Help me design a good lift

[masphx]

Alright, so my xreas is going out so it is "lift" time. Im really not trying to gain too much of a lift. Im more after preformance. I have my heart set on icon as that is what i run on my 3rd gen and a like it. This is my second rig and is actaully the baby hauler but also will be the long distance overland/travel wagon. I will mainly be mobbing down forest roads and mild to mid trails. So very little rock crawling in this one. So, i dont need that much of a lift. Maybe an inch or so in the rear and two in the front to level it off? I was aimming to buy icon 2.5 coils in the front and 2.0 or 2.5 icons in the rear along with their 2" spring. How muxh does this 2" spring actaully lift these rigs and what is the best tire size ( w/o issues ) that can fit under it? Trying to stick to a budget but you know... maybe a uca so i can get extended coilovers or get the rears in 2.5 w/res would be best. Each option adds at least $500 over the basic stage 1 kit. Are these truely worth it if the rig will maybe will be driven off road every other month? Thanks for the read and looking for suggestions to maybe change my course or support to keep on heading forward. Thanks!

 

[Inv4drZm]

The icon 2" rear spring should lift it 2", maybe too much for what you want. Sounds like you have the money to go icon, I would recommend the 2.5" front coilover with UCA, and 2" rear shocks. I'm not sure you will get much benefit from the 2.5" rear.

For tire size it depends on what you mean by fit "without issues" or "the best tire size." You could get 285's to fit with plastic trimming and a cut body mount, but maybe you want a lighter tire.

 

[jrm]

I think ive taken the same course

as i did with my 3rd gen build focusing on performance and versatility b/c you might be on a logging road and come up on a rock garden or creek crossing and need to have the confidence in your suspension and driving technique to get or cross through it. But you want it to ride well on road as well.

My set up is pretty OE looking. I went 5th gen SR5 wheels b/c they have less backspacing allowing the wheels to stick out roughly an inch more and 255/75/17 hankook atms. Pretty basis stuff.


I went with the 2.5 coilovers up front and the 2.0 in back. The coilovers come with 650# springs with lift set @ 2.5"s but mine were more like 3" so once i got um installed so i dialed um down to 2.5 with some compensation for the driver side lean. The rear 2.0s are paired with some 220# dobinson coils which have yielded about 1.5" or lift before settling. Im using aftermarket UCAs as well b/c with the combined 2.5" up front and 1.5"rear lift i couldnt achieve more than 1.2 degrees of caster and the truck drove badly.

 

[masphx]

Thanks for the input guys. Yes, my main concern is if my rear is lifted 2" then my front wpuld have to be lifted 3" to level out the rig. That would bring them up further then icon recommends for a better ride correct? [MENTION=130999]Inv4drZm[/MENTION], on my 3rd gen i just have the standard coilover with stock uca and im happy with it. Seems like on these 4th gens though people say it is almost needed to lift the rig. Is this true? Back to my 3rd gen i followed a guy who overlands much more then i did and he would not even install a aftermarket uca if given to him on his 3rd gen He said the extended coilover puts too much stress on the cvs for a less then 1" gain in travel. Im new to these 4th gens so not sure if that option/ suggestion carries over. Yes, probably will look into a 'lighter' tire like 255 but those 285s sure do look better on these rigs. I just dont want to loose the v8 power nor my mpgs. Also, having the money but wanting to spend it are two different things, lol. Just want to make sure i do it right the first time so i have no regrets.

@jrm, any pictures of your rig? Seems like im going in the same direction as you. I hear you on needing some amount of lift. I have been on some AZ trails that were said to be easy with some pretty crazy stuff along the way. Im to the point now that i will take a bypass when available. What front coilovers do you have, Icon? Thanks

 

[Bumbo]

For what you mentioned OP I think I would lean more towards something like a 6112/5160 combo.

The 6112 is an awesome 2.5" front coilover and for what you said you would be doing, an excellent ride. Its also a digressive valved shock like ICON stuff if that's the type of feel you like.

I like ICON stuff too, but IMO its not worth the coin unless you had plans to pony up the extra cash for remote rez with CDC adjusters.

2" OME 2895 springs got me more than 2" of lift. They matched well with the 6112 set up "one down from the highest" perch setting.

At least that way, you get into a 2.5 up front without going crazy... used the saved cash to buy something else nice.

All my friends who have kids love my ARB fridge... its the ultimate baby hauler accessory, and you have an excuse to get one too.

Here is some data, hopefully it helps you. Measured from center of the rim to fender.

Before Lift
Front 19"
Rear 21.25"

After Lift
Front 22.25"
Rear 24"

Personally I like just a little rake in the suspension, once its loaded up with gear it levels out nice, and it rides great with a load. That said, the 2895 is a bit stuff without a load on it off-road, but it rides great in the city.

Here is the truck loaded up with gear (200-300lb), same street tires as before. Note, cooler, gas, and water jug is hanging off a harbor freight carrier. Its loaded up pretty good inside too.

Here is how she sits today with a 255/75-17 BFG KM Mud MT
Just my opinion but ill take a 255 over a 285 any day of the week. Its not that thin, if anything its about damn near perfect.

 

[Inv4drZm]

Thanks for the input guys. Yes, my main concern is if my rear is lifted 2" then my front wpuld have to be lifted 3" to level out the rig. That would bring them up further then icon recommends for a better ride correct? [MENTION=130999]Inv4drZm[/MENTION], on my 3rd gen i just have the standard coilover with stock uca and im happy with it. Seems like on these 4th gens though people say it is almost needed to lift the rig. Is this true? Back to my 3rd gen i followed a guy who overlands much more then i did and he would not even install a aftermarket uca if given to him on his 3rd gen He said the extended coilover puts too much stress on the cvs for a less then 1" gain in travel. Im new to these 4th gens so not sure if that option/ suggestion carries over. Yes, probably will look into a 'lighter' tire like 255 but those 285s sure do look better on these rigs. I just dont want to loose the v8 power nor my mpgs. Also, having the money but wanting to spend it are two different things, lol. Just want to make sure i do it right the first time so i have no regrets.

@jrm, any pictures of your rig? Seems like im going in the same direction as you. I hear you on needing some amount of lift. I have been on some AZ trails that were said to be easy with some pretty crazy stuff along the way. Im to the point now that i will take a bypass when available. What front coilovers do you have, Icon? Thanks

Maybe 2" of lift rides better, but it's not bad at 3". Yes, most of the shock range will be in compression but you will still have droop (never measured how much on mine), mine's even over 3" and I can't say it rides bad.

Most people say above 2" of lift is when you will most benefit from an UCA. I just think a UCA would be a better investment than 2.5" rear shocks + resi for you, unless you're planning on skid plates, rear bumper, etc. My brother's FJ rides great with his 2" rear Icons (better than mine somehow) and they have been tortured for years but have held up.

Extended coilovers are safe to run and give you just under an inch more droop at the shock but I would recommend original Toyota CVs, people have had problems with poorly designed aftermarket CVs. If you have the vvti (05-09) V8 like mine, it laughs at my 285s, no worries there.

 

[masphx]

For what you mentioned OP I think I would lean more towards something like a 6112/5160 combo.

The 6112 is an awesome 2.5" front coilover and for what you said you would be doing, an excellent ride. Its also a digressive valved shock like ICON stuff if that's the type of feel you like.

I like ICON stuff too, but IMO its not worth the coin unless you had plans to pony up the extra cash for remote rez with CDC adjusters.

2" OME 2895 springs got me more than 2" of lift. They matched well with the 6112 set up "one down from the highest" perch setting.

At least that way, you get into a 2.5 up front without going crazy... used the saved cash to buy something else nice.

All my friends who have kids love my ARB fridge... its the ultimate baby hauler accessory, and you have an excuse to get one too.

Here is some data, hopefully it helps you. Measured from center of the rim to fender.

Before Lift
Front 19"
Rear 21.25"

After Lift
Front 22.25"
Rear 24"

Personally I like just a little rake in the suspension, once its loaded up with gear it levels out nice, and it rides great with a load. That said, the 2895 is a bit stuff without a load on it off-road, but it rides great in the city.

Here is the truck loaded up with gear (200-300lb), same street tires as before. Note, cooler, gas, and water jug is hanging off a harbor freight carrier. Its loaded up pretty good inside too.

Here is how she sits today with a 255/75-17 BFG KM Mud MT
Just my opinion but ill take a 255 over a 285 any day of the week. Its not that thin, if anything its about damn near perfect.

Thanks for all the suggestions and pictures. I will look into that set up but i have a opportunity to purchase icon stuff at 20% off so it is enticing.

Off topic but what type of arb fridge do you have and where did you put it? As i type my 4th gens battery sits dead so im researching battery options. I would normally go with what ever autozone would have but thinking maybe something bigger to handle something like a fridge. What are tou doing to power that fridge? So far i have been researching a big 31 group battery with a brain.

