Headlights won't turn on…where are my electrical people?

[Fishwerks]

No. Don't use ohms for ground. Use DC volts between battery positive and the COMMON (plug-side, obviously). If that gives you 12V, THAT's a good ground. I actually prefer a test light probe for this, so you are running some real current through there. In theory you're right. But trust me, ohms will mislead you here.

And do I understand that the lights illuminate in the first case, but not in the second? So you can actually drive and the headlights work? Or am I confused?

The high beams come on when flashing, but do not come on when pushing the stalk forward to constant high. Low beams come on with the engine running AFTER flashing the high beams, but don't come on after flashing high beams without engine running.

With engine running, stalk forward, headlight switch on, but headlights actually off I do not get a ground at COMMON using test light probe. Same without engine running.

With engine running and low beams actually on (after flashing brights so they come on) I get a good ground, obviously since they are working when testing this time.

 

[Grenvilleter]

I have my theories, but the first rule of electrical troubleshooting it to check the easy things first. Something I have a hard time with because I want to cut to the chase. But most people don't move that fast, which is fine. The fact that he's getting things on only with conditions leads me to condemn the DRL Relay(main), but it could still be something simpler. I'll follow along and throw peanuts.

I agree on the premise that the wiring is still good (proof by flashing Hi is operational) and the odd smell of probably burnt cct board lends me to look at the active components in the system.

With that said, I don't have the block and level or schematic of the system and I am not familiar with it.
I'll read and also learn something.

I did however repair a similar problem on the wife's accord where the contacts on the relays in the headlight control unit overheated and burnt the cct traces.

Wanna beer to go with those peanuts?

 

[IBallEngineer]

Wanna beer to go with those peanuts?

:cheers:

 

[TheDurk]

The high beams come on when flashing, but do not come on when pushing the stalk forward to constant high. Low beams come on with the engine running AFTER flashing the high beams, but don't come on after flashing high beams without engine running.

With engine running, stalk forward, headlight switch on, but headlights actually off I do not get a ground at COMMON using test light probe. Same without engine running.

With engine running and low beams actually on (after flashing brights so they come on) I get a good ground, obviously since they are working when testing this time.

Gotchya. I give in. 'Tis for sure the DRL relay. I could make you take a lot of readings but I'm ready to cut to the chase, as IBall said. Can you make a jumper (temporary for now) between the red wire at Terminal 6 of the DRL main relay and the green wire at Terminal 7 of the main DRL relay.

Right at the main DRL relay is where this is probably easiest done. Those two wires will only be an inch or two apart. Do you know where it is? I can look it up if you need me to. I think this will by-pass most, maybe all of the part of the DRL that is not working. It should restore headlight function.

If you want to troubleshoot first, you can verify that the red wire has no continuity to ground when the Headlights are first turned on, and then it does after the lights are flashed. Jumping these two will cut the DRL system forever out of action by closing DRL relay #4 whenever The HEAD position is selected and will let the headlights function normally, assuming your stalk switch is still good. If that green wire has continuity to ground when stalk is at HEAD, then it is still good and this should work.

IBall, please comment.

 

[Fishwerks]

Gotchya. I give in. 'Tis for sure the DRL relay. I could make you take a lot of readings but I'm ready to cut to the chase, as IBall said. Can you make a jumper (temporary for now) between the red wire at Terminal 6 of the DRL main relay and the green wire at Terminal 7 of the main DRL relay.

Right at the main DRL relay is where this is probably easiest done. Those two wires will only be an inch or two apart. Do you know where it is? I can look it up if you need me to. I think this will by-pass most, maybe all of the part of the DRL that is not working. It should restore headlight function.

If you want to troubleshoot first, you can verify that the red wire has no continuity to ground when the Headlights are first turned on, and then it does after the lights are flashed. Jumping these two will cut the DRL system forever out of action by closing DRL relay #4 whenever The HEAD position is selected and will let the headlights function normally, assuming your stalk switch is still good. If that green wire has continuity to ground when stalk is at HEAD, then it is still good and this should work.

