Fluid Choice, Illegal Warranty Denial and Magnuson–Moss Act

[XswampX]

Why would you event worry about changing your ATF on a 2016 with 8k miles? It's got World Standard from the factory and has no service interval last I checked. The only time we replaced WS fluid at Lexus was if the transmission was acting up. I've seen cars with over 200k miles and no issues and never had the fluid replaced. If you're really worried about it just use Toyota WS ATF since you'll probably never replace it again.

I believe I fully covered those questions/points fully above (and agreed its largely overkill).

Edit: Also, since you're in SD, which "Independent Toyota Shop"?

I took my truck to TLS.

While the dealer staff may not know more about engineering than you do, all they have to do is pour the right fluid that the engineer that knows far more than you do tells them to. Every fluid change does not require a re-engineering effort to accomplish.

What part of the situation are you missing that many Toyota dealers may not even being using fluids exactly per Toyota spec.? This has been discussed in multiple threads on maintenance and fluids.

 

[XswampX]

This is mainly why I am saying that if you are going to use a non-factory approved fluid (i.e. any fluid that Toyota has not officially approved or licensed for use in it's vehicles) you better be sure it matches the specs the vehicle requires; not just blindly believe whatever BS they may say on the bottle. Because IF it ever came down to a warranty issue where they decided to deny it based on the use of an aftermarket fluid; you'd have to prove that the fluid meets the spec, and I doubt corporate lawyers are gonna let "the bottle says so" slide in court without serious evidence to prove it really is the same fluid.

The flip side there is if a fluid manufacturer makes the clear claim in writing on every bottle that a particular fluid meets a particular spec, when challenged, either in a formal legal way or otherwise, they better be able to prove it. This leads me right back to the bold language in the OP...

 

[XswampX]

Automotive fluids are manufactured to meet a specification and virtually every fluid available for sale meets the applicable specification.

it certainly is not that simple... Lots of oils do or don't official meet an oil specification and that is increasingly on a vehicle OEM by OEM case.

Assuming that the proper grade and spec fluid was used, if Toyota denied a warranty claim because "x" fluid was used instead of 'y", the manufacturer of "x" would file suit against Toyota before the sun went down.

I'm not nearly so optimistic in a fluid manufacturer being quite so willing to immediately "step up" in such a strong way. It does though go back again to my OP. If I have the VP of Valvoline saying that warranties may not be denied on such issues, I would expect some support from them if such a very low probability case required it. I would expect support in my legal action but wouldn't necessarily expect their own immediate and independent action.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

The flip side there is if a fluid manufacturer makes the clear claim in writing on every bottle that a particular fluid meets a particular spec, when challenged, either in a formal legal way or otherwise, they better be able to prove it. This leads me right back to the bold language in the OP...

Here's the rub, say Toyota did deny warranty because you used Maxlife instead of WS ATF. You now have to get Valvoline to fight for you, meanwhile you're stuck with either the repair bill, a down vehicle, and/or both until it's resolved. Maybe they will go to fight for you and maybe they will even win; but in the meantime while you're waiting either a short or very long time, you're still stuck with the bill and the broken vehicle.

I've spoken with the Valvoline reps when they came to my old dealer as a supplier, the rough impression (though very openly worded to avoid specifics from their mouths of course) was that Valvoline won't bother fighting Toyota because their fluid comes with it's own warranty that they'll use to cover damages if denied. I was even given a nice little letter by the VP/CEO/whatever that stated they would honor their warranty on a transmission failed because you used Maxlife regardless of what the manufacturer says. The question then becomes, what does their 3rd party warranty cover? Brand new Toyota transmission with factory fluid and no questions asked, or a LKQ used transmission with low miles, or a "rebuilt" one from someone like AAMCO? They didn't really specify that part.

Like I said, they circumvent the need to fight Toyota because they offer their "warranty" on the fluid (basically they're saying "sure the MM says you can't deny the consumer if you use our fluid, but if/when they do, don't even worry about it we'll cover it under our warranty so we don't have to fight the manufacturer and reveal the small possibility that the fluid does not in fact meet those specs"). Considering they've got contradictory information on the side of the bottle when it comes to WS ATF Applicability, that's an exploitable ambiguity that a manufacturer's lawyers would dig in on most likely; my guess is even if they did take them to court, it'd end up with a settlement between the two and no real resolution for the consumer. Maybe Maxlife is the same as WS ATF, but without anyway for the end user (you or I) to determine what WS ATF is and what Maxlife is and to compare those scientifically; there's no footing to say that it meets said spec in any authoritative manner beyond blindly believing the bottle.

 

[FourEyedWilly]

This is a great read coming from both sides.

It does makes me ask the silly question though, is the aftermarket fluid all that much better than Toyota's approved? And, is the answer conjecture, fact, or marketing?

And after all said and done, is the goal to make the drivetrain component last longer, better mpg, or just to say I use all super cool slippery stuff.

I do like reading about this stuff. I don't know if the risk is worth the reward on this one. I got to 400K miles on my first Toyota running 20/50 dino-juice. Got stolen before it could give up the ghost.

 

[T5RUNNER]

VW got sued a while back because in North America for a while there was a specific VW spec (I forget which, I really need to find the specific case as it was an interesting read/outcome) that was only available from the dealer. People went the cheap route, ruined their engine and got mad when VW said "you used the wrong oil (they tested the oil, which from the few Mercedes and VW guys I have talked to is actually very common practice in engine failure warranty cases), you don't get warranty" they won the lawsuit because their excuse of "it's not our fault only one manufacturer, who happens to supply VW brand oil, is the only suitable oil that meets the spec in North America".

As usual it is amazing that Blackworks takes the time to repeatedly break this stuff down for everyone, but I'm glad he brought this part up because its what I don't understand about WS fluid. VW lost the case because it is illegal to require proprietary maintenance items to maintain a warranty. Manufacturers could charge any price, or just not sell them at all, and get out of their obligation. This is for all products, not just cars. So how does Toyota get away with keeping the specs for WS a secret and requiring its use?

 

[MeefZah]

Snore........

 

[Victor_inox]

I trust a Toyota engineer over some guy who thinks he knows better any day.

Not worth the legal trouble for me. I do wish you the best of luck.

I second that motion.

 

[Stangboy]

I know from personal experience that sometimes aftermarket fluids are a lot better than the OEM stuff. When I bought my Scion FR-S it was plagued by a notchy shifting. Scion for some reason specified a GL3 fluid, GL3 isn't even a valid designation anymore, having been superseded by the GL4 designation. The dealership couldn't even get the replacement fluid at the time, so after searching around I went with Pentosin fluid, which is a GL4 spec. It was a night and day difference. Much easier shifting. When the OEM fluid became available I swapped back, and right back to harder shifting. Out it came and back went the Pentosin. It was an expensive experiment.