not an alignment and then he offered to also cross rotate the tires.....I walked. The local Toyota Dealer and Firestone talked the best game. I ended up going to the local Firestone as they were more "user" friendly and while I wasn't thrilled with the knowledge the alignment tech had the fact that they let me spend an hour back there with him was both a learning experience for me and a frustration but I know the local Toyota deanship wouldn't let me back in the shop. Lets just say it took an hour because I had to connive him that you have to adjust the front Eccentric bolts on the LCA swell as the rear, they were saying the fronts wouldn't move. Ended up getting close to what I wanted, fixed the camber and toe , lost a little caster and think we could have gotten more out of it but it was getting time to wrap up the job.

Alignment is a prime example of where the technology seems to have gotten so advanced that the "training" isn't on the principles its on how to set up the machine and then the techs just "mess with" the bolts till the numbers get back into spec (not all techs by any means....)

 

[Runn4est]

Not saying this is the key to this issue but I could not agree more on this, I called around (Even visited 3 shops) over the past month looking to get a decent alignment. When I explained to one shop what I wanted they said "we only adjust toe", I promptly told them thats not an alignment and then he offered to also cross rotate the tires.....I walked. The local Toyota Dealer and Firestone talked the best game. I ended up going to the local Firestone as they were more "user" friendly and while I wasn't thrilled with the knowledge the alignment tech had the fact that they let me spend an hour back there with him was both a learning experience for me and a frustration but I know the local Toyota deanship wouldn't let me back in the shop. Lets just say it took an hour because I had to connive him that you have to adjust the front Eccentric bolts on the LCA swell as the rear, they were saying the fronts wouldn't move. Ended up getting close to what I wanted, fixed the camber and toe , lost a little caster and think we could have gotten more out of it but it was getting time to wrap up the job.

Alignment is a prime example of where the technology seems to have gotten so advanced that the "training" isn't on the principles its on how to set up the machine and then the techs just "mess with" the bolts till the numbers get back into spec (not all techs by any means....)

Agreed. My wife took ours into a reputable local shop with my very specific set of instructions. She said she could hear them in the shop tweaking then saying, "Oh man! We were so close! Try again.." They spent almost 2 hrs on our alignment, and still only got it just close to what I was hoping.

 

[hikenbike]

Don't make mods to trucks with KDSS. Problem solved. If you do, you're asking from trouble at some point.


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[Jeremy556]

Don't make mods to trucks with KDSS. Problem solved. If you do, you're asking from trouble at some point.


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You think the swaybar has something to do with this? :suspicious: