"Do I need an Auto tech... or a Priest?"

[rigtec]

Hi [MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION],

Glad you're letting us in on some of the dealership's "Best kept secrets" and insight into the how/why they behave the way that they do. You know, I understand that the dealership's don't make money on the warranty work; it's just a necessary evil that has to be done. So the dealers try to direct the techs to look for things that can cause problems, which lead to system failures while the vehicles are still under warranty. The reason that I wanted to speak w/ the technician that was assigned to work on my truck BEFORE he started is because... on the service ticket it said: "Customer complains that the 'ABS', 'BRAKE' and 'SKID' warning lights are on." What I wanted the tech to know is that in addition to those trouble warnings, the entire instrument cluster had lost communication with those systems e.g., TACHOMETER (drops out), SPEEDOMETER (drops out), compass, fuel econ, back-light dimmer (goes dark), 4lo, Steering, TPMS, Seatbelt warning chime ...etc were all showing active warnings.

So this mechanic may have been lead to believe that something was wrong w/ the 'ABS', 'TRAC' and 'BRAKE' systems when in fact it's the warning system itself that has the problem! So you can probably understand why I was so upset with the tech, who had already determined (before connecting to the OBD port) that it was the aftermarket accessories w/o ever hearing what the actual problem/symptoms really were. When I was a much younger tech (HVAC) I remember making some of those very same mistakes, but now that I'm older I recognize the value of slowing it down some in order to avoid jumping to silly conclusions that will cost the shop money, and make me look like a 'just average' trouble-shooter! Best to you!

 

[Biggcrisp]

Why in the frak didn't they at least hook up and try. (comment deleted).

I had a similar experience with a GM dealer and a 2013 truck with emergency lights. The emergency lights were installed by the same professional company that does all the public safety vehicles in my area. Air bag warning light started to illuminate so I took it in. The tech refused to look at it until it was returned to stock. Needless to say the airbag light is still on, and so are the emergency lights.

I am convinced the airbag issue is NOT related to the light work. Money was not the issue. The tech could have replaced every single airbag component until it was fixed and proven one of us right. He was just lazy and incompetent.

Ever go to a local retail store and hear someone say "we don't carry that". That type of mentality is lazy and counter productive. Get the guy what he wants and charge him a fee for getting it. I hate lazy people. Rant over.

 

[1engineer]

A different view:
Suppose your company designed a machine for a specific purpose. Let's say it was designed to lift a heavy load. Just one function. Now, this machine is extremely complex because the load is several million pounds. It has all kinds of complicated systems (electrical , hydraulic, mechanical) and they all interact with each other. Now, let's say the machine has a problem. You send a service team out there and immediately see wires moved, additional lighting systems installed and hoses removed. What do you do?
Its the same issue guys. We have a service team that can be anywhere in the world within 24 hours to troubleshoot and repair any issue and they are good. I have traveled with them countless times. If they show up in Madagascar at a port to work on a crane and the first thing they see is additional wiring, they stop. It now becomes a repair instead of a warranty claim and these guys are expensive. Why? Because you have changed the original design by adding something. Sure, you might have done a better job than we did at it but we don't know that. You could be a jackleg that really screwed up stuff. Our major concern is safety. Once you change the original design we don't know, and therefore can't be responsible, if something happens. I have seen a $30K repair bill for auxiliary lights added to a crane by the operator. It overloaded a circuit he tapped into that happened to control the load cell for the main winch. Parts to fix it? About $100. The week it took to troubleshoot it? About $29,900.

This example is on a different scale that your example. I am not taking up for the tech either because he could have been a dick.
If I modify something, I know there is no warranty. I also know my modifications could influence other systems on a vehicle. If something happens and I can't repair it, I would take it to the shop fully expecting to pay for it and I would let them know up front. I would tell them though that if they do find something unrelated to my modifications I expect warranty to cover it. I am not picking on you [MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION] but we both know most mods done by owners are terrible quality work with no thought to anything else. As a matter of fact it is rare to see quality workmanship come out of a home garage. My .02

 

[Biggcrisp]

Exactly! Your crew fixed the problem. They didn’t shy away and say “oh, it has a light, we aren’t going to touch it” lol

In this case I would hire your guys all day long because they have confidence and control logic troubleshooting skills. The dealer tech was unemployable because he lacked the confidence to do any work at all other than what was by the book.