IBall, please comment.

I will do this tomorrow night to see if it solves the problem. I can troubleshoot first to make sure, but I do not know where the main DRL relay is.

 

[nor_cal51501]

I will do this tomorrow night to see if it solves the problem. I can troubleshoot first to make sure, but I do not know where the main DRL relay is.

It is under the drivers side shin panel(don't know what it's actually called). If you look above your right foot(gas peddle) you can easily see the "ECU" under there. I believe it is even labeled DRL to make it easily identifiable.

 

[rideexileex]

Sounds to me like a blown auto headlight on-off circuit, which just happens to be inside the cluster...

I found out the hard way...

The one way to fix this is to solder a jumper on the back of the cluster, but its going to take digging into the wiring diagrams to figure it out. I did it on my old cluster, as my headlights worked, but my corner lights / dash lights did not.

 

[IBallEngineer]

make a jumper (temporary for now) between the red wire at Terminal 6 of the DRL main relay and the green wire at Terminal 7 of the main DRL relay.

I think this will by-pass most, maybe all of the part of the DRL that is not working. It should restore headlight function.

verify that the red wire has no continuity to ground when the Headlights are first turned on, and then it does after the lights are flashed. Jumping these two will cut the DRL system forever out of action by closing DRL relay #4 whenever The HEAD position is selected and will let the headlights function normally, assuming your stalk switch is still good. If that green wire has continuity to ground when stalk is at HEAD, then it is still good and this should work.

IBall, please comment.

Making that jumper kills DRL, because DRL is basically headlights grounded through a resistance, like a bad ground only measured.

The MAIN DRL relay is also responsible for grounding the Dimmer relay when you flash or switch to constant hi beams. For this reason, you must leave it connected. Of course that could be fried too, but I we can trouble shoot that too if you don't get constant hi beams.

If you do troubleshoot, be sure to check Red wire with the DRL relay connected, and the Green wire with the DRL relay disconnected. This way you are testing the components separately.

Don't be intimidated by any of this, I know it appears complicated, but when you follow Durk's instructions one item at a time it really is simple.

If you do trouble shoot and find no ground at the green wire, we will need to check the combination meter circuit before condemning the switch. But let's do this first and see if my/our hunches have merit.

**Burps**

**Throws peanut**

:couch2:

 

[TheDurk]

Sounds to me like a blown auto headlight on-off circuit, which just happens to be inside the cluster...

I found out the hard way...

The one way to fix this is to solder a jumper on the back of the cluster, but its going to take digging into the wiring diagrams to figure it out. I did it on my old cluster, as my headlights worked, but my corner lights / dash lights did not.

Thanks. I've been wondering what that unexplained loop through the cluster was. It's on the diagram, but just labeled as "E" and there is nothing written about it. If that is the case, and it well could be, my fix won't work, as I bridge downstream of that cut-off. To jump that auto-off, it would be the red-yellow at Terminal 1 and the green at Terminal 5 on plug C27. It could also be jumped at the stalk switch: same colors, between Terminal 13 and Terminal 8. rideexileex's jumper was different, and so was his fail. That's OK, it all makes sense.

A classic case where I didn't understand something so I just ignored it. Always bites you back. I have to admit IBall saw this coming. Passes the peanuts...

FR4R--how do you feel about trying that first? I think he's on to something. Bad news is you will lose the auto-off functionality.

The C27 plug on the cluster is black, rectangular, and has two rows of ten wires each. There is a pin-out drawing on Page 237 here:

 

[Fishwerks]

It is under the drivers side shin panel(don't know what it's actually called). If you look above your right foot(gas peddle) you can easily see the "ECU" under there. I believe it is even labeled DRL to make it easily identifiable.

Thanks for the info.

Sounds to me like a blown auto headlight on-off circuit, which just happens to be inside the cluster...

I found out the hard way...

The one way to fix this is to solder a jumper on the back of the cluster, but its going to take digging into the wiring diagrams to figure it out. I did it on my old cluster, as my headlights worked, but my corner lights / dash lights did not.

Thanks for the input, looks like I'll be trying this too.

Making that jumper kills DRL, because DRL is basically headlights grounded through a resistance, like a bad ground only measured.

The MAIN DRL relay is also responsible for grounding the Dimmer relay when you flash or switch to constant hi beams. For this reason, you must leave it connected. Of course that could be fried too, but I we can trouble shoot that too if you don't get constant hi beams.

If you do troubleshoot, be sure to check Red wire with the DRL relay connected, and the Green wire with the DRL relay disconnected. This way you are testing the components separately.

Don't be intimidated by any of this, I know it appears complicated, but when you follow Durk's instructions one item at a time it really is simple.

If you do trouble shoot and find no ground at the green wire, we will need to check the combination meter circuit before condemning the switch. But let's do this first and see if my/our hunches have merit.

**Burps**

**Throws peanut**

:couch2:

So check the red wire at terminal 6 with DRL relay connected and green wire at terminal 7 with DRL relay disconnected? Green wire with good ground says stalk is good, and check ground on red wire after low beams are shining.

FR4R--how do you feel about trying that first? I think he's on to something. Bad news is you will lose the auto-off functionality.

The C27 plug on the cluster is black, rectangular, and has two rows of ten wires each. There is a pin-out drawing on Page 237 here:

Trying rideexileex's suggestion first? By using a jumper on the back of the cluster OR same wires at stalk switch? I'm fine with that. I will check DRL relay terminal 6 and 7 also.

Auto-off functionality meaning the headlights won't turn off if I leave them on, shut the car off, and then lock it with fob? Not that big of a deal, I never leave them on when I shut the car off anyways.


Opinions on the best way to make a temporary jumper?

 

[TheDurk]

Thanks for the info.



Thanks for the input, looks like I'll be trying this too.



So check the red wire at terminal 6 with DRL relay connected and green wire at terminal 7 with DRL relay disconnected? Green wire with good ground says stalk is good, and check ground on red wire after low beams are shining.



Trying rideexileex's suggestion first? By using a jumper on the back of the cluster OR same wires at stalk switch? I'm fine with that. I will check DRL relay terminal 6 and 7 also.

Auto-off functionality meaning the headlights won't turn off if I leave them on, shut the car off, and then lock it with fob? Not that big of a deal, I never leave them on when I shut the car off anyways.


Opinions on the best way to make a temporary jumper?

Yeah, you'll just have to remember to turn your lights off.

On the jumper, sometimes you can take a piece of solid 14 ga. wire and stick into the back of the connector and make good contact that way. Otherwise, I'd really have to be eyes and hands on to know for sure how I would do it.

 

[IBallEngineer]

Thanks for the info.





So check the red wire at terminal 6 with DRL relay connected and green wire at terminal 7 with DRL relay disconnected? Green wire with good ground says stalk is good, and check ground on red wire after low beams are shining.



Trying rideexileex's suggestion first? By using a jumper on the back of the cluster OR same wires at stalk switch? I'm fine with that. I will check DRL relay terminal 6 and 7 also.



Opinions on the best way to make a temporary jumper?

I use paper clips, bigger ones for most circuits, smaller ones for engine control and such.

PS if you are getting a good ground at the green wire going to terminal 7, the cluster is good! That's why I said we'd have to check the cluster before condemning the switch. If you don't have ground, then we look at the cluster.

Hurry up and fix this, I'm running out of peanuts!

:couch2:

 

[rideexileex]

I think I just did the wire jumper in the connector part too... But in the end I just ended up soldering a jumper somewhere on the back of the cluster itself after tracing the wires. I kept my eye out for about a year till I found a similar mile cluster and changed it once the mileage was the same.

