http://www.annapolisroyal.com/idling.php
This link scares me because there are ZERO sources listed for their information...
This link scares me because there are ZERO sources listed for their information...
How long to wait after starting engine in cold weather?
- Thread starter keylay31
- Start date
Boston_Runner
New member
What does the owner's manual say? 2 minutes?
Thai
Elite Member
tomhaney1 said:
But then again, there are ZERO sources listed from everyone who has chimed into this thread. Where did all these people get their information??
And let's face it...there is a reason why excessive idling is bad for the environment, right?? It is. I would not be all paranoid and think that anything that mentions saving the environment is "tree-hugging." Environment damages and excessive idling will always go hand-in-hand because it's fact...and will always be mentioned together. So, i would not just discount the links simply because they mentioned "environment."
In this link: http://www.onedayvancouver.ca/take_action.php?itemId=40
Vancouver has passed a law prohibiting excessive idling...it's a damn law!
More links: http://www.hcdoes.org/airquality/Anti-Idling/IdleKnow.htm
http://cms.burlington.ca/Page271.aspx#
http://pirg.uwaterloo.ca/cacaq/irec/irec-facts.html
http://www.lethbridge.ca/home/City+...nagement/Programs+and+Initiatives/ENVidle.htm
As you can see, most of the links are from CITY INITIATIVES, not from some tree hugger's website.
Thai said:But then again, there are ZERO sources listed from everyone who has chimed into this thread. Where did all these people get their information??
And let's face it...there is a reason why excessive idling is bad for the environment, right?? It is. I would not be all paranoid and think that anything that mentions saving the environment is "tree-hugging." Environment damages and excessive idling will always go hand-in-hand because it's fact...and will always be mentioned together. So, i would not just discount the links simply because they mentioned "environment."
In this link: http://www.onedayvancouver.ca/take_action.php?itemId=40
Vancouver has passed a law prohibiting excessive idling...it's a damn law!
More links: http://www.hcdoes.org/airquality/Anti-Idling/IdleKnow.htm
http://cms.burlington.ca/Page271.aspx#
http://pirg.uwaterloo.ca/cacaq/irec/irec-facts.html
http://www.lethbridge.ca/home/City+...nagement/Programs+and+Initiatives/ENVidle.htm
As you can see, most of the links are from CITY INITIATIVES, not from some tree hugger's website.
There are copious laws enacted based on poor science. Like I previously stated, I don't doubt the science, completely, it just seems there is no evidence of these issues. If there was an exhaust gas particulate test with results that might convince me. But just saying that it releases more particulates is not convincing in the least. And asserting that it does not enact excessive wear to start and restart your vehicle is just rediculous- the more you use a mechanical device the faster it wears out, whether it is an electric drill or a starter motor. There is also an old [US] government estimate that says it costs the owner 2 dollars every time you start your engine, but that is basically hearsay because I don't have the actual study to back that up. But I will admit that
. Letting your engine warm up for 3 minutes or so will be of no detriment to the engine. That is quite possibly one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. How, for one, is the oil going to reach all parts of the engine and operate smoothly after 30 seconds? I don't know...I need more than a Canadian bylaw to support those assertions. Just my cynicism I guess.Thai said:Oh yeah, BMW and Mercedes do NOT recommend idling...and these companies are far from tree-huggers!
We always let our 540is warm up for a couple of minutes (3-5) before driving it and it has 150,000 miles on it and drives the same as it did the 1st day it was purchased...No sludge, no excess emissions, no coolant problems, just a smoother drive in the morning.
00void
New member
i give myself 10-20seconds and try and drive no greater than 40mph until the temp guage bumps from C.
now, my 3rd Gen T4R and my father's 1st Gen Avalon would stay in 3rd gear until the engine warmed to whatever temp the computer felt at home with. if i remember correctly, i believe it stated in the Avalon manual NOT to warm the car as it just produces more emissions, etc etc.
i've had the same thing (truck stays in 4th) happen with my 4th Gen T4R, but only a few times and in REALLY cold weather... anyone else experience this also?
and yes, Mercedes, BMWs and VWs state in the manual's not to warm the vehicle either. but hey, whatever floats your boat.
now, my 3rd Gen T4R and my father's 1st Gen Avalon would stay in 3rd gear until the engine warmed to whatever temp the computer felt at home with. if i remember correctly, i believe it stated in the Avalon manual NOT to warm the car as it just produces more emissions, etc etc.
i've had the same thing (truck stays in 4th) happen with my 4th Gen T4R, but only a few times and in REALLY cold weather... anyone else experience this also?
and yes, Mercedes, BMWs and VWs state in the manual's not to warm the vehicle either. but hey, whatever floats your boat.
Thai
Elite Member
00void said:
Tomhaney, i think that above statement says it best. If you don't believe in it...and want to go with the old wife's tale, then i can't change your mind. Like you, i believed in the wife's tale until i read the owner's manual on my old BMW and current Mercedes. I know that those german companies are not out there to make themselves look bad...and it gives them no benefit to give such "stupidest" advice.
Do YOU have any evidence to support warming up a fuel-injection engine for 3 minutes to be any better????
Thai
Elite Member
Here is an interesting quote from those darn Canadians:
"Excessive idling can be a problem for a few reasons:
- First, since an idling engine is not operating at its peak temperature, fuel combustion is incomplete.
- As a result, fuel residues can condense on cylinder walls, contaminate oil and damage engine components. For example, these residues tend to deposit on spark plugs. With more engine idling there is a drop in the average plug temperature and accelerated plug fouling. This can increase fuel consumption by 4 to 5 percent.
