Bigshankhank
New member
Had a local transmission shop take care of this for me, but not a fluid exchange. Rather a normal fluid and filter change, 250k on the original.
How many guys are still on original transmission fluid? Come on in!
- Thread starter luke87gt
- Start date
Had a local transmission shop take care of this for me, but not a fluid exchange. Rather a normal fluid and filter change, 250k on the original.
firebirdguy
Member
why would you go almost 300k miles & not change the trans fluid? makes no sense at all & is a huge gamble. if you used to work at toyota why dont you believe what toyota engineers specify for normal maintnance? did you read the owners manual that tells you to change it at 60k for heavy use or 100k regardless of use? & did it ever occur that maybe your shudder issue was because you have 300k miles on the fluid??? baffles me when people think they know better than the engineers who designed the vehicle. do you change your oil at 50-100k miles too?
& maybe a used trans is $300-500 but after labor to install it you are easily at $1000+ or if you do it yourself you just spent a whole day replacing it... & then by your logic you should probably just swap in your old trans fluid & keep running to 400k! :noidea:
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HIMILESV8SPORT
Member
Well I bought it with 268,000. 1 owner, all service records included. Even came with 2nd key and remote with keycode tag that were never used. Again, I worked at a good sized Toyota/Lexus dealer for over a decade. Transmission failures we saw came with a "I just had the fluid flushed recently". If you change it every 60,000 miles then you're probably ok. If it wasn't changed in the 268,000 miles before you bought it, you let it go. Several engineers at a Toyota pilot plant agreed with me on that by the way.
Funny thing though, I also own a 97 WS6 Formula. Got it used. Flushed the trans and guess what I had to replace less than 2,000 miles later? I'm also running T4 fluid in replacement LKQ trans I put in it. I'm sure that's against what the engineers would advise as well.
Thanks for your input though. I've read more owners manuals than I care to remember and still have to read them for customers that won't. Oh, and my shudder issue was due to the converter, not the trans. Of course using that was only the advice of 3 Toyota master techs, but what do they know?
Funny thing though, I also own a 97 WS6 Formula. Got it used. Flushed the trans and guess what I had to replace less than 2,000 miles later? I'm also running T4 fluid in replacement LKQ trans I put in it. I'm sure that's against what the engineers would advise as well.
Thanks for your input though. I've read more owners manuals than I care to remember and still have to read them for customers that won't. Oh, and my shudder issue was due to the converter, not the trans. Of course using that was only the advice of 3 Toyota master techs, but what do they know?
firebirdguy
Member
i think you may be confusing a flush vs an exchange... some trans shops use a power flush machine & on older high mile transmissions that "can" be an issue. but doing an exchange of the fluid by pan drain & fills or using the trans pump to exchange ~2qts at a time will NOT damage or harm the trans. there are countless threads on here & probably hundreds of thousands of toyota & other brand owners that have done the exchange with 100-200k miles & i have yet to hear one single report of it causing any damage.
no offense intended to you for your choice of maintenance but if you worked at a dealership for any amount of time doing any kind of actual work on the cars as opposed to sales or a lot attendant... you should be aware that fluid flushes are not exchanges & drains & fills or exchanges will not hurt a trans in any way shape or form.
& im aware the shudder issues are converter related... but running with fluid to 200k+ miles with unknown history of use will likely cause or contribute to converter issues, thats why people report shudder issues going away or greatly improving after an exchange. trans fluids purpose is to lubricate as well as cool & when its old & burnt & depleted, it simply cant do its job. thats is exactly why the shudder fix additive helps/improves shudder issues, its got concentrated anti shudder & lubrication additives. if shudder fix helped your shudder issue i would be willing to bet a fluid exchange would have done the same thing or more.
& just an FYI for ya on the firebird: the 4l60 trans in 4th gen f-bodies are notorious for going bad, probably one of the weakest trans GM ever used! they cant even handle the stock HP of the LT1 & LS1 engines. & if you got it used, i guarantee the car was abused like 99% of all firebirds are. but based on your logic you shouldn't have ever "flushed" the fluid in the first place. im guessing there was already slipping or other issues with it & you tried a flush to fix it. but regardless of why you did the flush, you cant connect the 4l60 failure to a fluid change. just sayin.
no offense intended to you for your choice of maintenance but if you worked at a dealership for any amount of time doing any kind of actual work on the cars as opposed to sales or a lot attendant... you should be aware that fluid flushes are not exchanges & drains & fills or exchanges will not hurt a trans in any way shape or form.
