Future of the 4Runner

[mideastbeast61]

The last 4Runner that I owned was a 2001, hand me down, and it was my first car which was given to me in 2007 (sold about two years ago). Recently I started looking at getting a new 4R and it got me thinking. With the FJ being discontinued, and Jeep adding diesel engines to the Wrangler and Grand Cherokee, what is Toyota going to do. I just wanted to ask where you guys think the direction of the 4R is going after the mid-5th gen refresh comes and goes. Obviously Toyota will come out with something, and I'm curious as to what it may be. Personally I would like to see a vehicle that is a hybrid between an FJ (size) and a 4R (literally everything else). What do you guys want to happen or think will happen in the coming years?

 

[Lolrax]

I just feel like the T4R is a fossil that could easily disappear without hurting Toyota's bottom line very much. A slightly larger Highlander could easily bridge the gap between Rav4 and Sequoia. Is the off-road enthusiast crowd big enough to save these cars? I dont know.

 

[Biggcrisp]

This is what I want

 

[Biggcrisp]

Reality check

 

[KidVermicious]

Is the Toyota-buying off-road enthusiast crowd big enough to save these cars?

Fixed that for you, and no. For hells sake, you just called it a car - that's pretty telling, right there.

Look at the percentage of 4th and 5th gen guys here on the forum that actually wheel their trucks, and I'm not talking about the guys that buy a Shrockworks bumper and some lights and get a thrill from splashing through a mud puddle, I mean really wheel their trucks. There's not very many of them, and that's on an enthusiasts board that leans strongly towards the offroader side of the spectrum.

If you step back and look at the demographic that Toyota is selling these trucks to (not talking about just who is on the board now), it's dominated by soccer moms and wanna-be's who want to be comforted by owning a truck with the reputation of being capable and tough, but want it to act like a car. Since the 1st gen got IFS in 1986, every generation of 4Runner has gotten more refined and more car-like to appeal to this broader base of buyers. Sometimes Toyota has managed to make those changes without compromising the truck's offroad ability, but not often. Jeep has done their damndest to keep the Wrangler an off-road capable vehicle first, and a comfortable truck second... Toyota has not done the same with the 4Runner, and obviously doesn't see the value in having a vehicle like that in their US lineup.

If there's a 6th generation 4Runner (and there probably will be), it will be wider than the 5th gen, lower than the 5th gen, and with more bells and whistles and shit to go wrong than the 5th gen.

 

[Jayhawk5G]

I really hope Toyota doesn't get rid of the 4Runner. The only scenario that I would be ok with, is if they wanted to expand the LandCruiser line and were really transitioning the 4Runner into a smaller LandCruiser and didn't want the 4Runner to steal sales. It would be more like a "re-naming" for the 4Runner... even at the smaller sales figures if you do th math on units sold and the average prices we are paying, they are still making a good amount on 4Runner.

 

[Blacksunshyne]

Look at the percentage of 4th and 5th gen guys here on the forum that actually wheel their trucks, and I'm not talking about the guys that buy a Shrockworks bumper and some lights and get a thrill from splashing through a mud puddle, I mean really wheel their trucks. There's not very many of them, and that's on an enthusiasts board that leans strongly towards the offroader side of the spectrum.

To be fair to all us 4th and 5th gen types, the models have not been out quite long enough to see people use them in the more hardcore wheeling end of things just yet. It is hard to cough up ~40K for a nice new Toyota and then take it and beat it like you would older FJ60s, FJ80s, and are now seeing just a few 100 series. Give it time for the 4th and 5th gens to depreciate and you will see them used more and more in that capacity. I think a current generation has to be at least 10 years old before you see them used much in the heavy off-roading capacity.

I already have plans to do a SAS with D4D diesel and a manual transmission...once I hit 300,000 +.

 

[Intruder]

To be fair to all us 4th and 5th gen types, the models have not been out quite long enough to see people use them in the more hardcore wheeling end of things just yet.

I'm seeing a lot more 5th gens on the road out here than I did last year. And where I never saw other 5th gens on the trail when I got mine a couple years ago there are now two other 5th gens that wheel with me and both of them are on here too - EasylyConfused and OlBaditude.

Can see all three of us on the trail in this pic.


IMGP3534.jpg by BurningChr0me, on Flickr

 

[eddiebx]

Fixed that for you, and no. For hells sake, you just called it a car - that's pretty telling, right there.

Look at the percentage of 4th and 5th gen guys here on the forum that actually wheel their trucks, and I'm not talking about the guys that buy a Shrockworks bumper and some lights and get a thrill from splashing through a mud puddle, I mean really wheel their trucks. There's not very many of them, and that's on an enthusiasts board that leans strongly towards the offroader side of the spectrum.

If you step back and look at the demographic that Toyota is selling these trucks to (not talking about just who is on the board now), it's dominated by soccer moms and wanna-be's who want to be comforted by owning a truck with the reputation of being capable and tough, but want it to act like a car. Since the 1st gen got IFS in 1986, every generation of 4Runner has gotten more refined and more car-like to appeal to this broader base of buyers. Sometimes Toyota has managed to make those changes without compromising the truck's offroad ability, but not often. Jeep has done their damndest to keep the Wrangler an off-road capable vehicle first, and a comfortable truck second... Toyota has not done the same with the 4Runner, and obviously doesn't see the value in having a vehicle like that in their US lineup.

If there's a 6th generation 4Runner (and there probably will be), it will be wider than the 5th gen, lower than the 5th gen, and with more bells and whistles and shit to go wrong than the 5th gen.

I completely agree with what you are saying, but just to put things into better perspective, do you happen to know what were the buyer demographics like for the 4runners back in the 80s and 90s when they were brand new? I think this would be a more fair comparison.

I cannot speak for every locality nationwide, but I see plenty of middle age women rolling around in 3rd gens; as a matter of fact one of my friends whom would qualify as a "soccer mom", recently got rid of her 99' 4runner that she owned since new and never spent a second of her life off-road (minus driving up sidewalks accidentally ).

 

[KidVermicious]

To be fair to all us 4th and 5th gen types, the models have not been out quite long enough to see people use them in the more hardcore wheeling end of things just yet. It is hard to cough up ~40K for a nice new Toyota and then take it and beat it like you would older FJ60s, FJ80s, and are now seeing just a few 100 series. Give it time for the 4th and 5th gens to depreciate and you will see them used more and more in that capacity. I think a current generation has to be at least 10 years old before you see them used much in the heavy off-roading capacity.

I already have plans to do a SAS with D4D diesel and a manual transmission...once I hit 300,000 +.

This is kinda my point though - you didn't buy your 4Runner to be a truck, you bought it and are using it like a nice car that looks like a truck. Toyota sees this. They don't care what people who are driving 200,000+ miles trucks are going to do, because Toyota isn't selling those trucks. They're selling new trucks, and the majority of people buying new 4Runners aren't going to use them as rugged offroad machines, they're going to use them to go to work and get groceries and have 4WD just in case of a snowstorm or a beach trip and they want the truck to "be comfortable" and "handle nicely" while they do that.

I don't intend to bag on anybody with a later model truck or imply that y'all are wimps or your trucks suck . But the OP was curious what direction the next 4Runner's offroad capability will go in, and it's going to be the same direction it's been going in, and that's down, because actually using the truck as an offroad vehicle is not the priority of the vast majority of Toyota's sales demographic.

 

[KCcarguy]

Look at the percentage of 4th and 5th gen guys here on the forum that actually wheel their trucks, and I'm not talking about the guys that buy a Shrockworks bumper and some lights and get a thrill from splashing through a mud puddle, I mean really wheel their trucks. There's not very many of them, and that's on an enthusiasts board that leans strongly towards the offroader side

I think this has to do with cost and newness than how "hard-core" new owners are. Not many people want to beat the piss out of their new $40k truck. I'd bet nearly every initial buyer of every generation 1st-5th was the same.

And to be honest, if I were a serious rock-crawling wheeler, I'd buy a TJ not a 4runner regardless of generation.

 

[Thai]

Ever since this forum was created, you see these threads pop up every few months questioning the future of 4runners. 3rd gen owners moaning that 4runners will become minivans. 4th gen owners moaning that 5th gens will be minivans. And now, 5th gens moaning that 6th gen will be minivans. Over 10 years spread, and nothing has changed.

Toyota will forever have Highlanders because that is what the Lexus RX is based on. Midsize SUV with unibody and car-like suspension for the soccer moms. If 4runners go bye-bye, then where is the rugged midsize SUV that can tow?

In addition, 4runner namesake is too valuable for Toyota to give up. FJ name will die long before 4runner will. With the 5th gen introduction, Toyota shows NO SIGNS that it is giving up on the rugged midsize SUV category...probably because they have more money than anyone else and thus can make vehicles for every category. In fact, if you look at it, then you will see that Toyota actually went MORE RUGGED with the 5th gen rather than sissifying it. So, Toyota actually went against what some of you guys were predicting!

Look at Land Cruiser and LX570...despite the trend for luxury SUVs to be car-like, Toyota still kept the solid axle and BOF design while managing to make it ultra-comfy. Why? Well, like the 4runner, Land Cruiser/LX570 platform NEEDS to be rugged because they are much needed in 3rd world nations. For the 4runner, Highlander platform won't do as a substitute for Prados worldwide. In other parts of the world, Prados/Hilux derivatives are rugged because they NEED to be! You can't throw in a Camry and expect it to last long there. So, developmental cost of 4runners (and Land Cruiser) is NOT that high since it is shared worldwide...they are not niche vehicles.

The ONLY one that I fear will die is the Lexus GX. I think that the next Lexus GX will be Highlander based except that it can carry 7 people...to serve as a step up from RX.

But, 4runners? Nah, it will continue on as a rugged SUV with BOF design and solid rear axle. Not because we need it, but the rest of the world needs it to be rugged! That is what defines the future of 4runners.

 

[Thai]

I'd buy a TJ

You mean...Jeep JK, right? TJ was good, but JK platform (and powertrain) is much better!

 

[Thai]

What will Toyota do in the future to compete? Easy. Direct-injection V6 for more power while sipping less fuel. Cylinder de-activation like Hondas (hopefully not! I don't trust this tech). 8-speed automatic to further decrease highway fuel consumption (maybe numerically lower final drive ratio), but still maintain strong pickup in the lower gears and thus crawl ratio. Full synthetic oil, if not done already. Smooth out the creases to improve airflow...maybe those active air shutters to improve airflow on the highway. High-tensile steel in more places to decrease weight while retaining crash strength. Further weight loss with newer technology on sound deadening and materials.

I am sure that there are more tricks that smarter engineers can do. As more of these technologies get apply, then it will be cheaper to incorporate in non-luxury vehicles.

 

[gwcpa]

You mean...Jeep JK, right? TJ was good, but JK platform (and powertrain) is much better!

Disagree on that one. Until the Pentastar in '12 the drivetrain sucked. Minivan motor with no low end torque. The TJ was the last real Jeep with a tub on frame.

I've got an LJ for wheeling and top down fun, the 4Runner for towing and comfort. I will take it on the beach and in snow, but it won't get onto trails unless on a pretty easy fire road to a campsite.

 

[Thai]

Disagree on that one. Until the Pentastar in '12 the drivetrain sucked. Minivan motor with no low end torque. The TJ was the last real Jeep with a tub on frame.

That's my point...Pentastar makes the JK unbeatable. The JK frame is also much stronger than TJ...by a long shot! Then you add in the 4-wheel traction control that works with the axle lockers. The D44-hybrid axles on the JK Rubicon is also significantly stronger than the TJ Rubicon models. The JK lockers themselves are faster engaging and just as strong. Basically, I can't think of one area where the TJ is better other than maybe the 4.0 I6 engine was easier to work on than Pentastar.

 

[gwcpa]

That's my point...Pentastar makes the JK unbeatable. The JK frame is also much stronger than TJ...by a long shot! Then you add in the 4-wheel traction control that works with the axle lockers. The D44-hybrid axles on the JK Rubicon is also significantly stronger than the TJ Rubicon models. The JK lockers themselves are faster engaging and just as strong. Basically, I can't think of one area where the TJ is better other than maybe the 4.0 I6 engine was easier to work on than Pentastar.

The context was if NCcarguy was going to "rockcrawl" he wouldn't take a 40K T4R to do it, he'd get a cheap TJ. Most of the 35-40K Rubicons and Unlimiteds bought new don't get rockcrawled either for the same reason. So for a cheap and capable off road vehicle a TJ or LJ with a 4.0...over a cheap '07-11 3.8 JK FTW. But thanks for the option update of the new JKs anyway.

 

[Hellamatic]

I think the 4Runner will be safe for at least another generation. When the 5th gens first came out, Toyota even admitted that the reason why they went a little more rugged than the 4th gens and moved away from making the 'Runner more crossover-esque was because the Highlander already fills the crossover niche. There was no sense in making the 4Runner into what was essentially a Highlander with different body work.

I'm not surprised the FJ is being discontinued (there has been rumors of it since 2010,) but the 4Runner is still an essential part of the model lineup - with the Sequoia and FJ going away, there is still a need for a midsize SUV with decent towing capabilities

The FJ has too much of a polarizing "love it or hate it" design (as does the 5th gen 4Runner, arguably,) so I'm betting Toyota has eliminated the FJ in order to concentrate on dedicating more resources to building a 6th gen 4Runner that will appeal to the masses, as well as the off-road crowd. Theoretically, by doing this they will save tons of cash in R&D, tooling, advertising, etc - and with enough efforts behind the 4Runner, it could potentially outsell what the 5th gen and the FJ combined would have sold.

 

[KCcarguy]

You mean...Jeep JK, right? TJ was good, but JK platform (and powertrain) is much better!

Disagree on that one. Until the Pentastar in '12 the drivetrain sucked. Minivan motor with no low end torque. The TJ was the last real Jeep with a tub on frame.

I've got an LJ for wheeling and top down fun, the 4Runner for towing and comfort. I will take it on the beach and in snow, but it won't get onto trails unless on a pretty easy fire road to a campsite.

Like [MENTION=63859]gwcpa[/MENTION] is saying, the TJ is sort of the ultimate Jeep in many people's opinion. They are refined enough for the street, but still simply and ruggedly built with a proven drivetrain. They hold their value extremely well because of this. I would LOVE to have a LJ Rubicon lifted on 35's.....sooooo jealous!

4runners are a great overall compromise IMO, they have more capability than most people need (or have the guts to test), but are still comfortable, roomy and usable as a family hauler.

I'm with you Thai, Toyota will never go car-based with the 4runner because there are too many places/ markets that value that BOF ruggedness in the Prado, Fortuner, Hilux, etc.

 

[KodeRush]

now two other 5th gens that wheel with me and both of them are on here too

I'm trying to be the 4th...