Do you follow the vehicle manufacturers recommended specs for air pressure?

The only way to know the exact air pressure for your vehicle is to spend the time and do the old chalk test. Each vehicle will be a little different because of what you carry (weight), brand/style of tire, your driving style and the conditions you drive in. The chalk wear line will show exactly how much of the tire is making contact with the ground. I have done this testing and I can tell that using 40 psi does not have any negative affect on the handling. What I did find out was if you use the factory pressure the handling is a little sloppy when pushing the vehicle to its limits. This indicates that under emergency/panic diving conditions you are better off with more pressure then the recommended pressure. I also found out that each tire may need different pressures to provide the most tire contact. Again 40 psi turned out to be the perfect balance and did not even affect the longevity of the tire. Do your own testing and see what comes up and let us know!

Koz
 
I also found out that each tire may need different pressures to provide the most tire contact.

That's IMPOSSIBLE.

As long as the weight hasn't changed...then the contact patch area will be EXACTLY the same with the same tire pressure.

It does get a little merky because of a tire tread. To calculate this EXACTLY...you must only account for the total area the tire is touching the ground. Tire tread will areas on the tire that won't be touching the ground so you can't just measure front to back and side to side and expect to get an exact reading. If you had slicks it would work because there would be no gaps.
 
That's IMPOSSIBLE.

As long as the weight hasn't changed...then the contact patch area will be EXACTLY the same with the same tire pressure.

It does get a little merky because of a tire tread. To calculate this EXACTLY...you must only account for the total area the tire is touching the ground. Tire tread will areas on the tire that won't be touching the ground so you can't just measure front to back and side to side and expect to get an exact reading. If you had slicks it would work because there would be no gaps.

It's not impossible. You're assuming that each tire is loaded exactly the same.
 
We're dealing with the difference between the theoretical models used to predict tire behavior and how tires actually behave in the real world. The models are pretty good approximations, but that's all they are. Some work better than others. The chalk test is hit and miss and probably even more so in an off road tire.

I rolled up my sleaves and performed an archeological dig in my files. Of course, it was dead simple to find this in Google after that. Probably should have started there (old school habit).

Fact or Fiction? Tire contact patch and air pressure.

I still find some of the entries hard to imagine. For instance when the center line rises with a reduction of pressure. I'm surprised the author didn't at least raise the possibility of a transcription error. Still, ignoring that possibility, it's pretty clear tires aren't balloons.
 
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That's IMPOSSIBLE.

As long as the weight hasn't changed...then the contact patch area will be EXACTLY the same with the same tire pressure.

Each wheel is caring a different amount of weight. It may be a little, but different (even the amount of gas will cause different pressures). You have to remember we are talking about the perfect pressure for full contact. There is no need to be that precise.

Koz
 
We're dealing with the difference between the theoretical models used to predict tire behavior and how tires act in the real world. The models are pretty good approximations, but that's all they are. Some work better than others. The chalk test is hit and miss and probably even more so in an off road tire.

Fact or Fiction? Tire contact patch and air pressure.

I still find some of the entries hard to imagine. For instance when the center line rises with a reduction of pressure. I'm surprised the author didn't at least raise the possibility of a transcription error. Still, ignoring that possibility, it's pretty clear tires aren't balloons.

You are absolutely correct about being theoretical but I have seen the center of a tire (off the vehicle) not even touch the ground when underinflated. I worked in a tire shop (part time) and seen tires that were worn on the outer edges and very little wear in the center. This is caused by underinflated tires. Just the opposite of the center wearing because of over inflation.

Koz
 
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Each wheel is caring a different amount of weight. It may be a little, but different (even the amount of gas will cause different pressures). You have to remember we are talking about the perfect pressure for full contact. There is no need to be that precise.

Koz

I agree that the same tires on the the vehicle may have different weight on each of the wheels...Wasn't addressing that.

What I meant by the weight being the same...is the weight at each corner of the vehicle is going to be the same. The formula I used to calculate a vehicles weight...I said to take measurements at each of the 4 wheels. Then add up the calculated weight.

There's going to be the human element (error prone) when calculating this in a real world situation. This is the problem with ALL experiments I ever did in physics class (or chemistry class). That's why we ran more then one experiment. Then take the average of those experiments.

If you use a laser to actually measure the total foot-print of the tire then what you measure should be extremely close to what you calculate.

But the outcome will still be the same...Just that you probably can't measure as closely as you can calculate the results.
 
You're trying to rewrite the laws of physics. This is simple physics...and simple math.

You come across as a very knowledgeable person so you must know already that the laws of physics and reality are two different things. Math is not an absolute answer to anything. I don't care how much number crunching anyone does, math and physics do not provide an absolute answer. They are abstract no matter how you cut it and with that said there are always variables that exist which are not within our realm of computation. Math and physics will provide a basic guideline and either one can be twisted just enough to glean an outcome that one desires. You basically said all this yourself when you acknowledged that you take multiple samples and average them however you and I both know it is beyond just human error alone.

You also stated that the tire with the smaller contact patch will have a higher psi. I then showed two tires that I own which refutes that statement. It is an actuality. It is a real occurrence and it did not take math or physics to show you this yet your precious math is allowing you to disagree with physical evidence that is directly in front of you.

Of the two tires in the pic, the left one has about 2500 lbs on it at the moment. Once I lighten that load, and at your request, I will gladly present to you the egregious differences in the contact patches on what are supposed to be two 205 tires where the one with a lower max psi indeed has a smaller contact patch.

As I stated earlier in the thread, I race motorcycles. I have a Honda CBR600. I have gone thru a few different tire mfg's as well as changed sizes of tires. Even with the exact same tires mounted every race weekend, I am constantly adjusting the suspension and air pressures on that bike, albeit within a general baseline, in an effort to achieve certain handling characteristics.

The most recent time I changed tire mfg's, I tried to use the (then) current suspension settings. I found the chassis to give completely different feedback. I had to reconfigure the entire bike from front to back regardless of the fact that I had the same size tires mounted as the previous ones I was on. I found myself running different baseline tire pressures on both ends of the machine. That alone told me that, while tire sizes can be the same based on what's stamped on the side, the contact patch and tire behavior is drastically different.

You can throw articles at me all you want. You can do all of the math you want but none of it means anything because none of it is an absolute answer since atmospheric changes are happening with every breath we take…changes that affect how a tire contacts the ground.

A 215 from Tire company A will have a different contact patch than the one from Tire company B, even if they are subjected to exacting scenarios.

This is the last time I am going in circles with this conversation. The way a tire company construct its tires, sidewall stiffness and carcass flex...even the compound....has everything to do with the contact patch as well as what happens to that patch when other forces are put on it.

As far as that last article you posted, because someone chose to call something a "bible" does not make it so and there are so many holes in that article I'm not even sure where to begin.

Just this right here is erroneous:

"Well because the narrower tyre has less capacity for cooling off, it needs to be made of a harder rubber "

It absolutely does not "need" to be made from a harder compound. Heat is very easily controlled thru tire pressure.

Speaking of bibles, this post right here is also a bible and on that note, I'm done.

Just know that neither of us are right but neither of us are wrong, it depends on nothing more than one’s perspective.
 
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You come across as a very knowledgeable person so you must know already that the laws of physics and reality are two different things.

Actually no they aren't two different things. Reality MUST follow the laws of nature/physics. Yes you'll find minute differences...but those differences are NOT flaws in the physics..but flaws in our perception or our inabilities. The laws of physics all came out experimentation. Through experimentation after experimentation the laws of physics were established. When ever doing this kind of experiment there's going to be errors. We don't have extremely accurate measuring devices to get exact measurements...but they will all follow the laws of physics...Sorry...that's a reality.

Math is not an absolute answer to anything. I don't care how much number crunching anyone does, math and physics do not provide an absolute answer.

Math can be abstract...but physics is NOT. I have a BS in Computer Science and a MS in Applied Mathematics. Math and physics is VERY accurate. Do you know how much math and physics it took to send a man to the moon???? It's mind boggling. You can't experiment on a Moon shot or people will get killed.

This is the last time I am going in circles with this conversation. The way a tire company construct its tires, sidewall stiffness and carcass flex...even the compound....has everything to do with the contact patch as well as what happens to that patch when other forces are put on it.

NO matter WHAT tire you use....You can calculate the weight being applied by figuring out the tires contact patch and then by multiplying it by the air-pressure. That will give you a very accurate measurement of how much weight is being applied to the wheel.

If you have a tire on your car that has a footprint of 35sq"...and a tire pressure of 32psi...you will get a weight being applied to the tire of 1,120 lbs....If you took extremely accurate measurements and the tire pressure gauge was very accurate..then you can bet the weight being applied would be extremely close to 1,120lbs.

Now replace that tire with a stiffer side-wall...and narrower tire....If you put air in the tire to the EXACT same pressure as you did in the old tire...then the contact patch will be EXACTLY the same. HOWEVER..that may NOT be the optimum contact patch for that particular tire (If it's the exact same size as the old tire then I'll bet it's extremely close though). You can then adjust the contact patch to optimum performance by adjusting the air pressure....The weight being applied is constant...So if you increase the tire pressure...it'll decrease the contact patch. If you recalculate the weight you'll find it to be 1,120lbs. If it's NOT then you didn't measure correctly the first or second time...or you calculated it wrong (or both).
 
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Lot's of good reading.

Bottom line: the vehicle is supported by the air in the tires. Pounds per square inch.

One caveat here is that the tread-design also plays into the size of the contact patch. The weight is supported on the area(s) of the tire that actually touch the road surface. Bigger groves (smaller lands) will dictate a different overall-area of tire that appears to be on the ground, and of course, visa versa.

Happy Holidays, and safe travels.
 
One caveat here is that the tread-design also plays into the size of the contact patch.

EXACTLY......I pointed that out earlier....

Contact patch is the TOTAL amount of tire that is touching the ground. If you have a tire that has an area of 5" x 6" touching the ground...that DOESN'T mean there's a contact patch of 30" (5x6). There will be areas within that space that are NOT touching the ground...This is where the tread is. That total area needs to be calculated and then removed from the 30". This can be VERY difficult to do.

If this tire had no tread then the contact patch would be 30".
 
I run a little higher then spec.

Spec for my truck say 32psi..I run about 35psi. Manufacturers tend to go on the soft side of tire pressure for ride comfort. Going 2-3psi over is fine....going 10psi over could lead to problems.

Pretty much this. I don't perfect it 32psi in each tire but it's around there. Same in my car.
 
:snacker:

Let me get this straight. Is my link going unread or are the data just being ignored?

Bergs, I'd think you'd be all over it.
 
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