failing in the winter
- Thread starter corrado
- Start date
My stock Michelin Cross Terrains did excellent in ice last weekend in Big Bear (i went looking for all the unmaintained roads :withstupid
i was very surprised. i love these tires!however i always went very SLOW when maneuvering on ice to prevent wheels spin because my traction control would kick in too. i think the key is to let the tires try to grab on their own, like if you are walking on ice, you'd walk flat footed and very slow assuring you have grip, you wouldn't dead sprint right away or else youd end up on your arse. same thing with tires, if you "throttle out of it" it most likely will not work on ice. in theory.
PS if you have a 4runner and live off moonridge in big bear with a SW bumper, congrats, your rig is beautiful!i drove by twice drooling and dreaming!
JB.
New member
Tires doesn't make good sense to me as an explanation. While I don't put much stock in the reliability of the snowflake logo, the Silent Armors should have been at least competent and noticeably better than the OE tire. As a group, most ATs are pretty similar.
Forgetting the parking spot for the moment, I'm curious about the operating state of the 4Runner during the downhill resort exit. A lower gear for engine braking helps. The least effective combination in that scenario would be diff locked with no engine braking. There'd be nothing but brakes slowing the vehicle while the locked diff would inhibit normal ABS function and reduce steering traction. I can see that combination affecting performance to the point of making ATs feel like stock tires.
And I agree, ABS should be defeatable or turned off in certain modes.
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TRDCal
New member
There are 3 factors here. The truck, the tires and the driver. We can rule out the truck because most people think they're 4runners are great in the winter and we live in a democracy so majority rules. That leaves either the tires or the driver at fault, or maybe a combination of the two. I decided to give the OP the benefit of the doubt and blame his tires, but who knows.
Plus the snowflake is their for a reason and it should be trusted. It takes more time and resources to certify a tire to be "snowflake" worthy...so I'm sure tire companys are just going to just start slapping the snowflakes on every tire.
Finally, ABS (anti-lock brake system) is different then VSC (vehicle stability control). When you lock the center diff, VSC is disabled however ABS still functions normally.
corrado
New member
haha well i don't know about the 3 factor rule. the surface was definitely a factor as well. You can rule out the truck if you like, but i think that's pretty short sighted. this isn't my first SUV and all my driving life's worth of experience has involved about 10k miles a year of just ski trips. I've owned; 93 cherokee sport, 94 explorer, 93 rodeo, 94 suburban (all 4x4) in addition to the audi and have logged countless hours in friends and family's SUV's too. I got very used to and comfortable driving 4x4 SUV's in snow/ice and none of them had dedicated winter tires. Aside from ABS, none had any other electronic intervention. I've driven in and on way worse conditions and have never been stuck like that. What i normally would have done would be to delicately negotiate the throttle so as to try not to spin the wheels too much while also keeping momentum to rock the truck fwd/back. w/ the diff unlocked, at the first sign of spin, power was cut and the truck never budged. w/ it locked, i could feel atrac transferring power and breaking left to right as wheels spun but since both would spin a little it just kept transferring and didn't move more than a few inches. If atrac shuts off at 2500 rpm, it doesnt really help because 1) i certainly wasn't going to do a 2500rpm burnout in a parallel parking spot waiting for traction and 2) leaning on the throttle hard usually doesn't get you out nearly as well as negotiating it w/ some wheelspin. not sure what else i could have done there.
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JB.
New member
I don't wish to blame anyone, I'm just thinking this through because I'm not satisfied with the tire explanation.
We disagree on the utility of the snowflake, but how do you reconcile blaming the tires while asserting that the logo should be trusted?
Of course. Never said otherwise.
There is good reason to question whether ABS works normally with the center diff locked. Here's a <a href="http://4x4abc.com/4WD101/ABS_parttime.html" target="_blank">link</a> to just one discussion of the subject.
JB.
New member
Corrado,
As far as the parking spot goes, in my experience sometimes the elements can line up just right and make what looks like a simple situation into something completely different. It may have been only a couple inches of slushy ice, but chunks of wet ice could have been positioned against the tires in such a way as to make getting out the equivalent of trying to get going on a 10 degree, wet ice hill.
I'd reserve judgment before writing off either the tires or the 4Runner. Maybe you can report back at the end of winter with more of your impressions.
As far as the parking spot goes, in my experience sometimes the elements can line up just right and make what looks like a simple situation into something completely different. It may have been only a couple inches of slushy ice, but chunks of wet ice could have been positioned against the tires in such a way as to make getting out the equivalent of trying to get going on a 10 degree, wet ice hill.
I'd reserve judgment before writing off either the tires or the 4Runner. Maybe you can report back at the end of winter with more of your impressions.
TRDCal
New member
Haha your definately right, I used 3 factors to push my point about the tires but the surface was a huge factor. Like JB said, it may have just been a once off thing where the stars aligned and nothing could have prevented you from getting stuck. And I agree with him as far as waiting till the end of the season to make your full judgement. But I also feel like you can't blame the 4runner. VSC is the only electronic nanny that gets in the way and you could have locked the center diff and then been fine. Traction control on the T4R is a good thing. Without it your truck's front/rear diffs are open which is asking to get stuck.
First off I have to apologize. I was uniformed when I posted my first post. I didn't realize companys put the snowflake logo on all season tires. I actually got quite the wake up call during my google search. I just always assumed from my experience with "snowflake" tires becuase they've always been good to me, but thats because they were dedicated snow tires with the snowflake and not all season tires with the snowflake. So I retract my statement about trusting the snowflake. BUT...I still think the OP would have been better off in his situation with a set of dedicated snow tires.
About the ABS thing, I thought you were saying that the CDL disables ABS but after reading the link you posted I now get where your coming from. I do disagree with it tho. I understand the physics behind why it shouldn't work in 4X4 but I know from experience that my ABS functions the same wheither or not the diff is locked.
Hahaha...I get what you mean but damn that sounds like a bad idea
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My T4R loves the snow ...
Limited 2008
36,775
5000 On New Tires
Bought new Michelin AT 2's in Aug 2011. Was a little concerned that I might have to get snows for the winter 2011-2012. Well, these tires are performing beautifully in deep snow, hard packed snow, ice, sloppy slush combo. Got caught in a white out about 11 miles west of Old Forge NY a few weeks ago. 4-5 inches on top of ice, just about zero visibility blowing heavy 2 inch plus per hour snow. This was the first test for these tires and they loved it.
This past weekend hard packed snow, ice on the side streets Adirondacks absolutely no problem. Darn truck just loves to romp in the snow. I even pulled into some deep plowed snow banks several feet high (just about climbed them) ... no problems. Wife kept on asking "what are you doing" ? for which I replied ... "testing my dear", "testing".
* I did add (3) 40 lb bags of wood pellets in the back for a little grounding. Definitely needed that little extra weight. *
Warning - Black Ice not so good, but what tires are? The cop next to me with snows was all over the road. At least I could more forward and stay in a straight line. Others could not.
Love This Truck !! Love the Michelin AT 2's
Limited 2008
36,775
5000 On New Tires
Bought new Michelin AT 2's in Aug 2011. Was a little concerned that I might have to get snows for the winter 2011-2012. Well, these tires are performing beautifully in deep snow, hard packed snow, ice, sloppy slush combo. Got caught in a white out about 11 miles west of Old Forge NY a few weeks ago. 4-5 inches on top of ice, just about zero visibility blowing heavy 2 inch plus per hour snow. This was the first test for these tires and they loved it.
This past weekend hard packed snow, ice on the side streets Adirondacks absolutely no problem. Darn truck just loves to romp in the snow. I even pulled into some deep plowed snow banks several feet high (just about climbed them) ... no problems. Wife kept on asking "what are you doing" ? for which I replied ... "testing my dear", "testing".
* I did add (3) 40 lb bags of wood pellets in the back for a little grounding. Definitely needed that little extra weight. *
Warning - Black Ice not so good, but what tires are? The cop next to me with snows was all over the road. At least I could more forward and stay in a straight line. Others could not.
Love This Truck !! Love the Michelin AT 2's
ya, definitly a bad idea but couldn't help but suggest. I actually did this on several occations when I was a kid and got stuck in the pasture feeding the cows with the old truck until one day I slipped and fell on my face in the mud while the truck was creeping in low toward the fence - ah to be 15-16 again.
I was't joking about the ice forming under the tires - I had this happen one time on my van on a hill and it slid down and hit a car after the ice formed.
I was't joking about the ice forming under the tires - I had this happen one time on my van on a hill and it slid down and hit a car after the ice formed.
I have a set of Yokohama Geolander AT/Ss. During the last lake effect snow event here in southern Michigan, I had no problems with traction while everyone else was struggling. I love the 4runner in the snow. The Geolanders are great in the snow, but quick to slide if there are any icy spots at all.
JB.
New member
No argument.
I would only point out that, rather than an all-season, the performance in question is of an A/T, which should close some of the gap.
Greydog
Member
Corrado, it may have been a fluke, who can say now.
But here is a thought: go to the TireRack website and pull up a pic of the Wrangler and a Revo II. You'll notice that the Revo has alot more siping and varying tread design. The Revo has perhaps more than 100% greater siping.
In a situation where you are not on cold/packed snow, the surface is usually a combo of wet/slush with freezing of the surface taking place. That is the worst surface for grip.
The siping is the KEY ingredient in these conditions, and perhaps played a role (maybe not all the issue for sure) at both the parking spot and also the downhill part.
I'll bet your Audi snowtires have a ton of siping ?
FYI - Had an A4 Quattro 5sp a few years back, with Dunlop snows, that freaking car was crazy fun in the winter, you really has to beach the mid section of the car to get stuck. Man, I miss that car
Just a consideration if you are thinking a single set of tires is better for you, perhaps consider the various tires on the market that may offer better performance in these conditions.
Just food for thought.
- Mark.
But here is a thought: go to the TireRack website and pull up a pic of the Wrangler and a Revo II. You'll notice that the Revo has alot more siping and varying tread design. The Revo has perhaps more than 100% greater siping.
In a situation where you are not on cold/packed snow, the surface is usually a combo of wet/slush with freezing of the surface taking place. That is the worst surface for grip.
The siping is the KEY ingredient in these conditions, and perhaps played a role (maybe not all the issue for sure) at both the parking spot and also the downhill part.
I'll bet your Audi snowtires have a ton of siping ?
FYI - Had an A4 Quattro 5sp a few years back, with Dunlop snows, that freaking car was crazy fun in the winter, you really has to beach the mid section of the car to get stuck. Man, I miss that car
Just a consideration if you are thinking a single set of tires is better for you, perhaps consider the various tires on the market that may offer better performance in these conditions.
Just food for thought.
- Mark.
TSO
New member
For what it's worth, the best "A/S" tire I've seen, as a complete all-season, mostly HIGHWAY tire, is probably the Michelin LT-X M+S. It is, however, expensive... and does lack true off-road capabilities.
You can have DiscountTire sipe your tires for around $10/ea. However, the siping quality won't be anywhere near as effective as OEM siping, mainly because OEM siping is much finer, and typically with "jagged" patterns, for lateral grip as well as straight-forward grip. The other MAIN factor is that WINTER tires are designed with a much softer compound, making the sipes more effective; what happens is when the tire comes in contact with the ground, the weight of the vehicle spreads the sipes apart, and as pressure is decreased (in weight) the sipes draw back together, squeezing or "gripping" the surface. This becomes much more effective with a softer compound tire vs harder compound.
You can have DiscountTire sipe your tires for around $10/ea. However, the siping quality won't be anywhere near as effective as OEM siping, mainly because OEM siping is much finer, and typically with "jagged" patterns, for lateral grip as well as straight-forward grip. The other MAIN factor is that WINTER tires are designed with a much softer compound, making the sipes more effective; what happens is when the tire comes in contact with the ground, the weight of the vehicle spreads the sipes apart, and as pressure is decreased (in weight) the sipes draw back together, squeezing or "gripping" the surface. This becomes much more effective with a softer compound tire vs harder compound.
I wouldn't recommend sipping of any tire that will be used off road as it opens the tread up to easier damage from rocks.
I have found that good AT tires ususally perform ok on snow. The problem is when you are driving on ice or frozen snow that the winter tires make the difference. For the occasional time that I have those conditions, I throw chains on my ATs. My snowmobiling buddy has studed tires he puts on his 4x4 in the winter - he lives on a hill that gets icy and we use his truck with trailer when we go snowmobiling - usually compacted frozen snow on the access roads - and they make a huge difference. He sort of forgot about the trailer on a trip last year and while taking a turn that was comfortable with studs, the trailer was trying to pass us and still didn't make truck slip.
I have found that good AT tires ususally perform ok on snow. The problem is when you are driving on ice or frozen snow that the winter tires make the difference. For the occasional time that I have those conditions, I throw chains on my ATs. My snowmobiling buddy has studed tires he puts on his 4x4 in the winter - he lives on a hill that gets icy and we use his truck with trailer when we go snowmobiling - usually compacted frozen snow on the access roads - and they make a huge difference. He sort of forgot about the trailer on a trip last year and while taking a turn that was comfortable with studs, the trailer was trying to pass us and still didn't make truck slip.
