"Do I need an Auto tech... or a Priest?"

[Ducmonsta]

First of all, you didn't ask for a "diagnoses" when I quoted you. You "simply" asked for what you can 'try' to do to "eliminate" the 'specialists' getting involved.

This is the first thing to try. You think there's actually something else wrong with your truck that has nothing to do with your "professional ASE certified installation" of your aftermarket alternator at 9k miles?!

I think that technician did you a favor. I would be thankful he didn't get involved with touching your truck. He may have done nothing else but cause you further headache. He's most likely ASE certified like you are. He's not trained to be a "diagnostician". He can only work within the parameters of what he's learned through his basic automotive training with Toyota. And I guarantee it never involved aftermarket support and what aftermarket components will do to factory systems.

Factory modules are very sensitive to resistance and voltage inputs/outputs. All it could take is a "slight" 2v change within a system that is only supposed to receive 5v such as body control modules and such. Let's not even begin with changing the impedance of what a particular circuit is supposed to see. Even an extremely qualified technician will chase his tail if he doesn't understand that a particular module is supposed to have 5v reference. When all of a sudden it sees a spike to 6v because an 'aftermarket' alternator's regulator causes it only when you tap the brakes while slightly turning the steering wheel which slightly changes the resistance in the belt drive system while the a/c kicks on.

I'm surprised that others want to jump on this techs back because he refused to lose money working on your truck. If that service writer truly wanted to charge you an hour of labor for talking to the tech, then shame on him. He's a moron and a sleezeball. The only way a Toyota dealership technician should work on your truck should be hourly. If you consent to unlimited diagnostic hours, I bet he'll find the problem. As long as you bring your factory alternator back with your truck.

The way I see it, you have three choices.
1. Put the GD, effin, factory alternator back in yourself and see what happens (I honestly don't see what the big deal is about putting it back it, other than your time to do it).
2. Get your tech stream equipment and start learning how to use it and figure it out.
3. Pay someone else to fix it for you without a limit of diagnostic time/fee.

And here's the extra credit choice...
4. You can continue to whine about your experiences with inept (ASE Certified) technicians and dealership employees to your heart's content while your dashboard stays lit up like a Christmas tree. Tis the season!

 

[soze]

While I can't speak for [MENTION=68685]Ducmonsta[/MENTION], I read his reply as: either you are the specialist (with T4R support), you hire a specialist, or you revert to a state where a specialist is no longer required.

There's good advice in this thread that should help narrow/isolate the issue. Scan tools will provide some detail. I suspect that once voltage (expected, actual, over/under, stability) at battery, alternator, dash, etc. is known - break out the multimeter - productive lines of inquiry will emerge.

 

[soze]

...and apparently he can type 10x faster.

 

[rigtec]

"Yea rigtec, I am a little bitter. Just a tad LOL.

I started to type out all the reasons why, but I'm not going to waste my time or anyone elses go on a long rant..."

Hi wfo9,

No, that wouldn't be necessary. Number 1, I was kidding w/you about that! Not too many ppl here really know me but I love to poke at people that I like and make-um laugh or react to something I did or said. I do that to get to know them better by suddenly taking them out of their "Comfort Zone" and placing them in unfamiliar territory (like when a stranger startles you) and smashing the (very common) brick wall facade that people hide behind for social protection! I do that because I think there's no better way to get to know who a person really is than when they're vulnerable and w/o the fake costume and mask! I've made some of my very best friends that way (on forums and in general)! Hope you don't take it offensively...

rigtec, cheers ("Happy Holidays")

 

[rigtec]

"...I'm surprised that others want to jump on this techs back because he refused to lose money working on your truck. If that service writer truly wanted to charge you an hour of labor for talking to the tech, then shame on him. He's a moron and a sleezeball..."

There are quite a few really good people that I've met here who make this forum what it is e.g., a great place to spend time and share ideas, information, talk about mods that we'd love to do or spend time exchanging photos of the machines that we love (or would love) to drive to work everyday. And then there's the others who have (imo) very poor social skills, barely know how to talk to others without saying something sarcastic or insulting. Who live in a narcissistic bubble and love to talk down to the members of their very own team; exposing the... bad attitude that their sooo very proud of. I could be wrong, but some things are more important than figuring out some problem with a truck, on the internet during the Holidays, much more important!

PS: Even if I thought that you were right about some part of your post... I think I'll pass. Thanks anyway

 

[wfo9]

No reason for people to get all pissy in this thread. And there is no excuse for what the last tech did.... At least not based on what is presented here.

Like I stated before, They believe they have a right to make x$s per hour, customer satisfaction is second to that. If you are a source of profit to them (> 50$ per hour) they will work with you and kiss your ass. Otherwise, they don't want to deal with you. it's a very short sighted way to do business, but I guess it works as they all seem to be doing just fine considering all the suckers out there that accept it.


Back to the problem. Swapping back the alternator to stock might not be a horrible idea. I would do it, simply because it would not take me much time (If I had it handy). Sometimes that is part of troubleshooting and it is the very reason I pretty much do all my own work compared to allowing the inept jokers at the dealership do it. (Again, no offense to the competent guys. I know there are some of you out there).

However, It is not the "smart" thing to do. Reading the diagnostic information available in the system should always be the first place to start. If that won't provide any data, then you have to start taking a few guesses and following the troubleshooting guides. I have done very little work on Toyotas, but with GM vehicles, the shop repair manuals are amazingly detailed with tons of simple troubleshooting steps for all of the electronics. Anyone with a brain and the proper tools, can pretty much diagnose any problem that is electronics related in 1 hr. The stuff I have seen from Toyota is garbage in comparison, but I'm sure the dealers (remember the guys with the license to print money) have the real guides.

As far as this being the alternator. I'm still not convinced. Sure you can spout of BS about voltage changes... but I know of hardly a single sensor or "smart component" in any modern vehicle that does not use a regulated supply internally. Many of the sensors output voltages or frequencies, but those are completely isolated from the alternator. If that was not the case, nothing would ever work. Those IC regulators do have max inputs, but the tolerances are generally very high and when they go, they go and don't just act odd. I'm not saying it is out of the question, but I think it is unlikely. The one aspect of the alternator that I would be slightly concerned with is EMI, but considering the car is running fine...

Here is a darn simple question. How long was this aftermarket equipment in place, before the symptoms started showing up?

And one more thing rigtec, I have to disagree with you on this.

Even if I were to remove the alternator, put the original back in and it started working correctly, you still wouldn't be able to explain exactly why it worked!

Although, technically a true statement, I think it is an unreasonable assertion. If the above was the case, you would just need to move and accept that fact that it can be too expensive (and not worth anyone's time) to get down to the exact cause of a problem.

 

[Intruder]

And then there's the others who have (imo) very poor social skills, barely know how to talk to others without saying something sarcastic or insulting. Who live in a narcissistic bubble and love to talk down to the members of their very own team; exposing the... bad attitude that their sooo very proud of.

I really hope you aren't talking about [MENTION=68685]Ducmonsta[/MENTION] because he's helped tons of people on this forum both via posts and in person working on their trucks. He's tried to help you several times but you've already got your mind made up that there's no way any of this can possibly be because of something you've done to the truck. You seem to only be interested in blaming others for your problems. I'm honestly surprised you haven't found a way to blame Obama for this yet.

Since you put the alternator in yourself I don't see why you wouldn't swap it back yourself. One of two things will happen. 1. It will correct the problem. 2. It won't correct the problem and now it's back to stock so the tech will be willing to work on it and find the problem. Sounds win-win to me. But of course you don't want to do that because then it won't give you something/someone to rant and rave about in quotes, caps, bold, italics, and underlined.

Like I stated before, They believe they have a right to make x$s per hour, customer satisfaction is second to that. If you are a source of profit to them (> 50$ per hour) they will work with you and kiss your ass. Otherwise, they don't want to deal with you. it's a very short sighted way to do business, but I guess it works as they all seem to be doing just fine considering all the suckers out there that accept it.

Yeah god forbid that someone would want to make money for doing their job so they can pay the rent and feed themselves. If someone brought me something that they screwed up and asked me to fix it for free or far less than I normally make I don't think I'd be too eager either.

Anyhow, I'm done with this shit show of a thread. Have fun!

 

[Antman]

There are quite a few really good people that I've met here who make this forum what it is e.g., a great place to spend time and share ideas, information, talk about mods that we'd love to do or spend time exchanging photos of the machines that we love (or would love) to drive to work everyday. And then there's the others who have (imo) very poor social skills, barely know how to talk to others without saying something sarcastic or insulting. Who live in a narcissistic bubble and love to talk down to the members of their very own team; exposing the... bad attitude that their sooo very proud of. I could be wrong, but some things are more important than figuring out some problem with a truck, on the internet during the Holidays, much more important!

I really hope you aren't talking about [MENTION=68685]Ducmonsta[/MENTION] because he's helped tons of people on this forum both via posts and in person working on their trucks. He's tried to help you several times but you've already got your mind made up that there's no way any of this can possibly be because of something you've done to the truck. You seem to only be interested in blaming others for your problems. I'm honestly surprised you haven't found a way to blame Obama for this yet.

Absolutely he is talking about [MENTION=68685]Ducmonsta[/MENTION]; who happens to be one of the most helpful and GENEROUS members of this Forum.

I'm pretty pissed off that you would even go there with him Greg- just because you didn't like his response..? And then to write "having very poor social skills, barely know how to talk to others without saying something sarcastic or insulting. Who live in a narcissistic bubble and love to talk down to the members of their very own team." Now I'm really fvcking pissed off!

I know Bobby can take care of himself here but he's really too good of a guy to respond to this crap post about him. I'm not. So there you go.

Bullshit, dammit. Get off your high horse buddy and appreciate the people on here, like Ducmonsta, that are ALWAYS willing to help.

 

[Ducmonsta]

[MENTION=65614]Antman[/MENTION] [MENTION=66300]Intruder[/MENTION]
I'm absolutely humbled by your words and appreciate the sentiments. Honestly, I really didn't take those words by rigtec to be directed towards me. If he did, then I'm just blind.
[MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION] has handled this in the most subjective manner so far. He's explained both sides of the coin. The only views that I may not necessarily agree with within his posts and those of [MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION] is the qualifications of this particular tech. If this technician does not have the capabilities nor the desire to diagnose this problem, then he shouldn't have to. But I'm willing to bet if his diagnostic time was unlimited, he would begin to work on the truck. But it's not fair for someone to say he should do it for 1hr. Because I guarantee this is what would happen.

The tech would spend the appropriate amount of time (1hr) to determine what codes have come up and follow the diagnostic flow chart of what to check. He might come up with an answer immediately or more than likely follow the flow chart to determine that there isn't anything wrong. The flow chart may lead him to check the resistance and voltages at certain pins to eliminate other possibilities. His hour would run out and then he'd have to tell the service writer that he needed more time. Then rigtec would be forced to pay the hr diag. without getting much further in the problem other than finding out what the tech did during the flow chart test. I'd be surprised if rigtec would be satisfied with the techs response after spending $125. He would feel "ripped off" because he got nothing other than, "everything checks out according to Toyota's flow chart. So please reinstall the factory alternator and let's determine if that's the cause."

Rigtec, I can appreciate your efforts to your quest to determine what the cause of your warning lights are. I understand that reinstalling the factory alternator will not answer that question of why. In my opinion, it's not worth finding out if it can be eliminated from the equation. I don't seem to recall that the alternator you sourced was intended for our application. At least, I haven't heard of an alternator that went through the proper R&D to fit our trucks.

I truly hope you find out what's actually wrong with the truck and let us know what and how everything came about.

But, hey guys, at least it's not an icy wiper situation. :bolt:

 

[alico268]

First of all, you didn't ask for a "diagnoses" when I quoted you. You "simply" asked for what you can 'try' to do to "eliminate" the 'specialists' getting involved.

This is the first thing to try. You think there's actually something else wrong with your truck that has nothing to do with your "professional ASE certified installation" of your aftermarket alternator at 9k miles?!

I think that technician did you a favor. I would be thankful he didn't get involved with touching your truck. He may have done nothing else but cause you further headache. He's most likely ASE certified like you are. He's not trained to be a "diagnostician". He can only work within the parameters of what he's learned through his basic automotive training with Toyota. And I guarantee it never involved aftermarket support and what aftermarket components will do to factory systems.

Factory modules are very sensitive to resistance and voltage inputs/outputs. All it could take is a "slight" 2v change within a system that is only supposed to receive 5v such as body control modules and such. Let's not even begin with changing the impedance of what a particular circuit is supposed to see. Even an extremely qualified technician will chase his tail if he doesn't understand that a particular module is supposed to have 5v reference. When all of a sudden it sees a spike to 6v because an 'aftermarket' alternator's regulator causes it only when you tap the brakes while slightly turning the steering wheel which slightly changes the resistance in the belt drive system while the a/c kicks on.

I'm surprised that others want to jump on this techs back because he refused to lose money working on your truck. If that service writer truly wanted to charge you an hour of labor for talking to the tech, then shame on him. He's a moron and a sleezeball. The only way a Toyota dealership technician should work on your truck should be hourly. If you consent to unlimited diagnostic hours, I bet he'll find the problem. As long as you bring your factory alternator back with your truck.

The way I see it, you have three choices.
1. Put the GD, effin, factory alternator back in yourself and see what happens (I honestly don't see what the big deal is about putting it back it, other than your time to do it).
2. Get your tech stream equipment and start learning how to use it and figure it out.
3. Pay someone else to fix it for you without a limit of diagnostic time/fee.

And here's the extra credit choice...
4. You can continue to whine about your experiences with inept (ASE Certified) technicians and dealership employees to your heart's content while your dashboard stays lit up like a Christmas tree. Tis the season!

Perfect blend of satirical wit and grace in this post. Rig, he's trying to help you with solid advice given the situation you're in. Just give it some consideration.

 

[wfo9]

Oh geeze, here we go with forum drama.

Just put that crap to the side for a second. Remember, people only see the words you type in that one response and don't know who you really are. I would say both the OP and some of the responses to him are a little out of line. I'm no saint myself, but I try to avoid personal attacks on people here. I will admit I despise most dealers and the inept service departments.

Yeah god forbid that someone would want to make money for doing their job so they can pay the rent and feed themselves. If someone brought me something that they screwed up and asked me to fix it for free or far less than I normally make I don't think I'd be too eager either.

You are totally missing the point and obviously did not read the entire post. It is one thing to get paid for actual work, it is another to avoid challenging work because you are inept. It is also illegal to not honor a warranty without proof that the aftermarket part is the cause of the issue (read the law). It is the cost of doing business and dealers/automakers need to pay up. You also tend to gain customers for life by doing this. It has paid off a million times over for me. Sure I've been up late nights... and not seen immediate cash for ever minute spent fixing problems that are sometimes not related to my product... I can't imagine doing it any other way, but I guess some people have the "luxury" of operating this way.

And it is Obama's fault, LOL.

 

[Titanpat57]

Hey rigtec...why don't you go eat a bag of
c ocks...seriously...

you're inane post, idiotic quotations, and insults on knowledgeable people are a bit too much to bare anymore.

You're the braintrust with a certificate in his Sig line....why in the F don't you just figure it out and and enlighten us amateurs when you get it done.

As far as implying your bull s hit line at Bobby...he forget more about this shit than you'll ever know.

 

[Ducmonsta]

Hey rigtec...why don't you go eat a bag of
c ocks...seriously...

you're inane post, idiotic quotations, and insults on knowledgeable people are a bit too much to bare anymore.

You're the braintrust with a certificate in his Sig line....why in the F don't you just figure it out and and enlighten us amateurs when you get it done.

As far as implying your bull s hit line at Bobby...he forget more about this shit than you'll ever know.

I truly appreciate the way some of you guys have my back here. But let's put things into perspective. This is the internet. I have some pretty thick skin and I didn't even think that rigtec was addressing me specifically. Again, maybe I'm just blind. But I'd like to propose that this be the last post regarding rigtec's comments towards me (if in fact it was directed towards me).

You are totally missing the point and obviously did not read the entire post. It is one thing to get paid for actual work, it is another to avoid challenging work because you are inept. It is also illegal to not honor a warranty without proof that the aftermarket part is the cause of the issue (read the law). It is the cost of doing business and dealers/automakers need to pay up. You also tend to gain customers for life by doing this. It has paid off a million times over for me. Sure I've been up late nights... and not seen immediate cash for ever minute spent fixing problems that are sometimes not related to my product... I can't imagine doing it any other way, but I guess some people have the "luxury" of operating this way.

And it is Obama's fault, LOL.

Let's break this down a little. You are correct in stating that a dealer has to prove an aftermarket product caused failure to a warrantable part. But, that dealer has an option to work on that vehicle. They are not required to service his truck because it is under warranty. If they are uncomfortable working with a truck with aftermarket components, they have a right to refuse service. Just as simple as someone coming into a place of business without a shirt on where it is required. I feel very certain that Toyota will stand behind every dealer that refuses service to a vehicle that has been modified because the technician is not familiar with the aftermarket components. You simply cannot force someone to work on something they don't know how to. It's almost like having a Toyota under warranty and expecting a Mercedes dealer to work on it. I'm sure a tech at Mercedes could probably fix it properly, but they're not trained to.

This particular tech may have refused the work because:
1. He didn't want to
2. He didn't know how to fix it
3. He knew he wasn't going to get paid properly for it

I'd also like to address your earlier comment about dealerships not getting paid for warranty work. They do. It's usually about 1/2 to 3/4 of the time it would normally pay. And there are plenty of techs that absolutely love warranty work because they've done it so many times that it actually takes 1/4 of the time to do it. I know Ford techs that love replacing rear differentials in Ford Escapes because it takes all of 25 mins and pays 3 hrs.

Your experience leads me to believe you work or used to work for an independent shop. Many times, those problem jobs you get are coming FROM the dealership or another shop that couldn't fix it. That's why you generate good long term relationships with those clients. You will absolutely reap the benefits of a long term business relationship with those people because you are the "only guy in town" that will touch their vehicle. It would be very difficult for dealerships to do that because there is little to no relationship between the tech and consumer. That's the job of the service writer. And unfortunately, they are hard to come by. If you find a good one, stick with them even when they go to a different dealership.

 

[wfo9]

Let's break this down a little. You are correct in stating that a dealer has to prove an aftermarket product caused failure to a warrantable part. But, that dealer has an option to work on that vehicle. They are not required to service his truck because it is under warranty. If they are uncomfortable working with a truck with aftermarket components, they have a right to refuse service. Just as simple as someone coming into a place of business without a shirt on where it is required. I feel very certain that Toyota will stand behind every dealer that refuses service to a vehicle that has been modified because the technician is not familiar with the aftermarket components. You simply cannot force someone to work on something they don't know how to. It's almost like having a Toyota under warranty and expecting a Mercedes dealer to work on it. I'm sure a tech at Mercedes could probably fix it properly, but they're not trained to.

This particular tech may have refused the work because:
1. He didn't want to
2. He didn't know how to fix it
3. He knew he wasn't going to get paid properly for it

I'd also like to address your earlier comment about dealerships not getting paid for warranty work. They do. It's usually about 1/2 to 3/4 of the time it would normally pay. And there are plenty of techs that absolutely love warranty work because they've done it so many times that it actually takes 1/4 of the time to do it. I know Ford techs that love replacing rear differentials in Ford Escapes because it takes all of 25 mins and pays 3 hrs.

Your experience leads me to believe you work or used to work for an independent shop. Many times, those problem jobs you get are coming FROM the dealership or another shop that couldn't fix it. That's why you generate good long term relationships with those clients. You will absolutely reap the benefits of a long term business relationship with those people because you are the "only guy in town" that will touch their vehicle. It would be very difficult for dealerships to do that because there is little to no relationship between the tech and consumer. That's the job of the service writer. And unfortunately, they are hard to come by. If you find a good one, stick with them even when they go to a different dealership.

First things first. I appreciate that you are not playing into the drama.:whoo: Really, I'm not being a smart ass. So many people go there.

(and just to clear this up real quick),

I have never worked at a repair shop nor do I work directly in the auto industry. I build software (or software that other people use to build software) for a living.

My background is modifying cars as a hobby for motorsports. My drug of choice was always speed, so I learned whatever was required to squeeze out more of that nectar. I'm very over all that now and much older with more responsibilities (unfortunately). My previous obsession with speed, brought me in contact with many people who were in the auto industry profesionally. I even consulted with some of them to tune vehicles... I eventually got to know a few people in the R&D groups (mainly powertrain) at the MFG. All this gave me an inside out view of how dealerships operate (or at least how they operated 10 years ago). I doubt much has changed. I also still know many people who are techs locally. Some of them are even sharp, but the general culture in the shop is piss poor at best.

I will have to disagree with you that the dealer and Toyota have the right to refuse service and not honor the warranty on a vehicle with aftermarket parts. They have that right, only after proving that the aftermarket part is at fault. The dealer is a proxy for Toyota as far as warranty is concerned and this is a cut and dry situation legally. Remember, we are talking about an alternator here, it does not get much simpler than that. What's next, an aftermarket air filter. That might really blow the techs mind.

The actions of the tech cannot be defended and I'm blown away that people can accept this. If his skills were lacking, he needed to fess up.

I never said anything about dealers not liking warranty work. Yes, they love it as long as they are making good money. When the job goes bad however, they no longer want to spend time on it. First step they always take is to call the tech line for more hours, when that does not pan out, they just cut corners and usually give the customer half fixed broken down junk.

