Help- Startermotor does not work

[werminghausen]

I got stranded 2 times... 1997 4runner , 3.4l

Car didn't start... solenoid clicked but started motor did not move.
Jumper cable /power from another car did nothing.

I got towed and at home I checked the battery cables...
After that I turned the key and engine started....
Then the car started as normal for a few days
Then 2 days later the same thing .... got stranded.... It started finally, thank god... the at home I could not get it to start since then.

The symptoms are the same.. solenoid clicks but starter motor does not turn.
When I turn the key...after the click the lights dim.

So I thought the started motor has a problem and bought another starter motor
Installed that motor (painful as I figured that I needed to remove the trans dipstick and the power steering line down there and get the sway bar out of the way... very bad design).
With the new starter motor nothing changed... grrrr

What is that electrical gremlin?
I assume that the battery is okay... but I don't know 100%. Jumper cable does nothing. The light dim the same way when I am using the jumper cable from my other car.
Any idea?

Martin

 

[thecole1098]

It's either gonna be the relay for the starter or the neutral safety switch. Try starting it in neutral and see if it makes a difference.

 

[Kanoe]

It's either gonna be the relay for the starter or the neutral safety switch. Try starting it in neutral and see if it makes a difference.

I'm not sure about this. These 2 suggestions would prevent the soleniod from activating at all. OP states that the solenoid clicks and the lights dim. This would suggest the starter relay is functioning and that the safety switch is working as normal. Unless the OP is mistaken about the solenoid activating.

I would suspect bad battery, bad battery cables or most likely bad ends on battery cables or ground. (I would have suggested starter contacts if the Op had not just swapped the starter)

Just my thoughts..

 

[werminghausen]

Hi Kanoe,

I agree with you: The solenoid clicks, lights dim... so starter switch should work and lots of power is flowing (lights dim) but still the starter motor does not work.

Electrical connection/ cable contacts:
Where are the bad battery cables ( I know the two on the battery) are there more ...and cables on ground? Is there diagram for that car?

My body is super rusty and I'd be not surprised if a contact to frame broke off.

Martin

 

[19963.4lsr5]

Most of the engine and chassis grounds are pretty easy to see or find just by looking at and following the negative cables on the battery.

Do you have a volt meter? If you do read the terminal voltage of the battery during a start fail and see what your terminal voltage is at.

Don't put the meter leads on the battery cables put them on the center terminal first. If you read above 10.5v or so during the click then do the same reading on the cable clamps.

I had a brand new start fail on the third start already for the 4Runner.

There is also the big battery cable down at the starter that you can watch it's terminal voltage during a "click and no start condition". If your reading the same voltage at the starter that you are at the battery terminal and battery post you have a bad starter again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[theesotericone]

There is also the big battery cable down at the starter that you can watch it's terminal voltage during a "click and no start condition". If your reading the same voltage at the starter that you are at the battery terminal and battery post you have a bad starter again.

The big starter wire from the battery is always hot. Checking that will only tell you that you have power to the starter motor. With the car off you want to see at least 12.2V at the battery and the main starter wire under no load. 10.6V under load(while trying to start) is still lower then I'd like to see. 11v or above would be nice.

What the OP needs to check is the starter trigger wire. That's the small wire that clips into the solenoid on the starter. It's the wire that tells the solenoid to engage when the key is turned to the start position. If that wire reading 12V or above when the key is in the start position then it's the starter.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

His trigger wire is working or he wouldn't hear the loud klick. And yes that wire is always hot. But I told him to read the battery voltage there during klick and no start condition.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[theesotericone]

His trigger wire is working or he wouldn't hear the loud klick. And yes that wire is always hot. But I told him to read the battery voltage there during klick and no start condition.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You can assume that but I wouldn't. Without the proper volts from the trigger you can get a click but not enough juice to actually engage the solenoid.

 

[werminghausen]

The big starter wire from the battery is always hot. Checking that will only tell you that you have power to the starter motor. With the car off you want to see at least 12.2V at the battery and the main starter wire under no load. 10.6V under load(while trying to start) is still lower then I'd like to see. 11v or above would be nice.

What the OP needs to check is the starter trigger wire. That's the small wire that clips into the solenoid on the starter. It's the wire that tells the solenoid to engage when the key is turned to the start position. If that wire reading 12V or above when the key is in the start position then it's the starter.

I'll try to do some Volt measurements

1) on the terminal (directly at battery) and then
2) on the battery wires. These 2 measurements I can do myself.
3) Then with a helper do the measurement on the hot wire at the starter motor. And then
4) measure voltage at the starter trigger wire.


I'll try and find the ground connection. As I said my frame is so rusty that I saw many brackets fall off...

Martin

 

[theesotericone]

I'll try and find the ground connection. As I said my frame is so rusty that I saw many brackets fall off...

Martin

Start there. A bad ground could easily cause a no start. It is possible you got a bad starter out of the box but check the system before replacing it again.

 

[TheDurk]

What condition are your cables and terminals in? If you have clamp-on terminals, that's a red flag right there, or any non-original terminal. Is there any bubbling of the insulation on the cables? That's a sign of corrosion of the wire underneath and tells you you need new cables. Remove the ground on the fender wall at the end of the short cable from battery negative, wire brush the terminal and the contact area to bright metal, and bolt it down tight. Do this last one, period. Don't just look at it and call it good.

One of those might do it.

 

[werminghausen]

I did measure voltage at
1) battery terminals: 12.8V
2) at cables after connecting: 12.8V

I did not yet test the
3) hot wire at the starter motor and not 4) trigger wire.


But I tested the old starter...
clamped it in a big vise and connected it to the battery with starter cables...then took gator clip and connected the trigger wire.

It clicked but motor did not run...just as I experienced it
Then I had it click a lot of times and all of a sudden... maybe after having it 15 times click the motor turned..

This would explain what happened and the failure of the motor is internal to the starter..
This means I have bought a bad started because it does the same thing.

This is bad news because of the work needed to R&R this starter motor...

What is wrong inside that the old starter did not kick in but finally did? Is it an intermittent switch that turns on the motor?




Martin

ps it is pain to get to the trigger pin with the started motor in place.... I think it is almost impossible to do voltage measurement

 

[theesotericone]

ps it is pain to get to the trigger pin with the started motor in place.... I think it is almost impossible to do voltage measurement

Yeah that's a royal PIA with the starter in. lol

There's contacts and a plunger inside the solenoid. If it's still the OEM starter I'd just replace those and return the rebuild to the parts store. Search for "3rd gen starter contacts" on the site and you'll find plenty of write ups. If you can replace the starter you can rebuild the old one. Super easy. I used this kit from Amazon a few weeks ago when I did mine.

Victory Solenoid Repair Kit

There's 2 different starters in these rigs. A 1.4KW and a 1.8KW. If yours is an auto it most likely has the 1.8. If it's a stick it most likely has a 1.4. Those are guidelines so calling the dealer with your VIN will tell you for sure.

 

[werminghausen]

I used this kit from Amazon a few weeks ago when I did mine.

Victory Solenoid Repair Kit

There's 2 different starters in these rigs. A 1.4KW and a 1.8KW. If yours is an auto it most likely has the 1.8. If it's a stick it most likely has a 1.4. Those are guidelines so calling the dealer with your VIN will tell you for sure.

Thanks... I guess your starter was a 1.8KW?
I have the 1997 4 runner , 3.4l, automatic transmission. So I think I have the 1.8KW starter. I ordered the ND-36SOL and the starter motor repair kit Dorman-02349. I'll send the other starter back.

Never install an untested starter in a tight car like the 4 runner.

I hope rebuilding will solve the issue.

 

[RAD4Runner]

...

So I thought the started motor has a problem and bought another starter motor...
...With the new starter motor nothing changed... grrrr

new starter motor but old starter solenoid correct?

But I tested the old starter...
It clicked but motor did not run......
What is wrong inside that the old starter did not kick in but finally did? Is it an intermittent switch that turns on the motor?

That intermittent "switch" is the plunger and contacts inside the solenoid like theesotericone describes.

IF your connections are good, AND the solenoid clicks energetically, but the motor does one crank, the contacts are the most likely problem. They could not be closing completely or are worn out/corroded so they produce a high resistance that not enough power is getting to the starter motor.

...There's contacts and a plunger inside the solenoid. If it's still the OEM starter I'd just replace those and return the rebuild to the parts store. Search for "3rd gen starter contacts" on the site and you'll find plenty of write ups. If you can replace the starter you can rebuild the old one. Super easy. I used this kit from Amazon a few weeks ago when I did mine.