- Excessive idling can cause water to condense in the vehicle's exhaust. This can lead to corrosion and reduce the life of the exhaust system.
There's another good reason for motorists to drive away soon after starting a vehicle. The engine is only one component of a vehicle. Other parts, such as the wheel bearings, steering, suspension, transmission and tires, also need to be warmed up, and the only way to do that is to get the vehicle moving.
Another common misconception is that it's better to let an engine idle than to continually shut off and restart the vehicle. Research has shown that frequent restarting has little impact on engine components such as the battery and starter motor. Component wear caused by restarting is estimated to add $10 per year to the cost of driving, money that can be recovered several times over in fuel savings from reduced idling."
Also, if you guys are concerned about warming your engine, then i would highly recommend a BLOCK HEATER, esp. if you live in the cold climates.
"Excessive idling can be a problem for a few reasons:
- First, since an idling engine is not operating at its peak temperature, fuel combustion is incomplete.
- As a result, fuel residues can condense on cylinder walls, contaminate oil and damage engine components. For example, these residues tend to deposit on spark plugs. With more engine idling there is a drop in the average plug temperature and accelerated plug fouling. This can increase fuel consumption by 4 to 5 percent.
- Excessive idling can cause water to condense in the vehicle's exhaust. This can lead to corrosion and reduce the life of the exhaust system.
There's another good reason for motorists to drive away soon after starting a vehicle. The engine is only one component of a vehicle. Other parts, such as the wheel bearings, steering, suspension, transmission and tires, also need to be warmed up, and the only way to do that is to get the vehicle moving.
Another common misconception is that it's better to let an engine idle than to continually shut off and restart the vehicle. Research has shown that frequent restarting has little impact on engine components such as the battery and starter motor. Component wear caused by restarting is estimated to add $10 per year to the cost of driving, money that can be recovered several times over in fuel savings from reduced idling."
Also, if you guys are concerned about warming your engine, then i would highly recommend a BLOCK HEATER, esp. if you live in the cold climates.
Thai said:
Here is a link to a Handa/Acura forum in which the basically debate the same thing...problems associated with operating a cold engine. Their consensus, let the damn thing warm up to normal operating temperature before driving it. http://www.honda-acura.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3322558
Further, the BMW M3 actually has a "cold start rev limiter", which will indicate when it is safe to fully operate the vehicle. Sure, it only takes about 90 seconds in cold weather for it to turn off but it is there nonetheless. I also don't think you will find any Porsche owners who don't properly warm up their engines before driving them. These are fuel-injected engines.
Thai
Elite Member
tomhaney1 said:
Exactly...BMW tells you to drive right away and not to rev the engine hard during the first 10 minutes or so or until the rev limiter goes to full strength. This has little to do with idling time. This is what i do with my Corolla too! As mentioned above, Toyotas warm up their drivetrain by not shifting too early (aka letting revs climb a bit).
Thai
Elite Member
You know...i should re-read what i post sometimes...here is a good official test that i posted back on page 4:
"Temperature tests on engine coolant conducted by the Ontario Ministry of Transportation investigated whether idling was an effective way to warm up engines in cold weather. The tests measured the amount of time needed to raise the coolant temperature from -10oC to its normal operating temperature of 80oC. By driving the vehicle just after start-up (when the oil pressure is up), the coolant temperature rose to 80oC in just 12 minutes. By contrast, it took 30 minutes to raise the coolant temperature to that level while idling the vehicle. Driving away after start-up also gets the drive train working, warms up the differential oil and transmission oil, and warms up the tires so they can roll better. Idling can't do any of this, no matter how long you wait."
"Temperature tests on engine coolant conducted by the Ontario Ministry of Transportation investigated whether idling was an effective way to warm up engines in cold weather. The tests measured the amount of time needed to raise the coolant temperature from -10oC to its normal operating temperature of 80oC. By driving the vehicle just after start-up (when the oil pressure is up), the coolant temperature rose to 80oC in just 12 minutes. By contrast, it took 30 minutes to raise the coolant temperature to that level while idling the vehicle. Driving away after start-up also gets the drive train working, warms up the differential oil and transmission oil, and warms up the tires so they can roll better. Idling can't do any of this, no matter how long you wait."
nauticalniremor
New member
no help here, i live in florida. lol
keylay31 said:
Funny... I see no solid proof that it is detrimental to allow your vehicle to idle for a short period of time. That is my point. Noone has disproven the point, in fact if a vehicle won't allow you to shift until it reaches a certain temperature or to be driven past certain rpm's doesn't that say something about how the engine should be operated- like when properly warmed up. If it was ok to drive the engine regularly while cold why would such measures have to be employed? Someone has to play the devil's advocate with these things otherwise you end up getting tickets because you let your vehicle idle for more than three minutes
. I understand and appreciate Thai's point(s) and his knowledge but the logic and science eludes me . :bash:keylay31 said:
I am not debating whether it will warm the engine faster when you drive it, that is a given. All I am saying is 1) the warmer an engine is before you drive it the better, and 2) It will not injure your engine to let it idle after startup for a, let me re-emphasize this, SHORT, period of time, ie. 1-3 minutes before you drive it. I am in full agreement with the assertion you shouldn't let your vehicle sit idling for 15 minutes or whatever. I'm not taking this thing personally. I really could give a crap whether anyone lets their vehicle idle for 1 second or one hour. I just don't necessarily trust the science behind the assertion that letting your vehicle idle for SHORT periods of time is detrimental to the engine. And I just can't believe they are going to ticket people for letting their engine idle for 3 minutes- just seems rediculous. Like Kmvreter said, "Can anyone out there chime in with an SAE source?"
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