& im aware the shudder issues are converter related... but running with fluid to 200k+ miles with unknown history of use will likely cause or contribute to converter issues, thats why people report shudder issues going away or greatly improving after an exchange. trans fluids purpose is to lubricate as well as cool & when its old & burnt & depleted, it simply cant do its job. thats is exactly why the shudder fix additive helps/improves shudder issues, its got concentrated anti shudder & lubrication additives. if shudder fix helped your shudder issue i would be willing to bet a fluid exchange would have done the same thing or more.
& just an FYI for ya on the firebird: the 4l60 trans in 4th gen f-bodies are notorious for going bad, probably one of the weakest trans GM ever used! they cant even handle the stock HP of the LT1 & LS1 engines. & if you got it used, i guarantee the car was abused like 99% of all firebirds are. but based on your logic you shouldn't have ever "flushed" the fluid in the first place. im guessing there was already slipping or other issues with it & you tried a flush to fix it. but regardless of why you did the flush, you cant connect the 4l60 failure to a fluid change. just sayin.
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firebirdguy
Member
good for you... care to elaborate as to why you would do that when toyota clearly says otherwise? hmmmm.
LUKE
I took my 4runner (SR5 150,000 miles) to the dealer and they did a drain and fill (5 quarts) at 103,000 miles.
I've read of others with 4runers that never changed (D/F) their tranny fluid with as many as 270,000 miles.
I use only Toyota WS for my 2005 4runner.
D/F (4 quarts) every 40,000 miles should be good for yours or any 4runner.
The problem is the Toyota method they ask you to follow is absurd.
Can't you Drain and measure what you take out and replace that exact same amount - without warming up the 4 runner?
I took my 4runner (SR5 150,000 miles) to the dealer and they did a drain and fill (5 quarts) at 103,000 miles.
I've read of others with 4runers that never changed (D/F) their tranny fluid with as many as 270,000 miles.
I use only Toyota WS for my 2005 4runner.
D/F (4 quarts) every 40,000 miles should be good for yours or any 4runner.
The problem is the Toyota method they ask you to follow is absurd.
Can't you Drain and measure what you take out and replace that exact same amount - without warming up the 4 runner?
Drift Monkey
New member
Most of us have done that (fluid exchange) in the driveway. I did 12 quarts.
firebirdguy
Member
why is the toyota procedure to check fluid level "absurd?"
its very basic & straight forward, you run it to the proper temp range & pull one bolt on the pan to let drain to a trickle, takes all of 3 minutes....
yes you can refill the same amount you pulled out if the new fluid is the same temp as the old, but if you bought the 4runner used how do you know its at the right level to begin with?
HIMILESV8SPORT
Member
Sorry, said flushed when it was just a drain and fill on the 4L60E, trust me, I know how weak they are. Before that had a 2.2 s10 xtreme 4l60e fail as well. Swapped out both. So again, when and if MINE ever fails i'll just swap it out for a lower mileage one. I bought it for just under $3,000, have over $9,000 invested now after 3 years. New Toyota LCA's and UCA's last week with all OEM hardware. What's another $5-600? I do understand Toyota put in the owners manual a recommendation on trans maintenance for a trans less than a year old and fluid not much older . Ever think those recommendations are more about $ than part and fluid lifespan? They also call WS a lifetime fluid right? You ever know about the switch from 5w30/5w20 to 0w20 oil and how Toyota put oil caps on that said 5w20 when they recommended 0w20? How many Toyota engineers do you personally know? I only know 4-5, one moved to headquarters in Plano, so don't talk with him much any longer. This thread is asking how many still on original fluid right??? I've worked as a tech, but for over a decade have worked in parts. Several transmission re-builders will disagree with your views of flushes and fills not doing any damage, but what do they know right?? You must be the absolute source of knowledge and nobody else can tell you differently even if they are probably more experienced in this field. It's cool, say my fluid is my source of converter shudder if it makes you feel better, but remember I ordered at least a dozen converters for 4runners or GX's. Several were still under PT warranty. Again, I'm just going off what all I've seen firsthand at a busy Toyota/Lexus dealer that also caters to many Toyota plant employees including engineers:moon:.
HIMILESV8SPORT
Member
here's a good one, another Japanese automaker recommends a valve body replacement on a TSB at 70% the cost of a cvt replacement that includes the valve body. 8 out of 10 then got the cvt replaced under warranty also after the valve body didn't fix the issue. :doh:
Drift Monkey
New member
Where does one obtain this magic "4x4 fluid?"
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firebirdguy
Member
less than a year old?? where did you get that from? the maintenance interval stated in the manual for ATF is 60k if towing/abused & 100k otherwise, there is no mention of time... dont think anybody has ever put 60-100k miles on their 4runner in 1 year! they are NOT about money, the intervals are from aisin who makes the trans as well as the toyota engineers that designed & made the vehicle, not some local guy at a dealership that you claim to know.
yes the thread is about how many are still on original fluid, you are the one suggesting & condoning that its ok to go to almost 300k miles on the original fluid... what do your engineer buddies say about that??? what do you think aisin would say about that?
im not aware of any transmission builders or shops that disagree with an exchange of trans fluid, again not flushes! if talking about knowing people in the field matters to you so much, i know quite a few guys & am friends with a few that own trans shops as well as machine shops that build high dollar high horsepower engines that agree with doing trans fluid exchanges or drain & fills just like the vehicle manufacturers do. i also have many lifelong friends that are ASE certified mechanics for 30+ years that would laugh at your suggestion of not following simple maintenance guidelines or going to 300k on factory fluid! what i said is not my opinion & i never claimed to be an "absolute source of knowledge," its common sense & advice from reputable mechanics & educated trans/engine builders that have been doing this for decades, not some guy in the parts dept at a dealership... which by the way are the king of selling you parts & ripping off unknowing customers!
again, converter issues can be & many times are related to fluid issues or abuse... why do you think the shudder fix helps or fixes shudder problems? did it magically rebuild the converter? no. it replenished the additives to help with shudder, same with new fluid that can help the issue. do some reading on here or other forums, countless people report improved or fixed shudder issues with new fluid or an additive. its not just me like you apparently seem to think. & of course the dealership replaced the converter if it was bad or under warranty, dealerships are there to make money.
i will end this here since you seem to think this is my opinion & not based on facts & logic... you do you & keep running your fluids to ridiculous mileage/time & keep trying to justify it... because "whats another $5-$600?" (its easily over $1000 to replace a trans, tell us what your dealership quotes for a trans replacement??!! LOL!) everyone else will follow what the people who design the vehicle & transmission say to do.
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HIMILESV8SPORT
Member
2002 was the 1st year for WS fluid. 03 was the 1st year for a 4th gen right? By the way, what 4runner do you drive?
This V-8-Swapped Celica Is the Toyota Sports Car We Need
Funny how I have pics of this on my FB feed from some guy I" claim to know". I bet swapping a V8 and rwd into a Celica isn't recommended by the engineers either... better yet, how about an 01 Camry 2grfe 5spd the pilot plant engineers play with at the plant here???
I'm not suggesting anyone go 300k on the fluid, just saying at this point I'm not paying $100+ in fluid for a 300k trans. when $10 shudder fix got mine right again. I'll wait until it fails and replace it and fill it with new WS.
Can you not read where I've already swapped 2 transmissions? Look at car-part, call LKQ and see what the trans sell for. A salvage yard less than 2 hours from me has 7 for sale, 137k-342k. $225-350. I'll bet the 342k still has original WS by the way...haha. Parts guys only sell what service recommends usually. I've sent many counter customers online for their best interests. I mean, you ever priced sway bar links, a/f and o2's at a dealer before?? haha
Seriously, I'm just saying that I'm still on the original fluid, you may think it's crazy and all, but my 4runner looks better and drives better than yours or lack there of one..... 10 hours labor for customer pay by the way
"everyone" will follow just like everyone gets their oil changed exactly when recommended right? :wtf:
This V-8-Swapped Celica Is the Toyota Sports Car We Need
Funny how I have pics of this on my FB feed from some guy I" claim to know". I bet swapping a V8 and rwd into a Celica isn't recommended by the engineers either... better yet, how about an 01 Camry 2grfe 5spd the pilot plant engineers play with at the plant here???
I'm not suggesting anyone go 300k on the fluid, just saying at this point I'm not paying $100+ in fluid for a 300k trans. when $10 shudder fix got mine right again. I'll wait until it fails and replace it and fill it with new WS.
Can you not read where I've already swapped 2 transmissions? Look at car-part, call LKQ and see what the trans sell for. A salvage yard less than 2 hours from me has 7 for sale, 137k-342k. $225-350. I'll bet the 342k still has original WS by the way...haha. Parts guys only sell what service recommends usually. I've sent many counter customers online for their best interests. I mean, you ever priced sway bar links, a/f and o2's at a dealer before?? haha
Seriously, I'm just saying that I'm still on the original fluid, you may think it's crazy and all, but my 4runner looks better and drives better than yours or lack there of one..... 10 hours labor for customer pay by the way
"everyone" will follow just like everyone gets their oil changed exactly when recommended right? :wtf:
Attachments
firebirdguy
Member
well so much for trying to end this but i will reply to each of your comments... are you're having a bad day or something... you keep comparing who you know or what you think you know to my simple statements of what toyota & aisin recommends for maintenance & what most trans shops or ASE certified mechanics suggests. what does the first year for WS or when the first year of 4th gens are have to do with this thread or my comments?? :noidea:
& you even made light of WS not being "lifetime fluid" yet for some reason its ok to go to 300k miles on it & you won't pay $60-$75 for fluid (not $100+) & exchange it yourself (if you even know how, see i can do that too) but its ok to spend $300+ for a used trans with 150-300k miles on it... who buys a used trans with 342k miles??? & for the 3rd time now, it will cost $1000+ to actually install the trans, or doing it yourself will take many hours... but you cant spend ~1 hour to change the darn fluid?? ohhh kay!
what do i drive or "lack there of" LOL! why does that matter? but if you must know i drive a 2008 sport edition 4runner with 145k miles. which has all service done at or close to recommended intervals. but yours looks & DRIVES better than mine with your shudder problems & a $10 band aid to fix it. :rofl:
now tell us "why" shudder fix made it right? apparently you dont understand or believe that shudder fix has concentrated anti-shudder additives to improve or fix shudder problems. & ATF has the same additives & states that on the bottle that its designed to eliminate shudder issues. so, if the shudder fix or atf is designed to help or avoid shudder, why do you keep insisting its not fluid related??? yes a converter can physically go bad, but it is a fact that fluid gets worn out & can contribute to or cause shudder issues. but keep deflecting or avoiding the facts if it "makes you feel better"...
i could not care less what you do with your vehicle, but your reasoning & logic is severely flawed with some of your comments. i simply asked why you would go that long on the factory fluid, you turned it into this long rant about who you know & what i drive & that shudder fix fixed your problem but shudder isnt fluid related. talk about :wtf:
you swapped 2 transmissions? LOL! but since you're in a one way competition here, i have probably swapped 10+ transmissions & 15 engines & have been working on cars for 30+ years. & i have done full frame off restorations on 3 firebirds i own & 2 or 3 on friends cars. my last one is a 550hp pontiac engine that runs flat 11 second quarter mile times at 123 mph on pump gas... do all the work myself besides actual machine work & spraying the paint because i dont have a spray booth. but you have pics of a celica on your facebook & know about a camry engineers play with... :blabla: tell the guy you know the V8 celica looks cool!
oil changes? yeah most guys on here change it before the suggested intervals & are very anal about it or what brand they use or send in for oil analysis.. but based on your logic you probably go to what, 20k miles? heck why not, a new engine is only $1000.
this was fun but please don't reply with more non sense, i'm done trying to have a legitimate conversation. have a nice day.
& you even made light of WS not being "lifetime fluid" yet for some reason its ok to go to 300k miles on it & you won't pay $60-$75 for fluid (not $100+) & exchange it yourself (if you even know how, see i can do that too) but its ok to spend $300+ for a used trans with 150-300k miles on it... who buys a used trans with 342k miles??? & for the 3rd time now, it will cost $1000+ to actually install the trans, or doing it yourself will take many hours... but you cant spend ~1 hour to change the darn fluid?? ohhh kay!