 

[Donkey]

Ok it's time to call the priest, this thread is on life support and it is not looking good.

 

[Ducmonsta]

I will have to disagree with you that the dealer and Toyota have the right to refuse service and not honor the warranty on a vehicle with aftermarket parts. They have that right, only after proving that the aftermarket part is at fault. The dealer is a proxy for Toyota as far as warranty is concerned and this is a cut and dry situation legally. Remember, we are talking about an alternator here, it does not get much simpler than that. What's next, an aftermarket air filter. That might really blow the techs mind.

The actions of the tech cannot be defended and I'm blown away that people can accept this. If his skills were lacking, he needed to fess up.

I think you may be reading my statement incorrectly. The dealer has every right to refuse service. But if they choose to work on it, they have to honor the warranty or prove otherwise.

We're on the same page about the tech though. Lol.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Not entirely sure how the thread got so side tracked...

In any case, in my personal and professional opinion of the "dealership incident" is as follows:

-Customer was aware that warranty may be denied and was okay with this
-Technician basically refused to work on the vehicle
-Customer was still expected to cover cost of diagnosis, even though technician refused to work on the vehicle.

The last part is the issue I took with the technician & service writer, I have no problem if the technician wants to back out of the issue or even if he wants to half-ass it and just blame it on the aftermarket stuff and call it a day. Its when the technician and/or service writer expect to get paid for not doing anything that upset me. The issues was that the technician didn't do anything beyond pop the hood and see the aftermarket wiring. Had he at least said, "I checked for DTCs and some of them are related to Voltage supply issues and I am suspecting the alternator is at play here and I want to restore the system to stock to verify" I'm sure the OP would not have had an issue, where as the way it was presented was basically refusing to work on the vehicle but still wanting to take the money for a job they didn't actually do.
[MENTION=68685]Ducmonsta[/MENTION] is right, we (as technicians) are getting not paid to diagnose your vehicle completely. What we are getting paid for is a .8-1.0hrs of labor to perform diagnostic tesing. I have come across jobs where I have to go back and ask for additional hours because we're struggling with diagnostics and/or the issue is so big we can't just figure it out in such a short amount of time. But that is on the service writer to present the job as "we are charging you 1hr to START diagnostics, if we need additional time it will be up to you to decide how much further you want to go." This is designed to help us avoid cases where the customer gets a bill for 20hrs of diagnostics when they only expected 1-2hrs.

The dealership has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason, the same as most any other business. Now its not in their best interest to do so, but we've had to turn away some customers before. I had a lady who had something seriously wrong with her head, because the Prius she drove was a biological hazard on wheels! The seat frames were flaking rust from god knows what she pissed/spilled in the vehicle and the stench and filth was so severe we put on hazardous particulate filters, gloves and taped seat covers on our uniform to work in that vehicle just to program a key. Afterwards we ask the customer to not expect us to service that vehicle again.

The issue with warranty pay is that the dealership pays upfront for any warranty work, then Toyota reviews the warranty repair orders and authorizes reimbursement. Which means if we charge 3hours of diagnostics under warranty and Toyota comes in and says, "customer had an aftermarket alternator, issue is electrical, warranty is voided." The dealership is stuck with the bill, so many dealerships will nip a job that even hints it could be voided in the bud to avoid any possible conflict (hence why so warranty is such a pain in the ass for members likes us.)

Post Note-
[MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION]

What mods exactly have you installed on the vehicle and does the vehicle have any extras from when you bought it? i.e. dealer/port installed alarm, ect?

I don't remember if I asked you before or not. I'm trying to get an idea if the alternator may be worth focusing on, the issue is that IF the alternator is charging within the ideal voltage ranges it shouldn't be an issue. Most modules are running some form of actively converter to reduce the voltage to a stabilized 5v; otherwise when the alternator jumps from 13.4-14+ volts the 5v reference would always be in accurate. The issue though is that if grounds or powers INTO those modules is wonky that could skew some things.

More importantly we still need an idea of the DTCs you have in the vehicle to get a more accurate idea what section of the electrical system we need to address. If the CAN bus was affected it'd take down the entire network depending on the issue (short to power or ground would take down the network lines due to failsafes), where if it was a break or even weird signalling/excessive resistance it could cause issues to/from a particular module. At this point we're still flying blind without the DTCs and/or healthcheck report to get an idea of what is going on.