Victory Solenoid Repair Kit

 

[werminghausen]

Thanks for explaining the inner of the solenoid.

Yes, my old starter motor clicks energetically. The gear is shooting out. But the motor does not start turning.

I bought the starter motor rebuilding kits for both solenoid and motor as the old starter looks not too bad.



Martin

 

[werminghausen]

Now the story continues....

I had the rebuilt starter installed but it did not start but it clicked as did the old started motor. So I ordered the started repair kit and installed new leads and plunger in place. This is also a pita to be honest, possible option but not great.
At least I avoided to drain trans oil and remove the starter.
Bad news is that the car did not start... it clicked again but no starter motor....
I removed the starter engine again as I was puzzled: drained ATF, removed oil pan (with the sway bar disconnected and steering hydraulic line removed.... (I had no way to remove the brake line L- connector on the frame- rusted out... with this part removed and all brake lines gone + the heat shield removed you might be able to get the starter motor out to the side but I just could not.

with the starter on the bench it started great with battery connected directly...
then I tested the trigger cable at the starter positive (I used the trigger cable to start the starter motor on the bench... same great start as with the direct connection to battery... last test was the hot starter cable from the car and trigger cable: test failed.
So I knew that the hot starter cable was bad....
I figuered out the that starter cable is a split line right after the cone connctor at the batter plus terminal. That connector must have been bad and indeed.... it was always this bad connection..

I opened that connection cleaned everything ... put the parts back together and voila... it started.

It is painful to realize it was a very simple connection problem that lead to the problem... and I remember the first responses on the thread were about checking the connections.

Now I have the car back with brand new ATF and filter, new brake lines (killed the old brake line there) , rebuilt started motor (leads and plunger were worn in deed) and new sway bar bushings.... new brake fluid....new power steering fluid.

I also found new rust holes in the frame and welded here...
So at least I have a some experience now how to test and rebuild a Toyota starter.

Thanks for all the great support.

Martin

 

[RAD4Runner]

Thanks for the update and glad that you had good take-aways from the experience.

.... last test was the hot starter cable from the car and trigger cable: test failed.
So I knew that the hot starter cable was bad....
I figured out the that starter cable is a split line right after the cone connector at the batter plus terminal.

May we ask you to share pics of that "hot starter cable" AND the "cone connector"? Those are new to many of us.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

Now the story continues....



I had the rebuilt starter installed but it did not start but it clicked as did the old started motor. So I ordered the started repair kit and installed new leads and plunger in place. This is also a pita to be honest, possible option but not great.

At least I avoided to drain trans oil and remove the starter.

Bad news is that the car did not start... it clicked again but no starter motor....

I removed the starter engine again as I was puzzled: drained ATF, removed oil pan (with the sway bar disconnected and steering hydraulic line removed.... (I had no way to remove the brake line L- connector on the frame- rusted out... with this part removed and all brake lines gone + the heat shield removed you might be able to get the starter motor out to the side but I just could not.



with the starter on the bench it started great with battery connected directly...

then I tested the trigger cable at the starter positive (I used the trigger cable to start the starter motor on the bench... same great start as with the direct connection to battery... last test was the hot starter cable from the car and trigger cable: test failed.

So I knew that the hot starter cable was bad....

I figuered out the that starter cable is a split line right after the cone connctor at the batter plus terminal. That connector must have been bad and indeed.... it was always this bad connection..



I opened that connection cleaned everything ... put the parts back together and voila... it started.



It is painful to realize it was a very simple connection problem that lead to the problem... and I remember the first responses on the thread were about checking the connections.



Now I have the car back with brand new ATF and filter, new brake lines (killed the old brake line there) , rebuilt started motor (leads and plunger were worn in deed) and new sway bar bushings.... new brake fluid....new power steering fluid.



I also found new rust holes in the frame and welded here...

So at least I have a some experience now how to test and rebuild a Toyota starter.



Thanks for all the great support.



Martin

Good to hear. Another successful transplant.

I have some old reverse bulbs with long wires soldered to them I use as test lights that I can put where I need them. The starter location on the 3.4l is one of the worse. But the main battery connection is easy to get too to install the test light wire and run in the cab


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk