Has anyone gone from Land Rover to 4Runner?

[PNTRDPROO]

New vehicles have these great things called warranties. For that 1% of the time that the vehicle is in for repairs, you'll have another vehicle to drive in it's place. It's not a big deal at all. During the 10 years that I owned my 4th gen (purchased it new in '04), it spent a few days at the dealership getting warranty repair work done and I got another car to drive. I didn't lose any sleep over not having my 4Runner for that short time.

How a repair/repairs get paid for has nothing to do with anything. Where are you getting your 1% number from? A reliable vehicle can spend 1% of its time getting warranty work done.... How about an "unreliable" or less reliable one? I dont think all of the people who have posted in this thread stating that their Land/Range Rovers were unreliable and couldnt wait to get out of them would have been so upset if their vehicles only spent 1% of the duration of ownership getting worked on.

You are saying that in 3 years, an "unreliable" vehicle will spend only 11 days total getting warranty work done. I dont think too many people would be upset about that, nor would I even consider that to be very unreliable. Id gladly purchase a Range Rover if the only catch would be that it would spend 3-4 days a year total at the dealer. And Im sure most of the owners who have made the swap from one would have kept them if that were the case. I think you are way off there. We are not talking about a Toyota here.

Plus, depending on the brand of vehicle you have, and the particular dealership you go to, and the type of work needing to be done, there is no guarantee that you will even be given a loaner car. Bring a new Grand Cherokee into any old Jeep dealership and see if they just automatically offer you a loaner car... And even if you are guaranteed a loaner for each warranty work visit, you are not paying $500+ a month to drive a loaner vehicle.... You are paying to drive your vehicle and the expectation should be that a new vehicle will start right up everytime and not give you problems youd expect from something with 150,000+ miles

 

[JSparky]

So tell me, how much does your confidence increase doing that sort of thing in a 4Runner versus a Jeep? Quantify it and give me a number....actually a percentage. How much, percentage-wise, does your confidence increase? I'm looking forward to your answer....

Well I sold the Jeep and drive a Toyota now? Quantifying an emotional feeling into statistically significant figures isn't my field, not that I'd waste my time. I was simply stating a differing opinion, that a vehicles reliability is a valid concern to some.

New vehicles have these great things called warranties. For that 1% of the time that the vehicle is in for repairs, you'll have another vehicle to drive in it's place. It's not a big deal at all. During the 10 years that I owned my 4th gen (purchased it new in '04), it spent a few days at the dealership getting warranty repair work done and I got another car to drive. I didn't lose any sleep over not having my 4Runner for that short time.

My bought-new Jeep spent more than 1% of its life in the shop by a comfortable margin. I find it funny that you ask me to calculate some seemingly scientific percentage when you throw them around so nonchalantly. I wouldn't normally double quote like this but you posted this literally right after your comment to me. Goodluck with whatever you're trying to achieve here, I'm tuning-out. :thumb3:

 

[T.Rock]

Well I sold the Jeep and drive a Toyota now? Quantifying an emotional feeling into statistically significant figures isn't my field, not that I'd waste my time. I was simply stating a differing opinion, that a vehicles reliability is a valid concern to some.



My bought-new Jeep spent more than 1% of its life in the shop by a comfortable margin. I find it funny that you ask me to calculate some seemingly scientific percentage when you throw them around so nonchalantly. I wouldn't normally double quote like this but you posted this literally right after your comment to me. Goodluck with whatever you're trying to achieve here, I'm tuning-out. :thumb3:

Well, all I can say is thanks for admitting that you're talking about emotions and not anything that can actually be quantified. Like I said, if the "feel good" feeling is what's important to you, then that's fine. That doesn't mean anything outside of emotions though.

Funny that you mention that your Jeep spent more than 1% of its life in the shop, but then you offer no indication of just how much time it did spend in the shop. I've owned my new GC for four months now. It spent one day in the shop. That's less than 1%, so I guess I'm ahead of the curve. LOL

 

[T.Rock]

Where are you getting your 1% number from?

Experience. And not just my own personal vehicles. I worked many years as a dealership technician (Toyota, BTW) and our work orders had service history printing on the back.

1% is a fair number. That equates to roughly 3.5 days per year getting repairs performed. The majority of new vehicles out there DO NOT spend more than 3.5 days in the shop for repairs. That much should be obvious.

For my own vehicles, I can say that I haven't ever owned a vehicle that spent more than 3 days in the shop in any given year. In fact, nowhere near that. Maybe one day in the shop in a 3 to 4 year span. Am I just incredibly lucky? I think not. I think most cars (any brand/manufacturer) are basically reliable these days and that's why I say that there are people here that are blowing this way out of proportion.

 

[T.Rock]

Plus, depending on the brand of vehicle you have, and the particular dealership you go to, and the type of work needing to be done, there is no guarantee that you will even be given a loaner car. Bring a new Grand Cherokee into any old Jeep dealership and see if they just automatically offer you a loaner car... And even if you are guaranteed a loaner for each warranty work visit, you are not paying $500+ a month to drive a loaner vehicle.... You are paying to drive your vehicle and the expectation should be that a new vehicle will start right up everytime and not give you problems youd expect from something with 150,000+ miles

Loaner cars aren't a problem. When it comes to Jeep, a lot of guys buy the extended warranty that guarantees them a loaner. But even so, it's not a problem to get a loaner. For me personally, it makes no difference, as I have multiple cars and don't really need a loaner anyway. Plus, the days in the shop are so few and far between that it wouldn't be a hardship no matter the situations.

And what's wrong with driving a loaner vehicle anyway? You may be paying $500/month (I pay for my cars in cash), but what's the difference if you're driving another car for a day or two? You're not racking up miles on your car during that period, so what's the big deal? You'll be back in your own car in a day or two most of the time.

 

[Jetboy]

Experience. And not just my own personal vehicles. I worked many years as a dealership technician (Toyota, BTW) and our work orders had service history printing on the back.

1% is a fair number. That equates to roughly 3.5 days per year getting repairs performed. The majority of new vehicles out there DO NOT spend more than 3.5 days in the shop for repairs. That much should be obvious.

For my own vehicles, I can say that I haven't ever owned a vehicle that spent more than 3 days in the shop in any given year. In fact, nowhere near that. Maybe one day in the shop in a 3 to 4 year span. Am I just incredibly lucky? I think not. I think most cars (any brand/manufacturer) are basically reliable these days and that's why I say that there are people here that are blowing this way out of proportion.

1 day per year? I think you're off by an order of magnitude for unreliable cars. For example every LR vehicle averages 2.2 "problems" in the first year and 76.2% of Land Rover vehicles will require components be replaced within the first year. I'm 100% certain that the average shop time to have components replaced is more than 1 day. It's at least 3-5 days, but probably more like 5-7 by the time you have diagnostics, parts ordered, and then replaced and the vehicle delivered. LR sells <50,000 cars per year total. Compared to Toyota it's practically a kit car. No way LR has a full stock of replacement parts on hand.

And that's year 1. Not hard to figure out how things are going at year 10.

 

[T.Rock]

1 day per year? I think you're off by an order of magnitude for unreliable cars. For example every LR vehicle averages 2.2 "problems" in the first year and 76.2% of Land Rover vehicles will require components be replaced within the first year. I'm 100% certain that the average shop time to have components replaced is more than 1 day. It's at least 3-5 days, but probably more like 5-7 by the time you have diagnostics, parts ordered, and then replaced and the vehicle delivered. LR sells <50,000 cars per year total. Compared to Toyota it's practically a kit car. No way LR has a full stock of replacement parts on hand.

And that's year 1. Not hard to figure out how things are going at year 10.

Not sure where you got the idea that I said one day per year. I said 1% (which I'm using as an average, btw), which equates to approximately 3.5 days per year. It's simple math. If there are 365 days in a year and your vehicle ends up in the shop for 3.5 days, then we can say that equals approximately 1% of the time in the shop. And again, I'm talking repairs. Maintenance is maintenance and all vehicles need to be maintained.

If you're talking about me saying that most dealership visits are one or two days, that's completely valid. Like I said, I worked as a tech at a dealership and trust me when I say the vast majority of cars were in and out in a single day. The only time we had a car in the shop for more than one day is when absolutely necessary. Most of the time, it was because we had to wait until the next day for a part. That's not typically a problem though, because the supply chain for parts is very good and very fast.

 

[1engineer]

The following chart is on number of visits per year and JGC sells more units than the 4Runner right? Well, through Sept 2014 45.1% of JGC owners had problems that required it be taken to the shop. 4Runner owners had 6.5% of owners that had problems that required a shop visit. Couldn't find unbiased reporting of Range Rover numbers but the LR4 numbers were on par with Jeep. Here is the chart.

 

[PNTRDPROO]

Loaner cars aren't a problem. When it comes to Jeep, a lot of guys buy the extended warranty that guarantees them a loaner. But even so, it's not a problem to get a loaner. For me personally, it makes no difference, as I have multiple cars and don't really need a loaner anyway. Plus, the days in the shop are so few and far between that it wouldn't be a hardship no matter the situations.

And what's wrong with driving a loaner vehicle anyway? You may be paying $500/month (I pay for my cars in cash), but what's the difference if you're driving another car for a day or two? You're not racking up miles on your car during that period, so what's the big deal? You'll be back in your own car in a day or two most of the time.

In NYC, not every dealer has loaner cars.

Also, it is a big deal if I have to drive a loaner car because mine is in the shop. Its a quality of life issue. I should not be stressed by a vehicle I payed (in full or monthly) for with my hard earned money. If nobody cared about quality and reliability then nobody would buy new cars.

Not to mention the plethora of potential instances where something is happening with your car and a dealer "cannot replicate" it and issues drag on for months before any action is taken. Those are instances where little annoyances can become large headaches that time in the dealership doesnt even reflect. There are a lot of factors here.

You worked for a Toyota dealership correct? One of the most notoriously reliable brands on the planet. Its no wonder you didnt see the same vehicle very often. Thats not a very fair basis for an argument.

 

[T.Rock]

The following chart is on number of visits per year and JGC sells more units than the 4Runner right? Well, through Sept 2014 45.1% of JGC owners had problems that required it be taken to the shop. 4Runner owners had 6.5% of owners that had problems that required a shop visit. Couldn't find unbiased reporting of Range Rover numbers but the LR4 numbers were on par with Jeep. Here is the chart.

Greg, Greg, Greg....what are we going to do with you? First of all, that chart says absolutely nothing about number of visits per year. And furthermore, the number of vehicles sold is meaningless too, simply because it's based on percentage of respondents. No doubt that there are a lot more GC on the roads than 4Runners, but that is meaningless when you're dealing with percentages.

Anyway, nobody is questioning if Toyota has a higher reliability rating than Jeep. That's a well-known fact that nobody denies. My point, for the thousandth time, is that a both a highly rated car and a lower rated car, on average, will not spend much time at all at a dealership for repairs. Now of course logic would dictate that a more reliable vehicle should spend less time at the dealership than a less reliable vehicle. That much is obvious....but lets just say that your average 4Runner owner has his vehicle at the dealership for repairs 1 day a year and your average Grand Cherokee owner has his vehicle at the dealership 3X that. Well, that means the Jeep is at the dealership a whopping 3 days per year, which still falls under my 1% per year estimate that I mentioned earlier. Seriously, it's not a big deal. Vehicles like Jeeps and Land Rovers don't spend half their lives in the service bay....they just don't. Now I'm sure some ex-Land Rover or ex-Jeep owner is going to show up and say "Hey, mine was a piece of crap and it was always in the shop". But in reality, that's most likely an extreme exaggeration. And if it's not, then it's certainly an exception and not the norm.

BTW, I find it interesting that the 2013 Jeep and the 2014 4Runner are so close on the Consumer Reports chart. It's funny how a mid-cycle refresh can make a significant difference in the ratings for both vehicles.

 

[T.Rock]

In NYC, not every dealer has loaner cars.

Also, it is a big deal if I have to drive a loaner car because mine is in the shop. Its a quality of life issue. I should not be stressed by a vehicle I payed (in full or monthly) for with my hard earned money. If nobody cared about quality and reliability then nobody would buy new cars.

Like is too short to get upset about not being able to drive your car for one or three days per year. Seriously, if that's the biggest issue in your life, you must be doing okay. LOL But in all honesty, just ask for a loaner vehicle that's the same model as yours. It could work, but most people don't care and are just happy to have transportation when their car is in the shop.

You worked for a Toyota dealership correct? One of the most notoriously reliable brands on the planet. Its no wonder you didnt see the same vehicle very often. Thats not a very fair basis for an argument.

Yes, the majority of time I was a technician, I worked for Toyota. I started out at different dealerships, but I ended up a Toyota tech and went through Toyota-specific training. And let me tell you about my bias---being a Toyota tech, I got to see the best and worst of the brand's vehicles. If Toyota's were as reliable and trouble-free as some of you guys believe, the Toyota techs would be looking elsewhere for work. No dealership service department can survive on preventative maintenance alone. They need repairs to survive.

 

[1engineer]

Greg, Greg, Greg....what are we going to do with you? First of all, that chart says absolutely nothing about number of visits per year. And furthermore, the number of vehicles sold is meaningless too, simply because it's based on percentage of respondents. No doubt that there are a lot more GC on the roads than 4Runners, but that is meaningless when you're dealing with percentages.

Anyway, nobody is questioning if Toyota has a higher reliability rating than Jeep. That's a well-known fact that nobody denies. My point, for the thousandth time, is that a both a highly rated car and a lower rated car, on average, will not spend much time at all at a dealership for repairs. Now of course logic would dictate that a more reliable vehicle should spend less time at the dealership than a less reliable vehicle. That much is obvious....but lets just say that your average 4Runner owner has his vehicle at the dealership for repairs 1 day a year and your average Grand Cherokee owner has his vehicle at the dealership 3X that. Well, that means the Jeep is at the dealership a whopping 3 days per year, which still falls under my 1% per year estimate that I mentioned earlier. Seriously, it's not a big deal. Vehicles like Jeeps and Land Rovers don't spend half their lives in the service bay....they just don't. Now I'm sure some ex-Land Rover or ex-Jeep owner is going to show up and say "Hey, mine was a piece of crap and it was always in the shop". But in reality, that's most likely an extreme exaggeration. And if it's not, then it's certainly an exception and not the norm.

BTW, I find it interesting that the 2013 Jeep and the 2014 4Runner are so close on the Consumer Reports chart. It's funny how a mid-cycle refresh can make a significant difference in the ratings for both vehicles.

Don't patronize me troll. I posted actual non biased numbers. What these numbers mean to me is if two people buy a JGC then close to one of them will be taking it to the shop. JGC sold over 180K JGC's in 2014. This means almost 90K will need to be taken to the shop!
Now using the numbers means if 20 people bought a 4runner then a bit over one of them will need to go to the shop. No comparison.
Enjoy that jeep and keep your fingers crossed.

 

[Jetboy]

Not sure where you got the idea that I said one day per year. I said 1% (which I'm using as an average, btw), which equates to approximately 3.5 days per year. It's simple math. If there are 365 days in a year and your vehicle ends up in the shop for 3.5 days, then we can say that equals approximately 1% of the time in the shop. And again, I'm talking repairs. Maintenance is maintenance and all vehicles need to be maintained.

If you're talking about me saying that most dealership visits are one or two days, that's completely valid. Like I said, I worked as a tech at a dealership and trust me when I say the vast majority of cars were in and out in a single day. The only time we had a car in the shop for more than one day is when absolutely necessary. Most of the time, it was because we had to wait until the next day for a part. That's not typically a problem though, because the supply chain for parts is very good and very fast.

One or two days is nonsense. You have actually owned a car right? Even Lexus doesn't stock many vehicle specific parts and it sells more IS250's than LR sells vehicles. LR dealers do not have extensive parts supplies on hand. And since 75% will need at least one component replaced in the first year (presumably the best year of the vehicle's life), 3.5 days is not a realistic approximation of a typical time in the dealer's possession for a new LR. Over the first 5 years I'd predict around 10 days per year on average. Many more in some cases.

 

[PNTRDPROO]

T.Rock, You can visit Jeepforum.com or ClubTouareg and see how many people go to the dealers every other month or every few months for issues.

Matter of fact, got to Coloradofans.com and see how many people with 2015 Chevy Colorados or GMC Canyons with less than 1000 miles have had HVAC system issues/replacements, AND other issues afterward. Again, your 1% figure is not accurate.

Its easy for someone with multiple vehicles to act nonchalantly if one of them has repetitive issues, but many of us have one vehicle. One vehicle that we depend on and rely on. For some of us this vehicle is a big purchase and is one of the things that we literally work for (to pay for) and when that vehicle has repetitive issues it indeed becomes a quality of life issue as a result.

Not every vehicle is made equal and 1% is a very conservative GUESS as to the frequency of visits of less than reliable vehicles. Seriously, do you think people who love everything about a vehicle would rejoice after selling it 1 year into the purchase, if it only spent 3 days a year in the shop? I dont think so...

And again, you cannot measure a vehicle's reliability based solely on the number of days it takes to fix problems at the dealer. It is not uncommon for some issues to be drawn out over weeks or months because a dealer "cannot replicate" the problem or it acts up intermittently.

I have no idea why or how you think EVERY vehicle is rock solid just because it is 2015 and the perception is that it SHOULD be that way.

 

[T.Rock]

Don't patronize me troll. I posted actual non biased numbers. What these numbers mean to me is if two people buy a JGC then close to one of them will be taking it to the shop. JGC sold over 180K JGC's in 2014. This means almost 90K will need to be taken to the shop!
Now using the numbers means if 20 people bought a 4runner then a bit over one of them will need to go to the shop. No comparison.
Enjoy that jeep and keep your fingers crossed.

Dude, don't look now, but you're the one trolling. You deleted your message earlier today. Why? Hmm....okay. I get it. Trolls will be trolls, I suppose.

But I digress. If you want to insist on numbers as they relate to percentages, consider this:

A quick Wiki search tells me that Jeep sold 255,000 Grand Cherokees in North America in the 2013 model year. And Toyota sold 76,000 4Runners in the same year. I used the 2013 model year because I could easily find the sales numbers for both vehicles.

So lets do some basic math. If half of all Grand Cherokee owners have to visit the repair shop during that first year, that obviously means that half of them didn't have to visit the repair shop. So approximately 127,000 Grand Cherokees had zero visits to the repair shop. Now lets do the math for the 4Runner. If just 15% of 4Runners owners had to visit the shop, that means, that 85% of them didn't have to visit the repair shop. So approximately 65,000 4Runners had zero repair shop visits. So maybe your odds are better as a 4Runner owner to not have to visit the shop that first year, but the fact of the matter is that there nearly TWICE the amount of Grand Cherokees on the road as there are 4Runners with zero repair shop visits. Sorry there kiddo, but those are the numbers and the numbers don't lie.

Like I said earlier, percentages are just that--percentages. But since you insist on talking numbers, I felt the need to school you on facts. Class dismissed!

 

[T.Rock]

One or two days is nonsense. You have actually owned a car right? Even Lexus doesn't stock many vehicle specific parts and it sells more IS250's than LR sells vehicles. LR dealers do not have extensive parts supplies on hand. And since 75% will need at least one component replaced in the first year (presumably the best year of the vehicle's life), 3.5 days is not a realistic approximation of a typical time in the dealer's possession for a new LR. Over the first 5 years I'd predict around 10 days per year on average. Many more in some cases.

You may have missed the part where I explained that I worked as a dealership technician. I can tell you with certainty that the vast majority of vehicles are in and out of the shop in one day. And I mean the VAST majority. BTW, the supply chain for auto parts is amazing. Parts that aren't in stock are often delivered within two hours from the time they are ordered. We used to have upwards of 8 parts deliveries per day.

 

[T.Rock]

T.Rock, You can visit Jeepforum.com or ClubTouareg and see how many people go to the dealers every other month or every few months for issues.

Auto forums are notoriously bad for trying to judge issues. Like the old say goes, people don't post to say they're having no issues, but they're quick to complain when they do have issues. I'm guilty of that as well.

Matter of fact, got to Coloradofans.com and see how many people with 2015 Chevy Colorados or GMC Canyons with less than 1000 miles have had HVAC system issues/replacements, AND other issues afterward. Again, your 1% figure is not accurate.

Again, it's biased info. And how do you know that for every person complaining, there aren't 99 others who aren't complaining? Do you not get that?

Its easy for someone with multiple vehicles to act nonchalantly if one of them has repetitive issues, but many of us have one vehicle. One vehicle that we depend on and rely on. For some of us this vehicle is a big purchase and is one of the things that we literally work for (to pay for) and when that vehicle has repetitive issues it indeed becomes a quality of life issue as a result.

I understand that and I agree. Fact of the matter is that no vehicle I've ever owned in my entire life (I'd have to count to be accurate, but I know for a fact that I've owned more than 20 vehicles) has ever spent more than 3 days per year on the shop. Now in fairness, I must admit that I do most of my own repairs, but those have been few and far between. And if my vehicle is under warranty, I'll definitely bring it in to be fixed because it's free.

Not every vehicle is made equal and 1% is a very conservative GUESS as to the frequency of visits of less than reliable vehicles. Seriously, do you think people who love everything about a vehicle would rejoice after selling it 1 year into the purchase, if it only spent 3 days a year in the shop? I dont think so...

I think it's a very fair number. Poll any random number of people with newer cars and ask them how many days their vehicle spent in the shop last year. Then average those numbers. I bet the number won't be far off from one day per year average.

And again, you cannot measure a vehicle's reliability based solely on the number of days it takes to fix problems at the dealer. It is not uncommon for some issues to be drawn out over weeks or months because a dealer "cannot replicate" the problem or it acts up intermittently.

Dealership techs don't get paid to chase down a problem they can't replicate. So 99.9% of the time, the car is returned to the owner with the dreaded "cannot duplicate customer complaint" phrase on the work order. The very first rule for any technician is to verify the customer complaint. If it can't be done, then the job is over. Simple as that. The customer may return with the same complain again (and that's very common), but if it's something that happens intermittently, it can be very difficult to replicate. The exception to the rule is an issues that happens only when the engine is ice cold. In those cases, the vehicle is almost always left overnight so the technician can do a cold start in the morning. That's how we always handled it and sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.

I have no idea why or how you think EVERY vehicle is rock solid just because it is 2015 and the perception is that it SHOULD be that way.

I don't think that. I think the majority of new vehicles are very reliable. Look, my good buddy Greg posted up a good stat that I can use as an example. Even with the worst numbers found for the Grand Cherokee, only half had a problem that resulted in a dealership. Half sounds like a lot and it IS A LOT. But it's a lot both ways---meaning that half of those vehicles DIDN'T need a dealership repair visit either. 127,000 Grand Cherokees not needing a repair that first year is also pretty significant. And to further put it in perspective, if you were to sort those repair visits out, I can absolutely guarantee you that the majority of them were for minor complaints...stuff like the infotainment system issues and whatnot.

 

[bythehour]

TRock, I'm afraid the only bias here is in your grasp of statistics.

apples and oranges, my friend. Think about it.

 

[STX4Runner]

Auto forums are notoriously bad for trying to judge issues. Like the old say goes, people don't post to say they're having no issues, but they're quick to complain when they do have issues. I'm guilty of that as well.

People post on this forum saying they haven't had any issues...

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/135428-who-has-most-miles-so-far-5th-gen.html

This is just one of several threads where people can be found saying I've had the vehicle for so long or so many miles with no issues.

 

[bythehour]

That's what struck me about T4R.org.

I've spent my share of time on Land Rover, Bimmer, MB etc. forums.

Especially with LR forums, most of the threads are about fixes and problems. There, owners are asking/begging for help.

Here, owners are usually talking about having fun with/modding their vehicles.