 

[Jivewalker]

You know, being a technician is all about solving problems. Sounds like this guy is only willing to solve problems he's been trained to solve. He would never work for me. What you have is a challenge and what you need is help. I'm sure you would be fine paying someone to figure it out, and you would learn something that you can use going forward. I troubleshoot systems and equipment all day long that has been modified by the end user. I enjoy helping people make their modifications work. It's in my blood. He lacks that, and unfortunately a lot of technicians are just milking the clock. I also modify systems and equipment every day. As you all know from being a proud 4runner owner, and no offense to any engineers, what looks good and works on paper usually only partially works in the field. I live it and breath it every day for 20 years+ now. soapbox over.
[MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION], you need to find a technician that is a natural born troubleshooter, regardless of modifications you have made. Someone who gives a crap about making things work. If I were you, I would disconnect/reconnect your mods power source one at a time until you find the problem, and then work it out. It may not be a mod causing your issues, and you can determine that fairly easily. I would also take a hard look at your alternator to make sure voltage is consistent.

Brian

 

[1engineer]

You know, being a technician is all about solving problems.... ...I also modify systems and equipment every day. As you all know from being a proud 4runner owner, and no offense to any engineers, what looks good and works on paper usually only partially works in the field. I live it and breath it every day for 20 years+ now.

Brian

So you are willing to assume the liability of the modification? When somebody gets hurt then you are willing to stand behind your "modifications" when it goes to court? You have all the data and calculations to back up your modifications?

There's a reason things are designed the way that they are. Yes, sometimes machines can be optimized to perform better in the field. Just remember, for every "improvement" you make something else will suffer.
Want more lighting? Battery life and alternator suffer.
Want better off road performance? Drivetrain and drivability suffers.
Want more horsepower? Reliability and durability suffer.
And the list goes on.

BTW I have went before a jury to defend my designs and actions. That is a task I wish on no one. All I can say is you had better be prepared especially during depositions when someone who knows nothing about machines and everything about the law can make you look like an idiot.

Modding for yourself is one thing although some of the mods I have read about in this forum are scary and several vehicles here I would never set foot in as they are an accident waiting to happen. On the flip side there are several here that do this stuff for a living and they do it right. Hopefully you don't modify systems and equipment for customers without consulting the engineers, unless you are one.

 

[Jivewalker]

So you are willing to assume the liability of the modification? When somebody gets hurt then you are willing to stand behind your "modifications" when it goes to court? You have all the data and calculations to back up your modifications?

Like I said, no offense to any Engineers, I contract them frequently. If the technician troubleshoots and discovers the problem, he can choose to either fix it, or, tell the customer that he is not comfortable fixing it for whatever reason. Either way, the problem is identified and can be worked out one way or another. He's not even willing to try from what OP says.

Not all modifications have potential to cause harm, and no I would not make, for instance, a structural modification without consulting an engineer. I would however modify a system or machine that improves the efficiency to do the task (after its out of warranty of course). Not all Engineers are created equal. I've had some great engineers work for me, and some not so great. I'm currently trying to replace a system that an engineer designed that has zero maintenance access and components that are too large to fit through doors. The new design will be by an engineer based on my instruction and careful review. Had the original design been proper, I'd be replacing components not full systems. I see it every day.

So to answer your question, Yes, I stand behind my modifications and I'm happy to say that I've been improving designs, machines, systems and processes successfully for a good long time without injuring anyone.

 

[Intruder]

He's not even willing to try from what OP says.

Keep in mind there are always three sides to every story and you're only hearing one of them.

 

[Jivewalker]

Keep in mind there are always three sides to every story and you're only hearing one of them.

That's a great point. I'm just interested in what the problem turns out to be and how they figure it out.

 

[wfo9]

[MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION],

I had a very similar problem with another vehicle (not a 4 runner or Toyota). Your symptoms sound identical. Mine would often be triggered by a weather change. The dash would light up and all the gauges would spin...... The difference I had was that it would often snap back to normal for a few days. It got worse over time.

I was in a similar boat, since this car was highly modified (different motor, roll cage, tons of race related electronics that I had installed) although I did still have the stock ECU and BCM... in place. The ECU had been highly modified with a non standard OS and calibration. It was a LSX powered GM corvette.

