Head Gasket issue
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It seems to apply mostly to 2003-2005 model years. The problem definitely exists, but only effects a small percentage of the total number of vehicles. Buy a 2006 or later model and you won't have to worry about it. Buy an earlier model and you're still statistically unlikely to have a problem.
It's a good engine. Don't write it off completely.
It's a good engine. Don't write it off completely.
JeffMerr
New member
Well, there was a 100% chance it happened to my '04 4Runner V6, and it wasn't cheap to fix.
NuclearN8
New member
[MENTION=97326]JeffMerr[/MENTION] and [MENTION=1704]BenSD[/MENTION]
1) I do not work for Toyota, but I am an engineer for a transportation company
2) I never said it hasn't happened, it obiviously has to some owners and when it does it's expensive to fix, no doubt.
3) I'm a realist (in present society that gets mistaken a lot for being a pessimist. I trust the numbers to verify people's opinions (trust but verify).
The bottom line is a lot of people have opinions but very few have the data to back it up. I have tried on this issue to do my own research because there are 2, V6 4Runners in our garage (so naturally I'm concerned about this issue).
After doing my own research on this topic, which I shared in this thread
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/188699-***-v6-head-gasket-action-request-***.html
There is zero numerical evidence to support an epidemic failure issue with the 1GR-FE head gasket on any platform (Tacoma, 4Runner, FJ Cruiser either in CONUS or International markets...).
Have head gaskets failed on this engine? Absolutely. No one is disuputing this fact.
However, given the number of failures I was able to find on forums (I obviously don't have the Toyota reported data) compared to the number of total sales figures, there is no way to objectively analyze the available data and draw the conclusion that an endemic failure condition exists.
Presently, I attribute any V6 head gasket failure to bad luck, poor maintenance, and/or a combination of other failures leading to head gasket degradation in the hottest part of the engine (the Cyl 4-6 area).
(This is really all we can do unless the MoCo admits they knew there was an issue and knokwingly used a faulty part or design - I wouldn't hold your breath on this happening as all these motors are now out of the factory powertrain warranty, which means the MoCo has no more accountability for product reliability.)
If we are unlucky enough to experience a head gasket failure (despite proper maintenance and normal use), I'll either pay to have it fixed or trade it in for a Land Cruiser.
What I won't do is flame Toyota for a mechanical failure that happened far beyond the factory warranty.
1) I do not work for Toyota, but I am an engineer for a transportation company
2) I never said it hasn't happened, it obiviously has to some owners and when it does it's expensive to fix, no doubt.
3) I'm a realist (in present society that gets mistaken a lot for being a pessimist. I trust the numbers to verify people's opinions (trust but verify).
The bottom line is a lot of people have opinions but very few have the data to back it up. I have tried on this issue to do my own research because there are 2, V6 4Runners in our garage (so naturally I'm concerned about this issue).
After doing my own research on this topic, which I shared in this thread
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-gen-t4rs/188699-***-v6-head-gasket-action-request-***.html
There is zero numerical evidence to support an epidemic failure issue with the 1GR-FE head gasket on any platform (Tacoma, 4Runner, FJ Cruiser either in CONUS or International markets...).
Have head gaskets failed on this engine? Absolutely. No one is disuputing this fact.
However, given the number of failures I was able to find on forums (I obviously don't have the Toyota reported data) compared to the number of total sales figures, there is no way to objectively analyze the available data and draw the conclusion that an endemic failure condition exists.
Presently, I attribute any V6 head gasket failure to bad luck, poor maintenance, and/or a combination of other failures leading to head gasket degradation in the hottest part of the engine (the Cyl 4-6 area).
(This is really all we can do unless the MoCo admits they knew there was an issue and knokwingly used a faulty part or design - I wouldn't hold your breath on this happening as all these motors are now out of the factory powertrain warranty, which means the MoCo has no more accountability for product reliability.)
If we are unlucky enough to experience a head gasket failure (despite proper maintenance and normal use), I'll either pay to have it fixed or trade it in for a Land Cruiser.
What I won't do is flame Toyota for a mechanical failure that happened far beyond the factory warranty.
I don't disagree with any of your logic. But I do draw a different conclusion.
I think that it's very likely that the search tools that we have available to us will only uncover a fraction of the total number of head gasket failures. Sure you and I are quick to report back here to the forum, but your average soccer mom doesn't know about the forums and wouldn't report it. What fraction of the total number of failures go unreported is going to be unknown to you and I.
I've seen enough reports of the head gasket failure reported on this forum alone to feel that there is a problem. The number of reports combined with the similarities (mostly 2004 model year in the #6 cylinder) lead me to believe that there is a real problem.
With ALL of that said, I still bought a 2004 V6. Even accounting for under-reported failures the probability that any one, well-maintained 2004 4Runner would have a head gasket failure is still very small. Higher than other model years before and since, yes. Still small though.
I also don't blame Toyota. They seem to have done a good job rectifying it in later model years and most failures are reported on vehicles that are old enough and with high enough mileage that I wouldn't at all blame Toyota.
I think that it's very likely that the search tools that we have available to us will only uncover a fraction of the total number of head gasket failures. Sure you and I are quick to report back here to the forum, but your average soccer mom doesn't know about the forums and wouldn't report it. What fraction of the total number of failures go unreported is going to be unknown to you and I.
I've seen enough reports of the head gasket failure reported on this forum alone to feel that there is a problem. The number of reports combined with the similarities (mostly 2004 model year in the #6 cylinder) lead me to believe that there is a real problem.
With ALL of that said, I still bought a 2004 V6. Even accounting for under-reported failures the probability that any one, well-maintained 2004 4Runner would have a head gasket failure is still very small. Higher than other model years before and since, yes. Still small though.
I also don't blame Toyota. They seem to have done a good job rectifying it in later model years and most failures are reported on vehicles that are old enough and with high enough mileage that I wouldn't at all blame Toyota.
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So you are basing your stats on people that talk about it on forums compared to overall sales? According to your stats, what percentage of overall owners are members on forum? And what percentage of those who experience the problem bothered to report it on an online forum? Without those numbers, how can you generate your statistical analysis?
I have a friend who had a 04 4Runner V6 as well, and he also had a head gasket issue. Both vehicles were impeccably maintained. So I guess we're both just unlucky? When my 4Runner began exhibiting symptoms, I was able to find many other people that were having the same problem with the same model years. Magically it wasn't happening with later model years. You can get all high and mighty with your stats and research, but the research is flawed because not everyone who has a problem with the engine is going to log on to this forum and discuss it. There is clearly a pattern here, and that's tough to ignore.
wnelax04sr5
New member
i think everyone is a little right here in this argument. there certainly are enough head gasket failures for 03-05 v6's for it to not be coincidental or a random failure. that said, nate is correct in saying that while there are reported failures, compared to the overall numbers of 1grfe engines in circulation, it isn't an a guaranteed issue. its also well documented that many (not all or even most) failures have occurred after the motor was overheated. I've never heard of someones head gasket failing out of the blue, theres usually symptoms associated leading up to a complete gasket failure, and are often ignored.
NuclearN8
New member
I don't know what to say to this other than, I am sorry you experienced a failed head gasket.
Maybe go start a public facebook page and ask for reports from all fb members. There's a billion people on fb (lots more than this forum)... go get all the data in one location and see what comes of it.
[I love that people assume just because a head gasket was repaired at a toyota dealer it was reported to corporate but I highly, highly doubt that's the case as I know of no automobile manufacturer that automatically syncs repair orders from all it's dealers to analyze failure trends). At most manufacturers only monitor and analyze trends for failures that occur within the warranty period (since these are usually approved by phone and ultimately paid by the company since they have to track it for accounting purposes). Most companies call this reporting process, FRACAS (Failure Reporting And Corrective Action System).]
I'm not willing to do the fb option because I'm not going to open myself up to a lawsuit from a multibillion dollar company by accusing them of something I have no concrete evidence of. Maybe you'll have better luck proving your "clear pattern". Good luck to your sir.
It is, what it is. Enjoy your new 4Runner.
JeffMerr
New member
Uh, he's not the one claiming that there is no issue. You are, based on how many threads were started on an enthusiasts forum. Great work.
Im guessing next you're going to inform us all that the dash cracking issue doesn't exist because the vehicles were out of warranty? Or that the caliper seizing issue has to do with people not taking care of their brakes?
Sporin
New member
He didn't say there was "no issue" he said that there is a statistically tiny issue. Big difference.
People get really heated over this subject and I'm not sure why. What is the point? If you have the issue, it's a problem for you. If you don't have the issue, it's not a problem for you. And whether you believe it's a big issue or a small one is completely irrelevant to anything.
All the data does indeed say this is a statistical rare issue. But the statistics are meaningless when it happens to you personally. We all get that. But I don't think people should get offended when someone points that out because, by every metric and data source we have, they aren't wrong. It does happen. It does not happen often (statistically).
I have a 2005 V6with 157k on it, only the last 12k in my hands. I know it could happen, just like I could turn on my defrost one day and have my rear window shatter. But I've moved past worrying constantly about these issues because they are statically very, very rare.
People get really heated over this subject and I'm not sure why. What is the point? If you have the issue, it's a problem for you. If you don't have the issue, it's not a problem for you. And whether you believe it's a big issue or a small one is completely irrelevant to anything.
All the data does indeed say this is a statistical rare issue. But the statistics are meaningless when it happens to you personally. We all get that. But I don't think people should get offended when someone points that out because, by every metric and data source we have, they aren't wrong. It does happen. It does not happen often (statistically).
I have a 2005 V6with 157k on it, only the last 12k in my hands. I know it could happen, just like I could turn on my defrost one day and have my rear window shatter. But I've moved past worrying constantly about these issues because they are statically very, very rare.
Martinjmpr
New member
It seems there's enough anecdotal evidence out there to say that there is a slightly higher percentage of HG failures in some of the 03-04 (or maybe 05?) models but even so I would imagine the total failure rate is negligible. For example, let's say the failure rate for the 03-05's is 1.5%, while the failure rate for the 06-09 is .75%.
That means the 03-05 had double the failure rate, but 1.5% is still pretty small, all things considered. And those are numbers I just pulled out of thin air - the actual numbers may even be smaller than that (like .3% vs .6%.)
Of course, if it's YOUR vehicle, then the fact that you are one in a thousand doesn't help much, and I get that. And obviously, forums like this are where people go to find information and often times, to find solutions to problems or to complain about issues they've had, and that leads to a kind of magnification of the problems and issues.
To put it another way, There are a million soccer moms out there who are NOT going to come onto T4R.org and post a message saying "Just wanted to let you know my '04 just went over 180k and has no issues with the HG."
The other factor is that obviously anything mechanical can break or wear out and you have to have reasonable expectations. I'm old enough to remember when vehicles had 5 digit odometers for a reason: By the time the vehicle hit 100,000 miles it needed major work.
Nowadays we don't blink at taking a 10 year old vehicle with 190,000 miles on it across Death Valley in July because we are pretty certain that it will be just fine and will not leave us stranded in the desert.
If you're complaining that a 10 - 12 year old vehicle with 150,000+ miles on it needs repair, is the vehicle the problem or is the problem that you have an unrealistic expectation?
People have put Toyota up on a pedestal so high that there is an assumption of indestructibility, and when that assumption is challenged people get pissed off. If you bought a 12 year old BMW or Land Rover you might just shrug your shoulders at the inevitable repairs and the little gremlins that kept popping up, because you wouldn't have expected anything different.
But a Toyota? Everybody knows they last forever and never break down, right?
That means the 03-05 had double the failure rate, but 1.5% is still pretty small, all things considered. And those are numbers I just pulled out of thin air - the actual numbers may even be smaller than that (like .3% vs .6%.)
Of course, if it's YOUR vehicle, then the fact that you are one in a thousand doesn't help much, and I get that. And obviously, forums like this are where people go to find information and often times, to find solutions to problems or to complain about issues they've had, and that leads to a kind of magnification of the problems and issues.
To put it another way, There are a million soccer moms out there who are NOT going to come onto T4R.org and post a message saying "Just wanted to let you know my '04 just went over 180k and has no issues with the HG."
The other factor is that obviously anything mechanical can break or wear out and you have to have reasonable expectations. I'm old enough to remember when vehicles had 5 digit odometers for a reason: By the time the vehicle hit 100,000 miles it needed major work.
Nowadays we don't blink at taking a 10 year old vehicle with 190,000 miles on it across Death Valley in July because we are pretty certain that it will be just fine and will not leave us stranded in the desert.
If you're complaining that a 10 - 12 year old vehicle with 150,000+ miles on it needs repair, is the vehicle the problem or is the problem that you have an unrealistic expectation?
People have put Toyota up on a pedestal so high that there is an assumption of indestructibility, and when that assumption is challenged people get pissed off. If you bought a 12 year old BMW or Land Rover you might just shrug your shoulders at the inevitable repairs and the little gremlins that kept popping up, because you wouldn't have expected anything different.
But a Toyota? Everybody knows they last forever and never break down, right?
I have a 2005 SR5 V6 with 150,000 and original HG are still fine ... no miss:lasercannon:.
So I'm now at 15 years old and still "ticking"!
I don't see a lot of highway driving (over 40 mph for hours) here in the Bahamas, and maybe I'll get to 300,000 miles on my HG. Heat gets to everything - and destroys.
I've been through 3 or 4 starters.. now with an AM Quality Built Starter that comes with a lifetime warrantee. Sales girl said just send it back and they'll give me a new one, so I keep the box and receipt.
I keep a spare starter purchased at Amazon for $79.14 cents in the garage just to be safe. - but now the same starter is $119 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007XUICXW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The "stealer" here in Nassau once said he could order me a new starter from Japan for $900.
I get 4 or 5 years out of OEM starter - or an AM starter - both the same.
So I'm now at 15 years old and still "ticking"!
I don't see a lot of highway driving (over 40 mph for hours) here in the Bahamas, and maybe I'll get to 300,000 miles on my HG. Heat gets to everything - and destroys.
I've been through 3 or 4 starters.. now with an AM Quality Built Starter that comes with a lifetime warrantee. Sales girl said just send it back and they'll give me a new one, so I keep the box and receipt.
I keep a spare starter purchased at Amazon for $79.14 cents in the garage just to be safe. - but now the same starter is $119 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007XUICXW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The "stealer" here in Nassau once said he could order me a new starter from Japan for $900.
I get 4 or 5 years out of OEM starter - or an AM starter - both the same.
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