How do they know what a vehicle is worth?

[Kanab]

Re: Lecus takes better care of it's customers

You get what you pay for... How many V8 4Runners have the harmonic vibration which has a TSB from Lexus? The mechanics may have the same competence level in certain locations, but overall, I'd say Lexus mechanics are better quality (they can be more selective), and with each Lexus serviced you get a rental.

When I lived in Atlanta I owned an ES300, SC400 and LS400 and even when I just came in for OCI I often got a loaner, if I needed one. Yes that was nice, but when your talkin about the difference in cost between basically too identical vehicles, you should get more than a loaner car and great service when you show up with your Lexus for service JMHO

 

[tkr128]

Back on topic here...let me ask you a question...if $$ is a factor, then why did you buy a 4runner and not a Kia Sorento?? Ok, i admit, that's an extreme example.

Not extreme at all. I actually considered the Sorento EX. It looked good to me, had plenty of room, 3.5L V6 plus that 10-year warranty. What ultimately put me off was the price tag. The one I configured was about $30k, about the same price as my 4Runner and apparently they were in pretty good demand too since dealers didn't discount them as much as I thought they would. Overall, the 4Runner made more sense to me, I didn't get some of the features that came on the Sorento (side airbags, power seats), but I felt the little things on the 4Runner more than made up for them.

 

[DaveS]

The real value of a vehicle is reflected in what it is worth a few years after you buy it from new. That price is less influenced by big marketing budgets and brand hype - the vehicles that wear well, have reasonable running costs and are reliable over the longer haul are the ones that sell for good prices at this stage - and these factors are in large part down to build quality and the quality of materials used.

That second-hand value does extrapolate up into what the car can be sold for new but it takes a long time for the longer term reliability etc information to become clear to the market and be associated with a particular brand. Right now some of the Korean manufacturers are catching up with the Japanese for reliability and build quality - today they are still cheaper but in 5 years' time who knows?

 

[EDGE]

These guys were bold, I was later told by my buddies neighbor that she was invited over to have cocktails with all of them before they left for dinner and they were driving a stolen Mercedes that belonged to one of their previous victims. It also came out later that they drugged my buddy and his girl friend with roftinal (sp) date rape drug, my friend had a heart condition and the drug killed him so they raped his girl friend, dumped his Diablo in the swamp and cutup their bodies and placed them in 50 gallon barrels and also dumped them in the swamp. They never found their heads or hands and had to ID them from DNA and the girl friend had breast implants and they could ID her from a number on the implant. There were big stories on all of this in the papers in Miami, the Police stated that they had never seen criminals that were so sadistic and compared their tactics to what goes on in eastern euro countries. Yes I think you are right if I would of been along I would be dead. I was never real trusting before this happen and now I don't trust anyone, period.

Thats a real eye opener, makes you realize how fast life can be over and all the stuff money can buy don't matter.

My Dad has always told me to be concervative cause their are people who will think nothing of killing you for a watch or a peace of jewerly.

 

[EDGE]

Re: Lecus takes better care of it's customers

You get what you pay for... How many V8 4Runners have the harmonic vibration which has a TSB from Lexus? The mechanics may have the same competence level in certain locations, but overall, I'd say Lexus mechanics are better quality (they can be more selective), and with each Lexus serviced you get a rental.

Hate to break it to you but Ford, Nissan, Toyota, BMW or Lexus Techs are all the same level, years of experience of working on a certain brand is what makes you better:

I've met Ford techs who knew crazy shit, and why because they have done everything possible on a Ford, and they choose to stay with Ford over going with MB, BMW or Lexus cause they can make more on all the out of warranty work Ford has coming back, thats 10x more then a Toyota or Lexus would ever see.

Your average Lexus tech has not pulled as many engines and tranys as a Ford tech, but knowing that most of the Ford tech drive japanese

 

[EDGE]

Back on topic here...let me ask you a question...if $$ is a factor, then why did you buy a 4runner and not a Kia Sorento?? Ok, i admit, that's an extreme example.

As far as GX vs. 4runner, there are good reasons why people pay the extra $$ for the GX...like luxury things (Mark levinson, memory seats, sound insulation, wood stuff, etc.), superb customer service, and extra warranty period.

As for the X5, it has an independent suspension and unibody...both of which are most costly to develop than solid axle and body-on-frame. That's just one part. BMW is a luxury brandname and has similar benefits to the Lexus benefits.

With the X5, FX, Porsche, you're not comparing the same class of vehicle since these are cross-overs, not true rough-&-tough SUVs.