Even though I was technically still under a mfg warranty, I did not even bother taking it to a dealer, since I knew they would turn me away. Plus I would never trust anyone to touch this car besides myself.

It turned out to be the gauge cluster. I came to that conclusion pretty quickly, since all of the data on the internal BUS was correct and everything besides the gauge cluster worked fine. I just kept getting COM errors. Those were the only codes ever thrown. I obviously had a really good scanner and all the software required to troubleshoot it.

I ended up buying a used gauge cluster from a salvage off ebay for $200 and that solved it. The only downside to doing that was that I ended up with the Odometer reading from the donor car (which was much higher than my actual miles). It did not really matter much, since this car was such a one off at this point. I still own it and it still works fine.

I know it is a totally different setup, but your problem sounds very similar. The gauge clusters these days are very much just another node on the network. Think of it as a monitor with a small embedded device. They are typically outsourced and many are built by the same folks. In my case it was a Delphi unit.

 

[rigtec]

"...I am not picking on you @rigtec but we both know most mods done by owners are terrible quality work with no thought to anything else..."

'No offense taken by this'!

This is why I said (straight off of the line) to the 'Toyota Service Consultant' that I realize that I voided my warranty by modifying the electrical system. That does not suggest, however, that there was no need to run tests on the system diagnostic bank(s) to evaluate and determine the actual cause of the trouble. To me, this is where honesty and experience need to come to the table... together! Now I've been a commercial hvac systems troubleshooter for a good long time; close to thirty years. When I go to a 'No cooling' job, I usually don't know what I'm going to find before I get there unless I've been there before and have written the problem up myself. But normally it's important for me 'NOT' to guess at a cooling shutdown before I go there because you can "very easily" become so inundated w/your own prejudice theory that you become blind to all of the clues that the equipment is 'literally' throwing at you during the call! The 'Honesty & Experience' that I mentioned earlier comes in when (for example) I go to a job and learn that another service company (a competitor) has been there (for an unknown reason) while this customer is under a full maintenance contract w/us.

NOTE: "A full maintenance contract means that the customer has 'Prepaid' us for ALL maintenance, diagnostics and repair work that may be needed for a predetermined duration and very specific list of equipment throughout the facility or facilities." Seeing the evidence of another contractor's work in the mechanical room/Penthouse could be grounds for automatic dissolution of the terms of our contract... 'However'... I believe I still have a moral obligation to the customer and a technical responsibility to myself to determine just what actually caused the unscheduled system shut-down. So I start snooping around the room and I see in one of the electrical control cabinets that some of the 'Status indicator' LED's are off. Upon further investigation I find that the "Power Supply" to the 'Logic Control Modules' dropped out as a result of a burned control circuit X-fmr (transformer).

MY POINT: Whether the loss of the X-fmr was a result of a mistake made by the other service contractor, or a simple power spike by the electrical utility company, that isn't really relevant right now. what is relevant now is that 'our customer' is in crisis at that moment. There's a million dollars of air conditioning equipment not working in the room; which means that there are also health code violations that need mitigating and that's why I'm here. As far as their contractual agreement with us... it will be reviewed at some point in the near future, but as a technician I need to find out just why the equipment isn't running, and with no guessing or weaving in some esoteric theory about how this other service company somehow (or indirectly) caused this shutdown to take place 'unless' there was a deliberate act of vandalism; that's a game changer!

My point is this: A technician (auto or machinery), has a responsibility... To figure out Exactly what's going on with the vehicle or equipment, and should be able to fully explain any theory by which he may believe as to the cause of a system failure. He or she should never offer the customer an emotional or theoretically based answer without being willing to sit down w/ them and talk in clear lay-persons terminology, so that when that customer leaves the shop, they feel like you just helped them, even if you did need to explain to them that e.g., "by raising the height of the vehicle, you've changed the geometry of the steering linkage, thus voiding your warranty on some parts." 'No need to leave a customer feeling orphaned or bastardized' Rgds!

 

[wfo9]

Unfortunately, most (not all) techs are strictly in it for the money and don't take any pride in their work. The mindset in many service departments is 100% profit based, customer satisfaction is an afterthought and they only care about it as survey results can cut into their bonus. It's really sad, but they often get paid x $s to troubleshoot, x$s to perform x service. If the time runs over, they don't make good money. This is why they hate anything that is not cookie cutter. It is also why they rip off customers by replacing perfectly good parts vs troubleshooting properly.