 

[wfo9]

[MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION]

I think we are on the same page here. If you go back and read my posts, they pretty much say the same thing with one exception.

So, one quick non-productive diversion. I still don't follow on a dealer has the right to refuse service for any reason. I do not believe that is true in the case of warranty work, since the dealer represents Toyota and Toyota is obligated by a contract to honor the warranty. They can only refuse it for a valid reason and need to provide some level of proof. They will quickly lose that battle in court in a big way and Toyota will not be too happy with what it will end up costing them.

You obviously did not mean this, but what If they refused service to a new vehicle owner (who happened to be a minority ethnicity) and said we don't provide warranty service to your ethnicity here... That would be ridiculous, but you get the idea. Refusing warranty work is much different than not taking on new business. If that same minority walked in without a warranty and they told him we are too busy to take on out of warranty work, then it would be 100% legal, since they are under no contract at that point. Warranty is an existing contract that they have already committed to and must honor. The dealers are named in that contract. In fact, the contact states that the consumer must take it to the dealer for warranty.

If the vehicle was a bio hazard... that would be a legitimate reason to refuse all service, but an aftermarket alternator is not such a reason and I think you and i both agree on that. The FTC is pretty darn serious about this. There are very few things that void the warranty without requiring written proof (salvage title...).


Back to helping with the issue at hand. I think we need to answer a couple of things to help diagnose this over the internet LOL (which is near impossible)

1. We need a TIS cable and software hooked up and need to see what it reports for history and current.
2. We need to know if basic parameters that the dash displays can be reported via standard ODBII correctly by a PID. Tach, speed... If that works, try the same with TIS since it may use a slightly different protocol. Just saying this can be done without TIS (just try the torqe app and one of the cheap blue tooth adapters or something similar)
3. We need to know how long the aftermarket parts were installed before the symptoms started.
4. We need to know exactly what was modified on the vehicle and who did it.
5. We need to know what symptoms if any are present when the vehicle is not running, but the key is on.

I'm still inclined to think it is the cluster itself, but that is too expensive to swap out without more troubleshooting.

If it was me and the vehicle was this lightly modified and I could still not figure it out in a day (and to avoid legal battles and dealing with lawyers...) I would put the alternator back to stock and disconnect any amps... Take it to the dealer and make them fix it.

if they refused I would open a case with Toyota and start making the dealer nervous. That will surely get things moving in the right direction.

 

[1engineer]

Let me make a simple post from 25 years of troubleshooting extremely complex systems.
You have an electrical problem. You have made electrical modifications. The stock circuit is working in 250, 000 4Runners with no issues.
One of the first things I do when troubleshooting is take the system back to what I know worked. That is the first thing I do to eliminate any unknown conditions. After I do that and I still have a problem I then befin a systemic analysis of a known working system. [MENTION=68685]Ducmonsta[/MENTION] is correct. I won't begin to judge the tech or dealership because I have to hear both sides of the story but I would start undoing your mods just to get back to a known circuit. If it fixes it so much the better. We do it on stuff we designed! Sometimes in order to solve a problem you have to eliminate variables. Only then can you figure out what is wrong.

Now, people like @ ducmonsta and [MENTION=66300]Intruder[/MENTION] and [MENTION=65614]Antman[/MENTION] are great people and help out a ton. Why would you think they were doing anything other than helping you?

Again I mod machines all the time. If I have a problem the first thing I do is un-mod it back to a known working model.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Warranty is really weird lately, in the older days dealers got away with warranty a lot of stuff. Now Toyota has cracked down on it hard, I'm surprised they don't have us taking chemical analysis of fluids and such like other brands do when components fail (though they do get on us about lot# and such sometimes.)

Its a bit tricky there because in your example you're right, the dealer is going to get nailed easily for refusing; but most customers will not persue the matter much further than that and move on to another dealer. Its one of those things where the dealer is screwed by the company (Toyota pays the dealer AFTER the work and they decide IF the warranty work was warrantable, despite what the dealer does) and the customer (because IF they take the risk to sink hours diagnosing a vehicle and it turns out to be not warrantable, they have to go after the customer; who most likely will fight them tooth an nail.) Either way unless its a clear-cut deal, most dealerships would rather pass the buck onto another dealership and take the hit in CSI than risk tying up a tech, rack, and income on a most likely non-warrantable job that they'd either lose money on or have to go through collections to get.