Drum Brake Amateur Hour Help

[nc-grayson]

Greetings All,

In November, I replaced my bellcranks, rear shoes, and springs/cups because my rear brakes needed some love and my parking brake was useless. I used napa bell cranks, and everything seemed to go over smoothly during the install and everything seemed in order after it was all buttoned up. I followed this DIY, http://www.toyota-4runner.org/attac...-toyota-truck-park-brake-bellcrank-repair.pdf, as well as used the FSM, and some t4r.org posts.

Since then however, my passenger rear drum has slowly kept over adjusting and causing the shoes to get super hot after a short trip. I've pulled the wheel off and backed the star wheel off a few times, but it still happens. I sincerely believe that the self adjuster lever and the star wheel adjuster are both working well, together, in harmony as they should.

I believe my problem stems from the stop screws on the bell-crank and their respective clearances, in turn causing the shoes to over-adjust every time I pull the parking brake, which is every time I drive

I can work through the stop screw deal on the bell cranks, but most of what I'm needing help with is on pages 8-9 of the pdf I linked.

During the initial install in November and still to this day, I CANNOT for the life of me "hear" the shoes making contact with the drum when I'm spinning the shoes out via the star wheel adjuster, to get them adjusted. I "hear" noise spinning the drum even with the shoes in their narrowest adjustment. I've tried dozens of times to "listen" for the point at which the shoes make contact with the drum, but the sounds I hear are the same from the smallest shoe adjustment to the widest shoe adjustment, when I cant even get the drum back on.

In November, I tried so many times to "hear" the shoes making contact to know they were at the right adjustment, but never did. I got frustrated with it and just settled on the "pull up on the parking brake multiple times with the button depressed until you can no longer hear the clicking" to get the shoes adjusted (or so I thought).

The DIY pdf says that "the shoes are adjusted when you can feel a very slight drag...". Like I said earlier, I "hear" noise and "feel" a drag even with the shoes at their narrowest possible position......so how the hell am I supposed to know the difference?!?!?!

If you're still reading this, I'm sorry for being confusing. This is super frustrating because I did this whole brake project to fix my non-working parking brake, and now that I've thrown the parts at it, actually using the parking brake now causes different problems. At this point with my frustration over a seemingly simple task, I'm confident I've over-thought this and now backed myself into a mental block, but
-how the heck do I know when the shoes are adjusted if the drum makes noise just spinning it even when the shoes are at their narrowest?
-what kind of sound should I hear when the shoes are just making contact with the drums?
-why is something so simple completely getting the best of me!!!!!!


Thank you,

Grayson.

 

[Buckaroo]

Grayson - Some thoughts on what I think you said in your post -

1. When you are rotating the star-wheel with the drum on, you will not hear the pads contact the drum. You only hear the pads when you spin the hub/drum after doing the adjustment. You should hear and feel a slight drag.

2. The parking brake should be off (down) when adjusting the clearance on the rear pads. Make sure that you don't have too much tension on the parking brake cable in the rest position. You should need 7-9 clicks to set the brake when the travel and rear shoes are adjusted properly. From the bottom of page 8 on your pdf....

"If after this adjustment and the cable is reconnected the stop screws do not return to the backing plate, the cables are either seized or adjuster too tight. Check the cables for free movement through the sheaths. Replace any that are sticking. If none are sticking proceed."

3. Those star wheel adjusters are different side to side...they rotate opposite one another. Make sure you didn't swap them during your install.

Buckaroo.

 

[nc-grayson]

Thanks Buckaroo.

1. I'm aware that rotating the star wheel with the drum off will net me nothing. My trouble is actually getting to hear or feel the slight drag once the shoes are "wide" enough to make contact with the drum when it is on.

2. The parking brake has been off during this process, and when I did the job originally in November, I had 7 clicks on the cable and all was well. Still get 7-8 clicks, but the right over adjusts still.

3. Star wheel adjusters are on correctly, I only took one side apart at a time during the year down for visuals.

Any tips for getting the shoes adjusted properly? I think that's the big issue I'm facing. Once I get the shoes adjusted properly, the rest will fall into place.

 

[WallyWest]

Subscribed.

I have the opposite problem. Put new shoes and hardware on mine, adjusted them properly, use parking brake frequently. Also replaced the bell cranks as mine were seized tight. But the auto adjuster doesn't appear to be working as the parking brake has gotten fairly loose to the point where it doesn't do much of anything. I can barely feel the brakes engage at all when pulling the lever all the way up.

Don't mean to hijack, I think we have basically the same problem just in reverse.

 

[Buckaroo]

Sorry for beating this to death but my point was that you can have the drum on, and while adjusting the brakes, not hear or feel the shoes hitting the drum as you adjust them out. It is only when you spin the drum that you hear or feel the contact. That said, the fact that you have drag with the shoes at the narrowest setting may be ok....they are new shoes. I have had to work to get the drums on over the shoes.....you say they are super hot....how hot? I just checked some rear brakes on an '04 Accord with a non-contact thermometer. The rear right caliper piston was stuck and the rotor hub read 350F and smelled hot. I could feel it with the palm of my hand from 6 inches away. The other side was working correctly and was at 150F - still hot. Are you sure this isn't normal? When they are hot and you jack the car up, can you still rotate the wheels by hand? Any side-to-side variablity?


Buckaroo

 

[Buckaroo]

Wally - That parking brake thing works but your star-wheel adjusters need to be well lubricated and turning easily (clean the inside threads well and then use a little anti-seize). Try adjusting the rear brakes from the back of the hub per the PDF in Grayson's original post - page 9. Adjust them out until you can hear them when you spin....keep adjusting out until it gets a little hard to turn them....then back them off. My star-wheel auto adjusting mechanism is well lubricated but I still have to manually adjust them periodically.

Buckaroo

 

[Buckaroo]

Grayson - Just re-read your post and saw this issue is only the right side. Could you have a stuck piston or an out of round drum on that side?

Buckaroo

 

[nc-grayson]

Sorry for beating this to death but my point was that you can have the drum on, and while adjusting the brakes, not hear or feel the shoes hitting the drum as you adjust them out. It is only when you spin the drum that you hear or feel the contact. That said, the fact that you have drag with the shoes at the narrowest setting may be ok....they are new shoes. I have had to work to get the drums on over the shoes.....you say they are super hot....how hot? I just checked some rear brakes on an '04 Accord with a non-contact thermometer. The rear right caliper piston was stuck and the rotor hub read 350F and smelled hot. I could feel it with the palm of my hand from 6 inches away. The other side was working correctly and was at 150F - still hot. Are you sure this isn't normal? When they are hot and you jack the car up, can you still rotate the wheels by hand? Any side-to-side variablity?


Buckaroo

thanks for the advice again Buckaroo. The rear passenger doesn't get SUPER hot, but hot enough to not keep my hand on the wheel for about 3 seconds before it gets too warm for comfort. I'll keep monkeying with it and see where it gets me.

I understand that I shouldn't hear or feel anything from the shoes until I start spinning the drum. My confusion is that I hear and feel "something" as soon as the drum is on and the shoes are at their narrowest point. I can slide the drum over the shoes easily at it's narrowest point, but as soon as I spin the drum I hear and feel something. You might be onto something about the fact that they're brand new shoes, that they might already be contacting the drum braking surface at their narrowest point. Maybe I'm feeling and hearing the right thing and just don't know it. I just assumed I would have to "open" the shoes a bit before they made contact with the drum to make said noise.

I'll keep at it and see where I end up later this afternoon or tomorrow.

Thanks again!

 

[nc-grayson]

Grayson - Just re-read your post and saw this issue is only the right side. Could you have a stuck piston or an out of round drum on that side?

Buckaroo

It could be a bad wheel cylinder in there, or an out of round drum I suppose. I didn't replace the cylinders when I was in there the first time as they weren't leaking.

I'm tempted to button it all up and just suck it up and take it to toyota to have them adjust the rear shoes and parking brake. Maybe they'll see something in there that's wrong that I just can't figure out.

 

[Buckaroo]

Grayson -

I would say that what you are describing sounds normal to me. The 7-8 clicks to set the parking brake is what you would expect with a properly adjusted parking brake and shoes. The noise you notice without adjusting the new shoes in is what I have experienced. Finally, the fact that you can touch that wheel for 3 seconds right after driving sounds about right. Those shoes will wear down very quickly. After driving, I would jack up the car and see if the wheels turned ok by hand - a little noise and scraping ok.

Buckaroo

 

[The Count]

Initial drum brake adjustment is set by FEEL, not sound. There is nothing to listen for, as you have figured out by now. To set the adjustment for a drum brake with the wheel on, vehicle in neutral and rear tires off the ground… I would shoot for about 1-1.5 tire rotations when trying to spin the tire by hand. That should set it up so that there is enough drag for the brakes to work properly and not drag too much.

The ONLY time I have ever seen rear brakes go out of adjustment with normal use, is when the adjustment hardware was installed incorrectly. I have seen them loosen and over tighten during while driving and both were a result of the owner trying to do their own rear brake job.

 

[WallyWest]

The ONLY time I have ever seen rear brakes go out of adjustment with normal use, is when the adjustment hardware was installed incorrectly. I have seen them loosen and over tighten during while driving and both were a result of the owner trying to do their own rear brake job.

Can you expand on that? Like, what are the common mistakes you see made? I could see how they would loosen if you swapped the hardware from one side to the other, but how would they over tighten from normal operation?

I did my own but it wasn't my first time working on drum brakes. I know I didn't swap hardware from one side to the other, I worked on one at a time. Took pictures along the way so I know I reinstalled it correctly, and the adjuster did work at first. I intentionally left them adjusted a little loose and then used the parking brake to get them snug.

 

[nc-grayson]

Initial drum brake adjustment is set by FEEL, not sound. There is nothing to listen for, as you have figured out by now. To set the adjustment for a drum brake with the wheel on, vehicle in neutral and rear tires off the ground… I would shoot for about 1-1.5 tire rotations when trying to spin the tire by hand. That should set it up so that there is enough drag for the brakes to work properly and not drag too much.

The ONLY time I have ever seen rear brakes go out of adjustment with normal use, is when the adjustment hardware was installed incorrectly. I have seen them loosen and over tighten during while driving and both were a result of the owner trying to do their own rear brake job.

Good info, but I believe if the stop screws on the bellcranks aren't within spec, the adjuster can over tighten itself during normal braking and use of e-brake.

I've been busy and haven't had a chance to monkey with it since I posted the original post. I'm planning on getting the bellcrank screws back into spec, loosening the shoes to their narrowest setting, and trying the, "pull up on the parking brake method to adjust the shoes", per the FSM.

Question though. When you say, "I would shoot for 1-1.5 tire rotations when trying to spin the tire by hand...", should it spin freely like a bike tire if the shoes were narrow and not contacting the drum? I'm doing this all with the wheels off, and when the shoes are at their narrowest i know for a fact that I cannot spin the wheel, let it go, and have it keep spinning freely for a full 1-1.5 rotations. Are you saying that when the shoes are adjusted correctly, I should be able to spin it and it should slow to a stop around the 1-1.5 rotation mark?

How "freely" should the drums spin with no contact from the shoes?

 

[nevada]

Good info, but I believe if the stop screws on the bellcranks aren't within spec, the adjuster can over tighten itself during normal braking and use of e-brake.

I've been busy and haven't had a chance to monkey with it since I posted the original post. I'm planning on getting the bellcrank screws back into spec, loosening the shoes to their narrowest setting, and trying the, "pull up on the parking brake method to adjust the shoes", per the FSM.

Question though. When you say, "I would shoot for 1-1.5 tire rotations when trying to spin the tire by hand...", should it spin freely like a bike tire if the shoes were narrow and not contacting the drum? I'm doing this all with the wheels off, and when the shoes are at their narrowest i know for a fact that I cannot spin the wheel, let it go, and have it keep spinning freely for a full 1-1.5 rotations. Are you saying that when the shoes are adjusted correctly, I should be able to spin it and it should slow to a stop around the 1-1.5 rotation mark?

How "freely" should the drums spin with no contact from the shoes?

im not sure its possible for the self adjusters to over tighten the shoes. as they rely on the shoes moving to ratchet the clicker. they can ONLY move out to the point of contact with the drum, no further.


as for how to adjust them, the very best way is to do it from the back side, with the tire completely installed, and torqued to spec. the problem with doing it without the tire on, is its very difficult to keep the drum fully in and square. this make the adjustment process much more difficult, and harder to get correct.


you will want/need a small pic tool, a screw driver may work also. you should practice this, BEFORE you put the drum on. you need to be able to disengage the clicker from the star wheel, to enable you to back it off as needed.

with the tire in place, trans in neutral. use the star wheel and adjust it until you can NOT turn the tire, OR the adjuster. then using the pic tool, slowly back off the adjustment until you can turn the tire. as you are adjusting it, grab the tire occasionally and try to turn it. you will be able to feel the change. back it off far enough so that is has just a very slight bit of drag.


but before doing all of that, I think you may have another issue entirely. when you say its adjusting itself too tight, and getting hot. are you able to spin the tire at this time? you do you have to release some tension on the adjuster via the method I described above, prior to being able to turn the tire? or is it just the fact that its getting too hot?

 

[The Count]

as for how to adjust them, the very best way is to do it from the back side, with the tire completely installed, and torqued to spec. the problem with doing it without the tire on, is its very difficult to keep the drum fully in and square. this make the adjustment process much more difficult, and harder to get correct.


you will want/need a small pic tool, a screw driver may work also. you should practice this, BEFORE you put the drum on. you need to be able to disengage the clicker from the star wheel, to enable you to back it off as needed.

with the tire in place, trans in neutral. use the star wheel and adjust it until you can NOT turn the tire, OR the adjuster. then using the pic tool, slowly back off the adjustment until you can turn the tire. as you are adjusting it, grab the tire occasionally and try to turn it. you will be able to feel the change. back it off far enough so that is has just a very slight bit of drag.

This is the proper way to adjust them. With the exception of going until you cant turn the tire anymore, IMO. Loosening the adjuster requires pushing the adjuster stop, so that the adjuster can be turned backwards. That requires a cramming in another pick/small screwdriver in through the adjuster hole, and is a pain usually. I just start off loose and tighten until I'm happy with it.

And IIRC the cause of the problems with the ones I have seen were hardware swapped/mixed between sides and the adjuster installed facing the wrong direction (adjuster stop didn't touch it at all).

I actually had a 93' Dodge 1ton that loosened up while driving. Every couple oil changes or so, I'd have to adjust them tight again. I never bothered to tear into to fix it, the PO or a mechanic somewhere along the line obviously installed something wrong.

 

[nevada]

This is the proper way to adjust them. With the exception of going until you cant turn the tire anymore, IMO. Loosening the adjuster requires pushing the adjuster stop, so that the adjuster can be turned backwards. That requires a cramming in another pick/small screwdriver in through the adjuster hole, and is a pain usually. I just start off loose and tighten until I'm happy with it.

And IIRC the cause of the problems with the ones I have seen were hardware swapped/mixed between sides and the adjuster installed facing the wrong direction (adjuster stop didn't touch it at all).

I actually had a 93' Dodge 1ton that loosened up while driving. Every couple oil changes or so, I'd have to adjust them tight again. I never bothered to tear into to fix it, the PO or a mechanic somewhere along the line obviously installed something wrong.

the reason for going until you cant turn the tire, is to make certain the shoes are completely centered.

you could also adjust them up close, then pump the pedal a few times. I just find its easier to not have to go back and forth from under the rig several times to get it done.

 

[nc-grayson]

Well, I think figured out what the problem has been with the passenger rear over-adjusting itself when I use the e-brake. I haven't taken a look at the driver's side since I noticed this problem because it's only seemed to be on the passenger side. Until now.

Driver's side Bell-Crank stop screw and lock nut is COMPLETELY missing, like non-existent. This, in turn, is causing the DS bell-crank to completely rest on the backing plate. Which then in turn is causing the PS bell-crank to be WAYY out of spec, like a half-inch or so. Which ultimately is causing the PS shoes to slowly get over-adjusted, causing my problems. My use of the e-brake essentially is causing the shoes to over-extend out to their furthest point possible. All of that logic made sense in my head, but feel free to correct me if it's flawed.

At any rate, I can't really do anything now until I get my hands on another stop screw/lock nut for the bell-crank. ANY SUGGESTIONS???? Bell-Cranks were bought from NAPA, lifetime warranty part I believe. I wonder if they'll just replace the stop screw for me, or if I'm going to have to tear the BC's apart to exchange them as a unit. I tossed my old BC's because they were seized frozen. Kicking myself now.....totally could have salvaged a stop screw!

On top of it all, I've been organizing my computer files for a new computer transfer, and somehow I've managed to only save an old copy of my 4Runner maintenance log, which holds all of my purchase info for said Bell Cranks. What a day. completely pisses me off. FML.