I know a guy that is a master tech at a Toyota dealership here and he was just complaining to me about people who run wheel locks. He says it cuts into his take home pay when he has to waste time looking for the lock and taking them off. That gives you an idea of the mentality.

In this case it is ridiculous to think the mods you have made should void the warranty in any way. This is not rocket science, it is simple modifications that vehicles should be designed to deal with. And they can be quickly eliminated as a source of the problem (turn amps off, test alternator output, take a few voltage readings....). I have obviously not seen the work, but my guess is that the tech is just being "lazy". Did he really not even hook up the scanner to the diagnostic port. If not, he is a complete idiot. I hate dealers so much. There are a few good really sharp techs out there (sounds like [MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION] is one of them ).

I seriously doubt your modifications have anything to do with the problem.

You need to get a TIS cable and see if any codes are present. Like I said before, I'm betting on the cluster being bad.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

A different view:
Suppose your company designed a machine for a specific purpose. Let's say it was designed to lift a heavy load. Just one function. Now, this machine is extremely complex because the load is several million pounds. It has all kinds of complicated systems (electrical , hydraulic, mechanical) and they all interact with each other. Now, let's say the machine has a problem. You send a service team out there and immediately see wires moved, additional lighting systems installed and hoses removed. What do you do?
Its the same issue guys. We have a service team that can be anywhere in the world within 24 hours to troubleshoot and repair any issue and they are good. I have traveled with them countless times. If they show up in Madagascar at a port to work on a crane and the first thing they see is additional wiring, they stop. It now becomes a repair instead of a warranty claim and these guys are expensive. Why? Because you have changed the original design by adding something. Sure, you might have done a better job than we did at it but we don't know that. You could be a jackleg that really screwed up stuff. Our major concern is safety. Once you change the original design we don't know, and therefore can't be responsible, if something happens. I have seen a $30K repair bill for auxiliary lights added to a crane by the operator. It overloaded a circuit he tapped into that happened to control the load cell for the main winch. Parts to fix it? About $100. The week it took to troubleshoot it? About $29,900.

This example is on a different scale that your example. I am not taking up for the tech either because he could have been a dick.
If I modify something, I know there is no warranty. I also know my modifications could influence other systems on a vehicle. If something happens and I can't repair it, I would take it to the shop fully expecting to pay for it and I would let them know up front. I would tell them though that if they do find something unrelated to my modifications I expect warranty to cover it. I am not picking on you [MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION] but we both know most mods done by owners are terrible quality work with no thought to anything else. As a matter of fact it is rare to see quality workmanship come out of a home garage. My .02

I agree with this quite a bit and it's why when it comes down to it possibly being a warranty claim, almost all dealerships default to "its not stock, warranty is not applicable/voided" without bothering to double check if its even related.

But in [MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION]'s case he already went in expecting that it was not a warranty case and even thinking that one or more mods might actually be a cause/contributing factor. The real f***-up here is that this is a customer who went into the dealership ready to NOT throw a hissy fit if they told him it wouldn't be covered under warranty (as long as it was legitimate) and he was more than willing to plunk down the money for the diagnostic fee.

At this point the following things are made clear between the three parties (Service Writer, Technician, and Customer):

• The vehicle warranty may not be applicable to this issue (Customer is informed & acknowledges this)
• Customer authorizes Diagnostic Work in lieu of possible charges incurred if issue is not under warranty.
• Service Writer has made it clear that the vehicle will be treated as a "Diagnostic/Repair" operation should warranty not apply and appropriate Customer Transaction operation code fees are applied.
• Technician is now responsible to determine if vehicle meets warranty guidelines based upon diagnostics.
• Technician is now responsible for attempting to diagnose vehicle as value for the Customer Transaction of Goods & Services as per agreed upon rate (i.e. $45 Diagnostic Fee with .8hrs allocated to the technician

The failure here is that the technician failed to fulfill his end of the bargin and provided essentially a breach in the contract made between the Service Writer and Customer. Luckily for the Technician, the Service Writer voided the fee in lieu of the breach in the agreement (which means the technician has now lost their time if the Service Writer is smart) and the customer has little to no grounds for recourse beyond verbal dismay (i.e. going to service manager and bringing up his dissatisfaction of services rendered, or in this case attempted to be rendered.)

To compliment your analogy, it'd be like your team coming to a work site and going, "well your junction block for the hydraulics is not factory and is not routed like factory! You have no grounds for a warranty claim in regards to your hydraulic issue." Then the work site manager says, "okay, that's fine; but we need the crane running! So we'll pay you out of pocket to diagnose it and hopefully fix it." Now your guys just say, "nope, not warranty, pay us $29,900 and call us back again when you put it back to stock!"

That's the really s***** part here, the job went from Warranty to Customer Pay (which was already authorized and understood by all parties involved) and the technician just wanted an easy .8hrs by not doing more than just saying, "its not factory so I don't want to touch it; give me your money."

 

[rigtec]

"...You know, being a technician is all about solving problems..."

:usa2: Hi Jivewalker,

You know that, and I know that, and most of our problem solving community team members would agree with that. But some (I hate to even say it but it's true) are not gifted with mechanical talent or to think analytically as a true technician thinks; it's different. You know over the years, I've seen a lot of young guys aspiring to become mechanics go through trade school... they go for maybe ten months or a year. But when they come out, they can't fix anything! They come to the company on their first day. The boss sends them with me or one of the other guys to show them around a little, you know, show them how to do the paperwork and their time card... and check them out and see if you think he has any potential to become a shinning star mechanic lol!

So you try to help him out with whatever he may need throughout the day, you know he's gonna be a little nervous the first couple days so you try to build his confidence some, you know, tell him... "oh look how good you are doing washing those coils over there man... that's really nice!" But after a few weeks you know... He's not ever going to become a mechanic because one thing is missing... That undeniable gift! There's no substitute for that, and you cannot buy that, you're either born with it or not! I say that because... "what happens to those who don't ever become any good, but don't ever give up or quit?" ...What happens when they don't take your advice and find something else (not mechanic) to do w/themselves but keep on trying to be a mechanic? 'NOTHING', that's what happens! Probably they come and work for a Toyota dealership! Hahaha! They say: "Oh, look you have aftermarket lights on your truck... that will cause the ECM, BCM, PCU and EGR TOO, to go... 'POOF'! I can't fix that unless you "take it off!" Hahaha! Just kidding! lol

"...What you have is a challenge and what you need is help. ...you need to find a technician that is a natural born troubleshooter, regardless of modifications you have made. Someone who gives a crap about making things work..."

I know... Maybe I need to move to "Haystack" CA. Then [MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION]. can be my mechanic, "Problem Solved"! :first:

[MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION],

I had a very similar problem with another vehicle (not a 4 runner or Toyota). Your symptoms sound identical. Mine would often be triggered by a weather change. The dash would light up and all the gauges would spin...... The difference I had was that it would often snap back to normal for a few days. It got worse over time... ...It turned out to be the gauge cluster. I came to that conclusion pretty quickly, since all of the data on the internal BUS was correct and everything besides the gauge cluster worked fine... ...I still own it and it still works fine..."

What you've offered here may not be so very off. I know that the warnings that I'm getting are false because it's 'ALL OF THEM!' Just about everything on the cluster is either lit up, going dark, or spinning around like the TACH and SPEEDO! Plus I checked stuff like '4LO' the T/C works just fine. STEERING works fine, full to the brim and no leaks! ...etc.

"...Did he really not even hook up the scanner to the diagnostic port..."

Hahaha... Yes, he really did not wfo9, ...no he definitely did not! :nono: (He was too busy ranting and taunting me, as if he'd uncovered some big secret; like "The riddle of the sphinx")

rigtec, Hahaha! cheers

 

[wfo9]

Just throwing this out there, but what they are doing to you is technically illegal.

SEMA has a huge lobby that has set a ton of legal precedence around this.

Under the Magnuson-Moss Act, a dealer must prove, not just vocalize, that aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before it can deny warranty coverage. If the dealer cannot prove such a claim — or it proffers a questionable explanation — it is your legal right to demand compliance with the warranty. The Federal Trade Commission administers the Magnuson-Moss Act and monitors compliance with warranty law.

Stand in front of that lazy ass tech with your phone recording and ask him to prove it and put it in writing. Then watch him squirm and post it here so we can all get a kick.