 

[Bumbo]

Thanks for all the suggestions and pictures. I will look into that set up but i have a opportunity to purchase icon stuff at 20% off so it is enticing.

Off topic but what type of arb fridge do you have and where did you put it? As i type my 4th gens battery sits dead so im researching battery options. I would normally go with what ever autozone would have but thinking maybe something bigger to handle something like a fridge. What are tou doing to power that fridge? So far i have been researching a big 31 group battery with a brain.

You should look into that combo... I think the 6112 is a awesome shock, but I would prefer to have a ICON 2.5 in the rear over the 5160. Your performance needs however seem to be well within parameters of the Billy Combo.

That said, I would have no problems buying a full 2.5 ICON kit if its going to spend a good deal of time on-road. I only mentioned the 6112 because it just less fuss and maintenance than a threaded coilover. The perch system has more set it and forget it built in.

Off Topic...
I went with the ARB 50 in the back. It fits with all the seats folded up as well, I dont loose passenger seating with it in the truck.

I built up my own dual battery setup with some additional features... I posted about it in a different thread, here is the link.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/2550084-post3.html

If its just the fridge its very efficient... you could easily supplement it without a 2nd battery if you can get a small 40-50 watt solar panel on the roof.

I also designed a custom controller/battery pack for my dads 5th Gen which was a portable solution because he didn't want any permanent modifications. It would sit in the back with the fridge... You might not have space with the V8 either.

Its basically a standalone battery with a controller that charges an internal pack when the engine is running without putting that cell directly in parallel. It allows me to use existing power runs in the truck safely and takes advantage of some internal features of the ARB to make that happen. It also runs the fridge directly off the alternator during charging using the AC invert in the 5th Gen. This ensures the aux fridge battery pack actually gets isolated and charged when the truck is running.

 

[oldmansimek]

I am looking to do something very similar but I have been looking at the King coilovers, I have used them before and they are very high quality and the price is the same as the icons. I also want to go with 255's I think the 285's are a little overkill and your options are limited.

I have been looking at this.
http://toyteclifts.3dcartstores.com...for-03-09-4Runner07-09-FJ-Cruiser_p_1617.html

 

[masphx]

So, I'm leaning...

-Icon 2.5 Ext Travel (58645)
-Total Chaos Upper Control Arms (96504)

-Icon 2'' Lift Coil Springs for Rear 07-Up Toyota FJ Cruiser/03-Up 4Runner (52700)
- 2x Icon 2.0'' VS Aluminum Series Smooth Body Shock for Rear(56505)

 

[Bumbo]

Sounds like it would be a pretty solid setup.

I assume you are not getting remote rez shocks with or without CDC correct to save a few bucks?

 

[masphx]

Sounds like it would be a pretty solid setup.

I assume you are not getting remote rez shocks with or without CDC correct to save a few bucks?

Yes that is true but honestly i like the idea of having 2.5 shocks on all four corners. It seems like other 4runner owners say go extended up front over the larger shock in the rear. I have heard fhat the rears get hotter before the front do though. Also, might go SPC UCA over the TC to save a few bucks there also.

 

[Bumbo]

Yes that is true but honestly i like the idea of having 2.5 shocks on all four corners. It seems like other 4runner owners say go extended up front over the larger shock in the rear. I have heard fhat the rears get hotter before the front do though. Also, might go SPC UCA over the TC to save a few bucks there also.

That makes no sense to me... Suspension is about making a system, having balance and tuning is a thing. Your suspension is only as good as its weakest or most limiting part.

The better my front suspension is, the faster I feel I can drive, which only increases the demand for performance from the rears.

Its like trying to go for a jogging with one jacked up foot... both front and rear suspension work as a system to deliver one experience...

After going 2.5 up front and keeping 2.0 in the rears I noticed there are times (off-road only) that it feels like the rear is just trying to keep up... Does not inspire confidence.

I'm sure the ICON 2.0 is better than my 2.0, but its still a 2.0. There is only so much valving, oil, and thermal capacity you can cram into a small body shock.

 

[Inv4drZm]

My advice came from my experience with my brother's FJ. His suspension is solid, again, Icon coilovers and Icon 2.0 rears with Icon 2" rear shocks. Blasting down dirt roads with washboards, they just soak it up like you are floating. Mine with the 2.5" RR all around for some reason doesn't seem quite so dialed in. Although our shocks have similar mileages, I bought mine used off a GX470 so maybe that is the difference. Mine don't have a ton of miles, but I've been itching to get them rebuild/revalved with CDC in the rear.

If you are rock crawling or going slow on trails honestly I don't think you will tell a difference between 2.0 and 2.5 in the rear, there just isn't that much weight back there unless you have passengers and a ton of skid plates and a rear bumper. If you are trying to stay Icon with the rear, the cost of the 2.0 vs the 2.5" RR is $320 vs $1000. I would only go remote reservoir in the rear if you get CDC, even more money. Radflo 2.5" smooth body are $670 if you want to mix brands.

If you are a hardcore highspeed wheeler, then you should get 2.5" all around with an UCA. I'm just saying if you are on a budget and don't need to drive fast, you will be happy with an UCA and 2.0 rear shocks.

 

[jrm]

Sure

@jrm, any pictures of your rig? Seems like im going in the same direction as you. I hear you on needing some amount of lift. I have been on some AZ trails that were said to be easy with some pretty crazy stuff along the way. Im to the point now that i will take a bypass when available. What front coilovers do you have, Icon? Thanks

Yes ICON 2.5 standard travel

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-g...u-do-your-4runner-today-1810.html#post2615407

 

[masphx]

My advice came from my experience with my brother's FJ. His suspension is solid, again, Icon coilovers and Icon 2.0 rears with Icon 2" rear shocks. Blasting down dirt roads with washboards, they just soak it up like you are floating. Mine with the 2.5" RR all around for some reason doesn't seem quite so dialed in. Although our shocks have similar mileages, I bought mine used off a GX470 so maybe that is the difference. Mine don't have a ton of miles, but I've been itching to get them rebuild/revalved with CDC in the rear.

If you are rock crawling or going slow on trails honestly I don't think you will tell a difference between 2.0 and 2.5 in the rear, there just isn't that much weight back there unless you have passengers and a ton of skid plates and a rear bumper. If you are trying to stay Icon with the rear, the cost of the 2.0 vs the 2.5" RR is $320 vs $1000. I would only go remote reservoir in the rear if you get CDC, even more money. Radflo 2.5" smooth body are $670 if you want to mix brands.

If you are a hardcore highspeed wheeler, then you should get 2.5" all around with an UCA. I'm just saying if you are on a budget and don't need to drive fast, you will be happy with an UCA and 2.0 rear shocks.

That is the thing, I enjoy going 'fast' more then crawling through the rocks so maybe the 2.5 in the rear would be better for me and a standard coil in the front. Dream is to do the Mojave rd and death valley for instance. Is the main benifit of the extended coilover w/ uca so my tire can keep in contact while rock crawling or does it help while going fast (like when you hit a little bump/jump)? In the end i might just go with the extended fronts with spc uca (unless someone talks me out of the spc's) and the 2" spring with 2.0 icons in the rear. I could always just swap out the 2.0 for the 2.5 's if they dont end up working. I would say you should rebuild those. My 3rd gen with 2.5 on all four corners are like butter over those washboards.

 

[Bumbo]

This is how I understand it... if I am wrong hopefully someone can jump in and correct me.

The extended travel gives you more droop...

How much droop you don't get is directly related to how much you lift the truck. More lift, less droop is available to you.

A wise off-road friend of mine advised that you want the minimum amount of lift to fit the tire you need... no more, no less.

Say you lifted the truck to the sky... think of driving over a large pothole on level ground; If you don't have enough droop, the truck falls/follows the tire into the pothole. If you had more droop, the tire falls in while the truck remains level.

So to answer your question the extended will absolutely help you when going fast, it will also help when crawling. Anything that helps you keep that tire on the ground is going to help.

Less Lift = More Droop
Less Lift = Better Center of Gravity
Less Lift = Better High Speed Handling

More Lift = Better Ground Clearance
More Lift = Bigger Tires + More Ground Clearance

If you think about it, an extended travel shock essentially helps re-centers the available stroke in both direction after the lift. Basically buying back some of that droop you lost when you lifted the truck.

It would have been nice to get extended shocks up front... the only downside is the additional cost of UCA to allow for the extra droop. The only reason not to do it is to save money. I don't run a UCA with my current lift, there is no need with the shocks and lift height I run.

Even with that setup wouldn't go higher than I am now... 2-2.5" ish... I would still keep my 32-33" tire... I like the size, and you can get away without re-gearing too. I would just get more droop.