what do i drive or "lack there of" LOL! why does that matter? but if you must know i drive a 2008 sport edition 4runner with 145k miles. which has all service done at or close to recommended intervals. but yours looks & DRIVES better than mine with your shudder problems & a $10 band aid to fix it. :rofl:
now tell us "why" shudder fix made it right? apparently you dont understand or believe that shudder fix has concentrated anti-shudder additives to improve or fix shudder problems. & ATF has the same additives & states that on the bottle that its designed to eliminate shudder issues. so, if the shudder fix or atf is designed to help or avoid shudder, why do you keep insisting its not fluid related??? yes a converter can physically go bad, but it is a fact that fluid gets worn out & can contribute to or cause shudder issues. but keep deflecting or avoiding the facts if it "makes you feel better"...
i could not care less what you do with your vehicle, but your reasoning & logic is severely flawed with some of your comments. i simply asked why you would go that long on the factory fluid, you turned it into this long rant about who you know & what i drive & that shudder fix fixed your problem but shudder isnt fluid related. talk about :wtf:
you swapped 2 transmissions? LOL! but since you're in a one way competition here, i have probably swapped 10+ transmissions & 15 engines & have been working on cars for 30+ years. & i have done full frame off restorations on 3 firebirds i own & 2 or 3 on friends cars. my last one is a 550hp pontiac engine that runs flat 11 second quarter mile times at 123 mph on pump gas... do all the work myself besides actual machine work & spraying the paint because i dont have a spray booth. but you have pics of a celica on your facebook & know about a camry engineers play with... :blabla: tell the guy you know the V8 celica looks cool!
oil changes? yeah most guys on here change it before the suggested intervals & are very anal about it or what brand they use or send in for oil analysis.. but based on your logic you probably go to what, 20k miles? heck why not, a new engine is only $1000.
this was fun but please don't reply with more non sense, i'm done trying to have a legitimate conversation. have a nice day.
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Drift Monkey
New member
lolwut...12 quarts of Valvoline MaxLife ATF was under $60 bucks. All it costed me was that and some time to do the fluid exchange.
HIMILESV8SPORT
Member
Legitimate??? you say I can swap my fluid for $60-75? I guess we're not going by the owners manual now where it says genuine WS fluid?? It's $10/qt average. You're not getting it for half that.
It won't cost $1000+!!! what is so hard to believe, here I'll show you....
V-8, AUTO, 4X4 151,206 A 015717 $325 Brickyard Imported Cars USA-IN(Brooklyn) 317-831-2627 / 800-247-9273 call them and ask gramps!
Even after gas to drive 4hrs round trip, a meal, fluid, maybe some seals needed too, i'm still way under $1000...
Also, engines with the same mileage as the transmissions I listed are $600 or less. But I do change my oil every 2500 with a D3 and mobil 1 thank you. Keep pouring out all your friction material from the clutches and get back to me when you're at close to 300,000 ok?? ironic that I've been working on cars since 97 and only replaced 2, you say "probably 10+"....hmmmm Maybe you should use the fluid recommended in your owners manual and you wouldn't of swapped 5 times as many transmissions....haha I know, they were probably for others, but I couldn't pass that up. Good job on the firebirds. That's hauling for an old bird! And impressive you're using a pontiac engine, not a buick or small block. Now go buy a vehicle with 270k on it without a trans fluid service ever done and swap it out and let me know how it goes....
It won't cost $1000+!!! what is so hard to believe, here I'll show you....
V-8, AUTO, 4X4 151,206 A 015717 $325 Brickyard Imported Cars USA-IN(Brooklyn) 317-831-2627 / 800-247-9273 call them and ask gramps!
Even after gas to drive 4hrs round trip, a meal, fluid, maybe some seals needed too, i'm still way under $1000...
Also, engines with the same mileage as the transmissions I listed are $600 or less. But I do change my oil every 2500 with a D3 and mobil 1 thank you. Keep pouring out all your friction material from the clutches and get back to me when you're at close to 300,000 ok?? ironic that I've been working on cars since 97 and only replaced 2, you say "probably 10+"....hmmmm Maybe you should use the fluid recommended in your owners manual and you wouldn't of swapped 5 times as many transmissions....haha I know, they were probably for others, but I couldn't pass that up. Good job on the firebirds. That's hauling for an old bird! And impressive you're using a pontiac engine, not a buick or small block. Now go buy a vehicle with 270k on it without a trans fluid service ever done and swap it out and let me know how it goes....