It's fine for them to tell you that it will not be covered if it is proven to be caused by your modifications, but the burden of proof is on them, not you.

 

[rigtec]

"...Just throwing this out there, but what they are doing to you is technically illegal. SEMA has a huge lobby that has set a ton of legal precedence around this. ...Stand in front of that LAZY ASS tech with your phone recording and ask him to prove it and put it in writing. Then watch him squirm and post it here so we can all get a kick. ...It's fine for them to tell you that it will not be covered if it is proven to be caused by your modifications, "but the burden of proof is on them, not you."

Hahaha!! You're incredibly funny(!) and a really smart fellow! ...'a lil bitter' perhaps, but really smart and funny! lol!

rigtec, hahahaha...

 

[wfo9]

Yea rigtec, I am a little bitter. Just a tad LOL.

I started to type out all the reasons why, but I'm not going to waste my time or anyone elses go on a long rant.

I'll just summarize by saying that I have had run-ins with some misguided folks at dealerships and various service departments. They just seem to think they have a license to print money and don't have to really add value. I hope that changes some day.

 

[rigtec]

Hi [MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION]

I have a question for you...

Right before I left the Dealership the last time, the S/Consultant said to me... "the tech said that the OBD port stopped communicating and there were no codes but one of your BCM's are shut-off; he just doesn't know which one or where it's located..." I asked him how do we determine which one and where it is and he said, you just have to start taking stuff apart! Then he handed me the information about the guy they use when they have a problem (ATOW) "See their video link in my previous post #59."

I would've liked for their guru to look at it so I called him. He told me that the way it works is, he comes out and works at the tech's shop. He'll instruct the mechanic to check this and that, another words 'they'll take the vehicle apart' while he does the diagnostics. So he asked me if I have a mechanic that I used to work on my truck and I told him that Toyota was my mechanic because up til now, the truck was under their warranty; still only has 9,750 on the clock.

So he said to see if I can find a shop in my area and he'd meet me there. I tried but none of the shops around here seem to want to get involved w/ this; which I can understand because first off, I'm a first time customer, and they don't know him. Plus having his truck there in their driveway suggests or may imply that they don't know what the fuk they're doing... on top of which, I now have to pay not one, but two repair shops "at the same time" just to have it looked at and have NO IDEA what they'll find or how much it's going to cost... "there goes the Christmas budget" :sadwave:

Here's the thing... Due to certain behavioral symtoms I've watched over the last few wks, I believe that the problem is related only to the "Instrument cluster" warning system CAN or related bus path. All of the systems in the truck are good and working as they should; other than the erroneous warning lights blinking. Is there a way that I can try to isolate this w/o all of these "SPECIALISTS" getting involved? ...Starting to stress me out! One more thing, "TechStream" has a 'LONG LIST' of scan tools/cables/downloads available and prices seem to range quite a bit? Can you recommend 'Just ONE' for approaching this particular type of problem? Thanks!

 

[Ducmonsta]

Is there a way that I can try to isolate this w/o all of these "SPECIALISTS" getting involved?

Yup. Put the stock alternator back in.

 

[rigtec]

Yup. Put the stock alternator back in.

First of all That's not a legitimate diagnosis; you sound as bad or worse than the sorry ass "technician" at Toyota last week... and that's what this second part of this updated thread is all about... "His Ineptitude"! BlackWorks spent a considerable amount of time explaining exactly what this mechanic did wrong (ihho) or should have done w/the time spent. Don't you understand... we're trying to understand exactly what's caused this trouble, and no more fairy tales like... if I wish real hard and just believe that it's true... then it will be true! "Give me a break!"

Even if I were to remove the alternator, put the original back in and it started working correctly, you still wouldn't be able to explain exactly why it worked! so I need to examine every theory 'BEFORE' implementing it! I just don't have the time or money to throw around swapping parts to figure this out; most of the guys here already understand that... swapping parts is not troubleshooting! It must work on paper (or in theory) first! there is NO rational theory under which to surmise that this alternator has caused this trouble without embracing some 'old wives tale superstition bull ship'. The only reason to ever default to that as a theory would be if we had tried 'EVERYTHING ELSE' already and there was nothing else left to check... and we haven't even been able to check the OBDII port properly yet!

rigtec