Engine Trouble caused by driving without oil

[TFRnoob]

I cleaned and re-tightened the ground bolt near the oil pan on the driver's side. I took a look at the wire that goes to the starter and re-fastened that one too. It is still the same story. I am wondering if the "pump priming" sound I was hearing is the starter trying really hard to turn the flex plate or maybe its just freely spinning and not engaging the flex plate at all.

I have a video I can post a link to that only really serves as audio. I placed my camera about 2-3 feet from the starter as I turned the key to the start position.

Check out the video of the starter making noise:

https://youtu.be/8YGNmvyyTpI

If I think this means what I think it means...its not good. The sound leaves me to believe one of two things.

1) the starter is not engaging the flex plate enough and just spins. (not sure if this is even a possibility)

2) the starter is not strong enough to turn the engine over.

These scenarios give me some questions:

1) how freely should the crank turn? I am able to turn it over using a 10" socket wrench, some parts of the rotations are more difficult than others.

2) I obviously bolted the transmission bell housing to the engine block. This should mean that the flex plate is aligned properly, right? If so, how would it be possible for the starter not to engage the flex plate? Can I put the starter in the wrong orientation?

3) What next??????

 

[Diezel]

Your starter is NOT hitting the "ring gear".

I hate to even mention this. Did you install the correct flex plate, and in the proper direction?

 

[TFRnoob]

Your starter is NOT hitting the "ring gear".

I hate to even mention this. Did you install the correct flex plate, and in the proper direction?

I definitely installed the correct flex plate. I used the one that came out of the 1997 engine. I cleaned it up then put it back on to the 1998 engine from the junkyard.

As far as the proper direction... I think so but I really can't be sure. :shrug:

I put a spacer between the crank and flex plate and the other spacer between the flex plate and bolts.

If I open the flex plate cover and snapped a picture would you be able to tell if I installed the flex plate in the correct direction?

 

[TheDurk]

Thanks Durk! For whatever reason I have been very focused on the globs of dielectric grease I put on every single engine harness connection pretty much. I think there were only a few that I may have skipped.

I will buy a brush tomorrow along with a fuse tester and I will check the relays. If I bring the relays to a auto supply store would they test it? I sort of understand how they work but I am not sure I would be confident in testing it myself.

Again, thanks for the help.

I am less interested in the relay itself than what the voltages AT the relay tell me about what is going on with the rest of the truck. If the relay is bad I will also know that. Various circuits come together at the relay so if one (or more) of those wires that should be alive is dead, then we know in what direction to go next. Saves a lot of time over checking everything separately which is what you will do if you follow all the other posters' random guesses. Take your choice. I can give you a long list of random guesses but I prefer to troubleshoot because time is money. There are probably twenty things that could be checked if you just go one-by-one.

So what I need you to do is get a cheap 12V test light and hook the clamp to the negative (ground) battery post. Pull up on the starter relay in the engine fuse box just enough that you can get the probe to touch the contact blade without disengaging the relay from the socket. Have a helper turn the key to start. Do this for pins 1 and 3. Then do Pin 5 but no need to turn key, should be full-time. [If you prefer, all except Pin 3 can be checked with the relay completely removed, just stick the probe into the relay socket so you touch the contacts]. Then move the clamp to the POSITIVE post and touch the contact at Pin 2 (no need to turn key or install the relay here either, should be full-time.) I need to know at which pin or pins the light did not come on and I will have a pretty good idea of what area the problem is in. Can you handle that?

Don't sweat the grease. I put it on every connector I undo for whatever reason. Just not battery posts.

Page 22 at this link will show you the pin-outs on the starter relay (top right) in case they are hard to read.

http://tacoma.site40.net/4Runner_96-02_Repair&Wiring/techinfo.toyota.com/ileaf/ewdtmc2/ewdtmpdf/ewdsourc/2002/024runne/relayloc/relayloc.pdf

That test light is really the best way to check fuses. There is a little hole on each side of the fuse that you can stick the probe through to touch the fuse element. The light should come on on both sides. If neither side lights up, you have to turn on the key to power the fuse or there is some other problem. If only ONE side lights up, fuse is definitely bad. Swap it, and then CHECK it. More than one idiot has thrown a bad fuse back in the box or sometimes they are dead new.

Sorry to treat you like a total noob, but it looks like that is what is needed here. Gotta say I admire your courage for taking this on and the progress you have made. Let's get 'er done.

EDIT: Well, this was a waste of time. Starter circuit is fine. As Diexel says, starter is not engaging the ring gear. I'll step back because I only know 5-speeds. Good luck.

I'll save this post for the next guy that has a nostart, nocrank.

 

[TFRnoob]

After taking a look at the direction of the flex plate I think its in the correct orientation. Not because I know what direction the flex plate should be but just by comparing the pictures from when I pulled her out to this picture I just took now.

Tell me what you all think.

Diezel, you scared the heck out of me! I try not to think of the possibility that I am about half way done with this job. Instead, I like to think that I am like those marathon runners who get the wobbly legs right before the finish line, moving slowly but almost there!

 

[jeremyc74]

After taking a look at the direction of the flex plate I think its in the correct orientation. Not because I know what direction the flex plate should be but just by comparing the pictures from when I pulled her out to this picture I just took now.

Tell me what you all think.

Diezel, you scared the heck out of me! I try not to think of the possibility that I am about half way done with this job. Instead, I like to think that I am like those marathon runners who get the wobbly legs right before the finish line, moving slowly but almost there!

]

You got it on right. Sounds like something is preventing your starter from engaging though.

 

[TFRnoob]

You got it on right. Sounds like something is preventing your starter from engaging though.

It sounds like there is power to the starter and it spins freely. I know starters are supposed to throw out that gear to engage the flyewheel or flew plate. Is it likely that the starter is just spinning without extending the gear?

Is it possible I have the starter installed wrong? It seems easy enough just two bolts but I am always being surprised.

How can I test what is wrong? I am confident now that the starter is getting power.

 

[TheDurk]

Well, here is how it is supposed to go together. FWIW, I checked, and all the parts, ring gear, TC, and spacers, are the same in in '97 and '98 slushboxes. The spacers are also the same front-to-back.

Look closely at the starter installation. Maybe it did not go in all the way and then you bolted it up bearing on the housing instead of inside the hole.

I would suggest you climb back under there and check the measurement shown at this link:

http://tacoma.site40.net/4Runner_96...f/02rmsour/2002/024runne/at/atua340f/inst.pdf

 

[TFRnoob]

Well, here is how it is supposed to go together. FWIW, I checked, and all the parts, ring gear, TC, and spacers, are the same in in '97 and '98 slushboxes. The spacers are also the same front-to-back.

Look closely at the starter installation. Maybe it did not go in all the way and then you bolted it up bearing on the housing instead of inside the hole.

I would suggest you climb back under there and check the measurement shown

I am going to use what I have which is a ruler and a piece of metal that I marked at about 18mm. I will then measure the distance from the ruler to the torque converter surface (where the bolt goes)

I will also reinstall the starter if the measurement is within spec. >17.95mm

 

[TFRnoob]

Okay, using my semi-crude method to measure the distance from the edge of the bell housing to the torque converter I ran into a problem... The torque converter is behind the flex plate so I measured to the flex plate and I am fairly confident that the torque converter is within spec because I measured around 17-18mm from the edge of the bell housing to the flat spot of the flex plate that the TC bolts into.

I am confident the flex plate thickness is >1mm and more likely >2mm so even with any reasonable error in measurement I am confident that the torque converter is seated >17.95mm from the edge of the bell housing bolt plane.

I am going to check out my starter...

Oddly, I had some thought about how to align the starter when I installed it. I think that the starter misalignment really could be the problem. Again, what do I know but if anyone has any other ideas please share.

 

[TFRnoob]

Maybe that sound is not the starter because the "starter spinning sound" only happens about 2-4 seconds after the key is turned to the "ON" position. No sounds or anything happens when the key is turned to the "START" position.

I also do not suspect the starter relay as I can hear it click when the key is turned to the on position and I can feel the movement of the magnet. I know this is not a substitute for actually testing it but I will focus elsewhere for now.

Any thought? Am I off base when I think that it isn't the starter making that noise? I am sure that the starter would only spin if the key is in the "START" position.

Now I am back to square one. Either the starter isn't getting juice, or the starter is bad, or there is a mechanical failure preventing the starter from moving the crankshaft.

Again, I can turn the crank by hand with what I guess to be somewhere between 20-60 ft lbs of torque depending on where I am in the stroke. I could be off with my estimates but you get the idea.

 

[cashmoney]

If you can spin the motor by hand you are fine. Simple way to test the start is to run jumper cables from the battery direct to the starter. That'll tell you real quick if the starter is spinning or not.

 

[TheDurk]

Maybe that sound is not the starter because the "starter spinning sound" only happens about 2-4 seconds after the key is turned to the "ON" position. No sounds or anything happens when the key is turned to the "START" position.

I also do not suspect the starter relay as I can hear it click when the key is turned to the on position and I can feel the movement of the magnet. I know this is not a substitute for actually testing it but I will focus elsewhere for now.

Any thought? Am I off base when I think that it isn't the starter making that noise? I am sure that the starter would only spin if the key is in the "START" position.

Now I am back to square one. Either the starter isn't getting juice, or the starter is bad, or there is a mechanical failure preventing the starter from moving the crankshaft.

Again, I can turn the crank by hand with what I guess to be somewhere between 20-60 ft lbs of torque depending on where I am in the stroke. I could be off with my estimates but you get the idea.

Oh, OK. I thought that noise was a little soft to be a not engaged starter but it is hard to tell off a recording. So you really need to do the test AT the starter relay location I described above. You are not testing the relay, you are seeing if the truck is sending juice TO the starter and if not, why not.

That noise then is probably unrelated, ABS pump or something like that, if it happens three or four seconds after key is in Ignition On position. Starter and fuel pump only happen in Start positon. Some other relay is clicking when you turn the key to ON (EFI, Power, there are a couple that come on then.) You should hear at least the starter relay, the fuel pump (and its relay) when you turn the key to Start even if you don't hear the starter. The fuel pump will only run if the starter is receiving voltage. Conversely, if your hear the pump, voltage is going to the starter. If no noise at all, those tests are even more important. So please do them.

 

[TFRnoob]

If you can spin the motor by hand you are fine. Simple way to test the start is to run jumper cables from the battery direct to the starter. That'll tell you real quick if the starter is spinning or not.

Okay, I will try this. I assume you leave the battery plugged in and only run the red wire (+) to the starter. Do I put the black (-) wire anywhere?

Also, do I need to take the wire that is already plugged into the starter off before testing?

Does the key need to be in the ignition? In any specific position? Thanks and sorry for the ignorance. :/

 

[TFRnoob]

Oh, OK. I thought that noise was a little soft to be a not engaged starter but it is hard to tell off a recording. So you really need to do the test AT the starter relay location I described above. You are not testing the relay, you are seeing if the truck is sending juice TO the starter and if not, why not.

That noise then is probably unrelated, ABS pump or something like that, if it happens three or four seconds after key is in Ignition On position. Starter and fuel pump only happen in Start positon. Some other relay is clicking when you turn the key to ON (EFI, Power, there are a couple that come on then.) You should hear at least the starter relay, the fuel pump (and its relay) when you turn the key to Start even if you don't hear the starter. The fuel pump will only run if the starter is receiving voltage. Conversely, if your hear the pump, voltage is going to the starter. If no noise at all, those tests are even more important. So please do them.

I will definitely do these tests. So to recap, test the starter AND fuel pump relays?

 

[cashmoney]

Key in the on position, positive cable to the positive side of the solenoid on the starter. Assuming your ground works you won't need to hook up the negative cable.

 

[TFRnoob]

When I put the starter in the truck all I connected was two bolts that went through the bell housing, a bolt the pressed the starter wire to the starter, and plugged in a black connector.

Did I miss something maybe? When I looked up how to jump a starter on YouTube I saw videos where starters had more than one terminal. Are Toyotas different?

 

[rtarv32101]

Retread the post from the Durk, # 326. You are not testing the relay, using a test light, you are testing for power @ various legs of the relays. Listen to what he is saying, he is helping you troubleshoot where the problem might be

 

[TFRnoob]

Retread the post from the Durk, # 326. You are not testing the relay, using a test light, you are testing for power @ various legs of the relays. Listen to what he is saying, he is helping you troubleshoot where the problem might be

Yeah he is awesome, I will be doing the recommended tests as soon as I get the equipment.

I assume a test light is either on if the connection is good or off if it is bad, right?

 

[TFRnoob]

I jumped the starter by putting the red cable to bolt securing the starter wire, I clipped the black to the ground bolt near the oil pan. The other red and black went directly onto their respective battery terminals. I turned the key to the ON and Start positions and nothing...

Can I assume bad starter? Did I do this correctly?