If you need help with the diagrams, let me know. I've got the full wiring schematics for the 2000 buried in my computer somewhere.

Hopefully this is the fix and im not sending you on a wild goose chase, but I tried tapping my headlights to have auto-off with the aux lights and the circuit definitely did not like it...

 

[Fishwerks]

Headlights quit turning on after flashing the high beams tonight, how does that affect the troubleshooting process?

Also, I'm unfamiliar with how to jumper between terminals and could use help there.

 

[TheDurk]

Headlights quit turning on after flashing the high beams tonight, how does that affect the troubleshooting process?

Also, I'm unfamiliar with how to jumper between terminals and could use help there.

Not much, I don't think. The turning on after flash was just sort of the dead chicken running around without its head. Do they still work on FLASH? That would change things if they didn't. I gather they do.

On the jumpering, there are lots of ways to skin the cat. I'd need a pic to give you an opinion on a specific challenge. Sometimes you can use your meter's lead to do it. You only need to maintain contact for a few seconds.

I keep a thingy I built for jumpering in my meter case which is just a wire with an alligator clip on either end.

 

[IBallEngineer]

Headlights quit turning on after flashing the high beams tonight, how does that affect the troubleshooting process?

Also, I'm unfamiliar with how to jumper between terminals and could use help there.

Yes Jumpering can be a real B. Especially when you can't see, have arthritic fingers and your phone is ringing.

But I think you can do it!

 

[Fishwerks]

I think I just did the wire jumper in the connector part too... But in the end I just ended up soldering a jumper somewhere on the back of the cluster itself after tracing the wires. I kept my eye out for about a year till I found a similar mile cluster and changed it once the mileage was the same.

If you need help with the diagrams, let me know. I've got the full wiring schematics for the 2000 buried in my computer somewhere.

Hopefully this is the fix and im not sending you on a wild goose chase, but I tried tapping my headlights to have auto-off with the aux lights and the circuit definitely did not like it...

How did you jumper at the connector?

Not much, I don't think. The turning on after flash was just sort of the dead chicken running around without its head. Do they still work on FLASH? That would change things if they didn't. I gather they do.

On the jumpering, there are lots of ways to skin the cat. I'd need a pic to give you an opinion on a specific challenge. Sometimes you can use your meter's lead to do it. You only need to maintain contact for a few seconds.

I keep a thingy I built for jumpering in my meter case which is just a wire with an alligator clip on either end.

The high beams still flash, yes. If I can't figure out how to jumper at the connector tonight I'll put a picture of it up.

Yes Jumpering can be a real B. Especially when you can't see, have arthritic fingers and your phone is ringing.

But I think you can do it!

:cheers:

 

[rideexileex]

On the back side of the connector where the individual wire pins enter plastic connector, sometimes i'll stick something in that. As mentioned too, you can use shorted meter leads too. Essentially, just anything conductive that will short the pins without damaging them will work just fine. Just be careful that you are shorting the correct pins tho...

 

[Fishwerks]

I tested ground on Terminal 6 with DRL relay connected, no ground unless it was on FLASH. Terminal 7 with DRL relay disconnected also had no ground unless it was on FLASH.

Jumpering at Connector C13 at the stalk between Terminal 8 and 13 did not allow LOW to come on or constant HIGH, but FLASH still worked.

 

[TheDurk]

I tested ground on Terminal 6 with DRL relay connected, no ground unless it was on FLASH. Terminal 7 with DRL relay disconnected also had no ground unless it was on FLASH.

Jumpering at Connector C13 at the stalk between Terminal 8 and 13 did not allow LOW to come on or constant HIGH, but FLASH still worked.

Hmmm. First thing we had better do next is rule out the stalk switch, then. Probably should have done that first. Can you try resistance checking Terminal 13 (red/yellow) and Terminal 16 (white/black) at the stalk with stalk on HEAD? If per chance, it shows open, then try jumpering that. I WILL make these stinkin' lights come on, I promise you.