For you, you did not want all the extra pampering stuff...so you chose the 4runner. Others want it.

Their are many reason as to why someone may buy a more expensive product when they could have bought the same 1 for cheaper, you drive a G500 so I can see your reason.

Now in life we as Americans have companies who will forever fight for our money, competiton is good for the consumer, look at clothing lines, t-shirts for 20 bucks all the way up to jackets for a 1000 or more, why does the Men's Warehouse sell Jackets for 1200 then mark them down to 150 when they have 5 left.

Why are all these designers now putting their clothes in stores like Target, or K-Mart, cause when it comes down to it, the rich will make you millions but middle america will make you way more:

You may have a G500 with a sticker price of what 80k but MB sells more lower priced cars and the pre-owned cars outsell the new cars, so it is about the badge but also the price cause the dealers here in NY/NJ sell 10 new MB a week but sell 100 pre-owned cars in that same time, so now you got people who only look for pre-owned cars cause the warranties and price are better on them then new cars and their still "like-new"

So their you have it, it comes back to overall value:

As far as the G-Class goes, it may be 1 hell of an offroader but why does the MB dealer get them with street racing Yokohama AVS tires, guess it provides a more comfortable ride for all the suits who buy them

 

[Thai]

As far as the G-Class goes, it may be 1 hell of an offroader but why does the MB dealer get them with street racing Yokohama AVS tires, guess it provides a more comfortable ride for all the suits who buy them

Actually, only the G55 AMG model comes with AVS tires, which somewhat goes with the "image." The regular G500 comes with fairly aggressive Geolander H/T, specially made for G-wagen. You have to special order these tires...it is not on Yokohama's website either. It wears quickly though.

 

[Thai]

Edge,

Well, remember GX and 4runner are not twins. The GX has many features over the 4runner. Same for Land Cruiser and LX470. They are not the "same" vehicle...only the backbone and powertrain are shared. The options & warranty alone can back up some of the price difference.

Middle class is the core to most things...but, don't forget all the fancy brands out there (Armani, Rolex for example) that rely solely on the rich...and they are doing quite well. So, there are examples on both side of the arguments. But, in general, i agree with you.

As for the G500 vs. C230, the G500 may carry a bigger profit margin, but sells less than C230...so, the overall difference is not that much. But, G500 may not...that's why MB is dumping the civilian model after this year and going with a modified ML platform as the next G.

 

[Mark86]

Edge,

Well, remember GX and 4runner are not twins. The GX has many features over the 4runner. Same for Land Cruiser and LX470. Same for the 4runner and Sorento. They are not the "same" vehicle...only the backbone and powertrain are shared. The options & warranty alone can back up some of the price difference.

Middle class is the core to most things...but, don't forget all the fancy brands out there (Armani, Rolex for example) that rely solely on the rich...and they are doing quite well. So, there are examples on both side of the arguments. But, in general, i agree with you.

As for the G500 vs. C230, the G500 may carry a bigger profit margin, but sells less than C230...so, the overall difference is not that much. But, G500 may not...that's why MB is dumping the civilian model after this year and going with a modified ML platform as the next G.

I didn't know Mercedes was doing away with the civilian G-class after this year. I saw a few pictures of that new ML and I think it is ugly. It definitely does not have the rugged look that the previous ML had. Now it looks like an X5 from the rear. I guess in a business sense they are not wrong because you see more and more people buying these luxury crossover SUV's. By the way, this new ML is getting a 7 speed transmission and there will four models, ML350, ML450, ML55, ML63

 

[jlb]

......., there is not that much difference in luxury or warranty between a decked out 4runner and a GX470, but the GX470 costs 40% more. It's all about the prestige factor.

I have to disagree here......

Toyota 3Y/36K vs. Lexus 4Y/48K

40% more??

Comparing a fully loaded 4wd Limited (2004) ~$45K (sticker) to a Fully Loaded GX470 ~$53K (sticker) (2004)


Still the fully loaded Limited 4wd T4R is missing:
-On-star/Lexus Link
-Memory seats
-rear air conditioning
-All windows auto
-Upgraded stereo
-Rain Sensing wipers
-Wood trim
-RSES -> Nav Integration
-Headroom
-Adjustable dampening Suspension
-Side view mirrors tilt down in reverse.
-3rd row seats.
-KDSS.
- A real lever for the transfer case.
- That gad awful swinging rear door

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as levels of service (from my experience in having owned both brands in the past)

- Free loaner car

- When you ask Lexus to fix something they fix it, period, it's not cheap but they try to resolve the problem.

Normally the Toyota dealership does a good job, but at times they have been a PITA.

examples:
1) The starter contacts were worn on my TLC, and it was becomming difficult to start.
a) I take the TLC in for service.
b) I ask Toyota to rebuild or replace the starter
c) As long as it is there change the oil and filter.

I receive a call that it's ready. They state that they won't do anything on the starter because it didn't act up while it was there. I walk out to the car and it doesn't want to start, walk back in to the parts counter to buy the rebuild kit and fix it myself. no more problems.

2) I take the TLC into the dealer for a new windshield, (Toyota contracts this out to a local glass shop). The next time it rains I notice water dripping onto my feet. I take it back and they say that it is because I have a non-Toyata windshield and it is not their problem. When I point out that I had brought it to them to replace the windshield they begrudgingly took care of it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was able to justify the difference up to the point where the Lexus dealer stated "the price on the sticker is what you pay", while Toyota stated "we'll knock 4K+ off". It was close, but I chose the T4R. YMMV

I'm sure others here were comparing the SR5 to the SR5 SE or the SR5 SE to the Limited and couldn't justify the cost difference. To each his own.....

 

[Mark86]

At the dealer where I got my 4Runner at, they give out free courtesy loaners. The choices are either a Corolla, Sienna, Scion Xb, or Camry. Also, you could purchase an extended warranty for the 4Runner if wanted to and I don't think it is that expensive. Many of the buttons and features on the 4Runner are the same as the GX470. When test driving both a GX470 and 4Runner Limited, the major differences I noted were the sound deadening insulation and wood trim dashboard (eye catching). Other than that, both trucks felt the same. Another thing that seperates the two is all GX470's are shipped with 3rd row seating. You cannot get a 4Runner Limted with third row seats. I am not sure if this is only in the NY/NJ region.

Oh, and could you get a rear window that rolls down on a GX470?? I don't think so!!!!!

 

[jlb]

. Also, you could purchase an extended warranty for the 4Runner if wanted to and I don't think it is that expensive.


Yep, but you can also do the same for the Lexus it just adds $

Many of the buttons and features on the 4Runner are the same as the GX470. When test driving both a GX470 and 4Runner Limited, the major differences I noted were the sound deadening insulation and wood trim dashboard (eye catching).
Other than that, both trucks felt the same. Another thing that seperates the two is all GX470's are shipped with 3rd row seating. You cannot get a 4Runner Limted with third row seats. I am not sure if this is only in the NY/NJ region.

Yes, I realize that there are many similarities. (We have a GX470 in the family and I drive it at least once a week.) From what I understand prior to 2005 you couldn't get the rear seats w/ Nav on the T4R.

Oh, and could you get a rear window that rolls down on a GX470?? I don't think so!!!!!

I didn't say there weren't things I like better in the T4R, the rear window & door being a good example. I was just trying to point out that there are some differences you get for your $8000 and to some people it is worth it. It doesn't make them any smarter/dumber, it just means that they had different criteria or contraints.

 

[Mark86]

Yes, I realize that there are many similarities. (We have a GX470 in the family and I drive it at least once a week.) From what I understand prior to 2005 you couldn't get the rear seats w/ Nav on the T4R.



I didn't say there weren't things I like better in the T4R, the rear window & door being a good example. I was just trying to point out that there are some differences you get for your $8000 and to some people it is worth it. It doesn't make them any smarter/dumber, it just means that they had different criteria or contraints.

I am not saying people are smart or dumb either for going with the GX. Whether you go with the GX470 or 4Runner, you are making a smart decision. You are getting a quality vehicle either way, just one has more luxurious amenities than the other.

 

[Kanab]

Actually, only the G55 AMG model comes with AVS tires, which somewhat goes with the "image." The regular G500 comes with fairly aggressive Geolander H/T, specially made for G-wagen. You have to special order these tires...it is not on Yokohama's website either. It wears quickly though.

Thai, now that you have owned your G500 for a while can you give us a report on how you like it? On road, off road, maintance costs, any problems? Would you buy it again if you had to do it over?

 

[Thai]

Thai, now that you have owned your G500 for a while can you give us a report on how you like it? On road, off road, maintance costs, any problems? Would you buy it again if you had to do it over?

I love it. It is a very unique vehicle. For me, it attracts a little too much attention.

On road, it is pretty good, but not as comfortable as my brother's LX470. However, it is slightly more comfortable than my old 3rd gen 4runner (probably due to longer wheelbase, softer suspension, and more weight). Wind noise is pretty well controlled despite box shape. Harman/kardon stereo is surprisingly good for such a boxy interior.

Off-road, it has exceeded all of my expectations. It is literally unstoppable...my stock tires are the only limitations at this time. With the lockers, they make the G very sure-footed...less slipping than my old 4runner, which helps because my stock tires don't have the grip of my old 4runner's BFG AT KO tires.

No mechanical failure. In fact, i don't have any major issues with it at all...knock on wood! The only minor issues are a small rattle on one of the wood panels and squeeky door. The squeeky door can only be fixed temporarily (with WD40). I have grown to like the COMMAND system...but i still prefer Toyota's excellent NAVI system.

Routine maintenance is free so far (every 12K miles)...for 4 years or 50K miles ('05 MBs do not have this anymore). I do change my oil in between the free changes (about every 6K miles).

Gas mileage remains horrible. I have about 13,800 miles. Gas mileage in city is about 12-13 mpg. Highway is about 14-15 mpg. Damn box shape!!

I would buy it again for sure. I love it...i am keeping this thing for a long time. I am also kinda happy that MB will not be selling the civilian model anymore after '05. However, since i am moving far away from my job in the near future, i will likely have to buy an econobox (Civic or Corrolla) because the gas bill would be too much for the G. In addition, i do not want to rack up too many miles too fast. Oh yeah, my car insurance is pretty high on the G...expected, but still hurts my rapidly thinning wallet!

 

[Kanab]

I love it. It is a very unique vehicle. For me, it attracts a little too much attention.

On road, it is pretty good, but not as comfortable as my brother's LX470. However, it is slightly more comfortable than my old 3rd gen 4runner (probably due to longer wheelbase, softer suspension, and more weight). Wind noise is pretty well controlled despite box shape. Harman/kardon stereo is surprisingly good for such a boxy interior.

Off-road, it has exceeded all of my expectations. It is literally unstoppable...my stock tires are the only limitations at this time. With the lockers, they make the G very sure-footed...less slipping than my old 4runner, which helps because my stock tires don't have the grip of my old 4runner's BFG AT KO tires.

No mechanical failure. In fact, i don't have any major issues with it at all...knock on wood! The only minor issues are a small rattle on one of the wood panels and squeeky door. The squeeky door can only be fixed temporarily (with WD40). I have grown to like the COMMAND system...but i still prefer Toyota's excellent NAVI system.

Routine maintenance is free so far (every 12K miles)...for 4 years or 50K miles ('05 MBs do not have this anymore). I do change my oil in between the free changes (about every 6K miles).

Gas mileage remains horrible. I have about 13,800 miles. Gas mileage in city is about 12-13 mpg. Highway is about 14-15 mpg. Damn box shape!!

I would buy it again for sure. I love it...i am keeping this thing for a long time. I am also kinda happy that MB will not be selling the civilian model anymore after '05. However, since i am moving far away from my job in the near future, i will likely have to buy an econobox (Civic or Corrolla) because the gas bill would be too much for the G. In addition, i do not want to rack up too many miles too fast. Oh yeah, my car insurance is pretty high on the G...expected, but still hurts my rapidly thinning wallet!

Sounds like a good report. Get one of those VW diesels for your DD, they get big MPG and diesels are kinda neat.

 

[EDGE]

Routine maintenance is free so far (every 12K miles)...for 4 years or 50K miles ('05 MBs do not have this anymore). I do change my oil in between the free changes (about every 6K miles).

No more free maintenance, do you know why, is that all cars or just the highly expensive stuff

 

[Thai]

Sounds like a good report. Get one of those VW diesels for your DD, they get big MPG and diesels are kinda neat.

I think that i trust Kia before VW...those Touaregs are falling apart as we speak! You should see their forum...every other post is a problem post! There's no way that i will ever buy anything from VW, no matter what people say...just read their forum and you will know why!

To tell you the truth, Mercedes is not far behind VW in quality problems.

 

[Thai]

No more free maintenance, do you know why, is that all cars or just the highly expensive stuff

As of '05 models, there is no free maintenance program. MB advises you to change oil every 13K miles (at owner's cost). They do give free checkups at 1000 and 3000 miles (bullshit checkups), and free tire rotation before 6000 miles. And guess what?! Their MSRPs on their cars are STILL going up! Supposedly, they did away with the free maintenance to save cost...and supposedly pass the savings to the customer. Yeah right! Even the G-wagen's prices are going up...and no one is buying it! Ridiculous.

 

[EDGE]

The people running MB can't see their gonna loose sales:arrow: if they are tryin to save and are cutting back on some oil then they really must be hurtin:bash: