Hey folks, have a question for you and any guidance would be much appreciated. Have a 99 limited, love this rig and all seemed to be fine. live in the PNW and just general running around get 16-17, put it out on the highway more like 19 and have 163,000 miles on it. Like I said runs great smooth etc... had regular maintenance from previous owner and then this. Out of the blue, check engine light, mechanic says - both cats & sensors are bad and they want 3300.00 to fix!! OMG, getting a second opinion on Thursday but is this what I am to expect ya think? I mean I want to fix it, really do enjoy the truck but do not want to take it in the shorts if you know what I mean. I have some skills & limited tools but have heard aftermarket cats are not worth the expense. Any help would be appreciated. Going to go pick it up and head to work but will check in later. thanks a bunch! Greg
How much?!!
- Thread starter Cateo78
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the great him
Elite Member
yeah no, try replacing the O2 sensors first, id start off with the forward one... clear the codes and see if that works, if that doesnt work then id look at changing the rear one(o2 sensor that is), and clearing codes again... if they are still saying the cat is bad then change the cat. but only use a toyota OE cat. at your mileage your o2 sensors should be changed anyways, toyota recommends changing them out ever 80k miles, most people dont and then they start getting crappy mileage and throwing codes ect... so you might just have a bad o2 sensor or two... dont let your mechanic rape you for $3300 though, if you are local ill swap your o2 sensors for you for $20 a pop -and only buy denso o2 sensors, dont buy a bosch sensor or part for anything on these trucks
MCObray
New member
As previously stated, I would start with F&R Denso o2 sensors. I ordered mine through Amazon.com and payed $162 for both F&R. Mine is a '00 4Runner, with Cali-Emissions, so the parts were Denso 234-4153 Oxygen Sensor, and Denso 234-9002 Air Fuel Ratio Sensor. If you do plan to replace these, don't mind spraying some PB Blaster on the threads. Hope that helps!
downpour11
New member
x3, sounds like they pinpointed it as o2 sensors yet they are gonna try and rape you by just telling you to replace the whole sha-bang. Go buy a new o2 sensor and like kid said, replace the forward one first and if that doesn't work, pop it out and put in the the rear and clear the codes again. With mine, it was just one o2 sensor bad and it ended up being the rear. Good luck.
the great him
Elite Member
id still recommend replacing both, the recommended interval for change is 80k miles, he has over 160k, thats double the recommended mileage, i doubt very much either one of them has been changed ever... -i dont think its gonna fail at 3k over the "recommended" life span, hence why i say i doubt its ever been changed. and with twice what they are supposed to have, may as well do both, they are cheap enough considering...
the great him
Elite Member
- for what its worth, i have over 250k on my runner, and im still on the stock factory cat... i doubt very highly that your cat is bad
Just a question. Does the 97 Cali emission 4runner uses the same pre oxygen sensor as you stated? Mine has 180K and still the original sensors.
MCObray
New member
I do not believe so, but to verify you should check out your VIN, which would be the tell tale sign if you do or not. I also had a sticker under my hood, on the hood, that stated that this vehicle was equipped with Cali-Emissions. And for what it's worth, I believe only '99-'00 were Cali-Emission vehicles.
Hey guy's, Thanks a bunch. It gives me some peace of mind to go with my gut feeling about the sensors. I did ask the shop why not just try the sensors first (way more cost efficient)and they said it was only part of the problem. Not sure I was getting the full story?? Who knows but I will get these Denso's ASAP and figure out what is up! Thanks again, Greg
tyr0981
New member
248k miles on my OEM exhaust, no problems here either... OEM everything mechanically except Radiator, coil packs, and the usual of brake pads, belts, plugs....
the most expensive standard fix on the 4runners are the brake rotors (for me), with these tires i think the OEM ones can't handle the heat, so i bought some cross drilled/ ceramic pads kit off of amazon, nearly 10k on them so far and no vibrations yet....
Brian757
New member
I hope the mechanic said your cat is bad and not your cat(s). Because right there I would notice he is retarded. We only have one cat.
But $3,300 is ridiculous. I would do as the_kid said and try the bank 1 sensor 1 near your exhaust manifold, not the one under your truck. Do as he said and get a diagnostic tool and erase the code. Drive around for a while to see if the CEL comes back.
I doubt your catalytic converter is bad. Run some Sea foam through your PCV valve... In your mechanics lot..
But $3,300 is ridiculous. I would do as the_kid said and try the bank 1 sensor 1 near your exhaust manifold, not the one under your truck. Do as he said and get a diagnostic tool and erase the code. Drive around for a while to see if the CEL comes back.
I doubt your catalytic converter is bad. Run some Sea foam through your PCV valve... In your mechanics lot..
TheDurk
Elite Member
He has a '99--if he has Cali. emissions, he has two cats. I fully agree with changing sensors first. Changing the rear sensor cured my P0420 two years ago on my '99 with Cali. emissions. Yet we keep getting dealers saying P0420 is ALWAYS the cats. That's why we call them stealers. If I had gone to your guy two years ago I would be out $3300.
TheDurk
Elite Member
No Cali's in 1997. It's the same actual sensor as the 234-4153, but the wire length varies according to front/rear, engine, trans, 4wd/RWD so it's a different part. Go to http://www.densoaftermarket.com/catalog/catalog.php?part=o2sn and look it up yourself. Then go to Amazon with the Denso part numbers for the best price. Google the number to see if there is a deal elsewhere but Amazon is usually the best.
If you have an auto trans, there may be a problem with the rear part number on your year according to some members. PM me your truck particulars and I'll try to help you nail it down.
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the great him
Elite Member
all the back sensor does is check the cat(s) to make sure they are doing their job, if you get a P0420 code i would first replace the rear sensor(as its cheaper) and clear codes and drive it, if the code comes back then yes it is your cat... -in a way the dealer is correct that code typically means you have a bad cat as the rear sensor does nothing other than check the cats to make sure they are working. the rear sensor does not affect how the truck runs, it does not change any A/F ratios or timing inputs ect. it simply is a check on things. typically they are not the sensor to go bad. but i would rather replace once of those than a cat.
TheDurk
Elite Member
I know that, I've posted it several times. At his mileage on original sensors, he wants to do both sensors anyway. And the" typically, it is the cat" attitude is JUST WRONG when the rear sensor has more than 80k. It is MUCH more likely to be the rear sensor as it is end-of-life and the cat is not, absent any physical damage or poor maintenance causing excess unburnt fuel to the cat--which is a good reason to change that old front sensor as I recommended as that is exactly the kind of poor maintenance that can kill a cat.
The statement I bolded is wrong. The fronts do go first, typically, but the rears will go shortly thereafter and they do that by throwing a false p0420 as mine did or by throwing a heater code. My rear lasted only 20k longer than my front. But if you are only going to do one to fix a P0420, I'd do the rear because the fronts are rarely the cause of a false P0420; they fail in other ways. At that mileage, he probably has degraded mpg and performance even if he has no codes due to that old front sensor so doing both is better.
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the great him
Elite Member
^^^ yes.
most techs though are taught to replace everything at once, because for the shop it saves them money and time in repeat customer who keeps having the same issue... its kinda like a safety net for them. and lets be honest, most people will get really irritated(especially at a dealer) for having to come back again and again for the same issue -(all the customer knows is the CEL keeps coming back on after it was "fixed"). thats how you lose customers... so i can see their rational. but if both senors are replaced at the same time, you might not actually pin point the actual cause. now if you care more about a fix than a cause by all means replace both sensors at the same time and save yourself some trouble.
most techs though are taught to replace everything at once, because for the shop it saves them money and time in repeat customer who keeps having the same issue... its kinda like a safety net for them. and lets be honest, most people will get really irritated(especially at a dealer) for having to come back again and again for the same issue -(all the customer knows is the CEL keeps coming back on after it was "fixed"). thats how you lose customers... so i can see their rational. but if both senors are replaced at the same time, you might not actually pin point the actual cause. now if you care more about a fix than a cause by all means replace both sensors at the same time and save yourself some trouble.
Brian757
New member
Ahh. That is quite interesting. Well, California is a beautiful place. Keeping emissions down is a good way to keep it beautiful. I never knew that. Very cool. ... I guess Im the retard now.. :der:
You make a very valid point. I never even thought of it that way. I guess the only way to consider dealers, stealers, is that they don't search up and down to find you parts for cheaper, and they over charge for labor. But preventative maintenance is spot on kid. I KNOW if my mom had an issue with her Sienna and brought it in and they tried fixing one thing at a time, she would raise hell with a manager.
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the great him
Elite Member
^^^ exactly, and thats why shops lose customers! they have to keep coming back for the same thing, and most of the time when they do so, the customer doesn't pay... cause in their eyes the shop screwed up and either didnt fix the issue the first time(like they were supposed to), or they put on parts that "weren't needed"(they might have been but refer to previous statement). then you add in the time that the service writer takes to make an new appt for the cust, the techs time(he will make one hour on that return job, thats it so he has to re-diagnose and fix the problem within that hour or its on his time -the beauty of flat rate), and the time taken away from other work that could be bringing in a much larger profit.... i have worked at a dealer, independent shops and for fleet services, i have filled almost every roll from wash bittch, to service writer/customer service, to tech, shop foreman... this is basically an industry standard operating practice
im in no way saying this is always the case when you bring your vehicle to the shop/dealer to get fixed and you have to bring it back... no, sometimes you just have a dumb tech who shouldnt even be changing the coffee in the coffee pot let alone turning a wrench under the hood of your car. but this is the reality of business for most shops. if they can fix the issue in one shot and make that customer happy and do it right the first time then the chances are that that customer will come back the next time something goes wrong with their car. and it saves the shop/dealer time to get other work done on other cars and increase profits.
now sometimes -all be it a lot of times parts do get replaced that are not bad or did not need replacing. the dealer will not replace a bad pinion bearing in a diff, no they will replace the whole diff, brand new 3rd member. this way the tech cant screw it up, by either forgetting something, or not being perfect on the lash ect, and the time is so much faster to just swap a 3rd then it is to clean and rebuild a 3rd... this goes with many other things too... -broken valve spring... they are just gonna put a new head on the motor. because they say, well if one valve spring broke then others might not be far behind and its cheaper and faster for us to just swap a head than it is to tear down and replace every spring, and guide and retainer ect...
now when it comes to the o2 senors and the cat(s) if they just go in a replace it all, it eliminates having to go back a second and third time to replace another part each time the code comes back. they are just starting with a clean slate and base of knowing everything is new. -because lets be honest here the service writer and the tech have no idea the maintenance history on your vehicle, they dont know if you have ever replaced your 02 sensor(and if you did, did you use the right one...), so no they are gonna quote you what they would do, and do do to fix the problem and get it done right. again here comes that flat rate pay issue again; the tech does not get paid to go and run through every single possible scenario, hes not got all day to replace a part and see if that fixes the issue, (the computer/CEL just says where the problem is/what the problem is, it does not tell you what part is bad or needs replaced) so he must narrow it down as fast as he can and then replace the parts that are most commonly attributed to this issue. thats why they will say we are replacing everything. boom one shot gets the job done, and the customer is happy and has a fixed car and goes home happy.
now i understand that some of us here, most of us, will take the time to chase down the actual problem and sort it out and fix ONLY what is broken, ok i get that, i get that we are trying to save money here(hence why we are here and not paying the dealer to fix this stuff for us) so i under stand that we will put more time into it and figure it out on our own for much less
im in no way saying this is always the case when you bring your vehicle to the shop/dealer to get fixed and you have to bring it back... no, sometimes you just have a dumb tech who shouldnt even be changing the coffee in the coffee pot let alone turning a wrench under the hood of your car. but this is the reality of business for most shops. if they can fix the issue in one shot and make that customer happy and do it right the first time then the chances are that that customer will come back the next time something goes wrong with their car. and it saves the shop/dealer time to get other work done on other cars and increase profits.
now sometimes -all be it a lot of times parts do get replaced that are not bad or did not need replacing. the dealer will not replace a bad pinion bearing in a diff, no they will replace the whole diff, brand new 3rd member. this way the tech cant screw it up, by either forgetting something, or not being perfect on the lash ect, and the time is so much faster to just swap a 3rd then it is to clean and rebuild a 3rd... this goes with many other things too... -broken valve spring... they are just gonna put a new head on the motor. because they say, well if one valve spring broke then others might not be far behind and its cheaper and faster for us to just swap a head than it is to tear down and replace every spring, and guide and retainer ect...
now when it comes to the o2 senors and the cat(s) if they just go in a replace it all, it eliminates having to go back a second and third time to replace another part each time the code comes back. they are just starting with a clean slate and base of knowing everything is new. -because lets be honest here the service writer and the tech have no idea the maintenance history on your vehicle, they dont know if you have ever replaced your 02 sensor(and if you did, did you use the right one...), so no they are gonna quote you what they would do, and do do to fix the problem and get it done right. again here comes that flat rate pay issue again; the tech does not get paid to go and run through every single possible scenario, hes not got all day to replace a part and see if that fixes the issue, (the computer/CEL just says where the problem is/what the problem is, it does not tell you what part is bad or needs replaced) so he must narrow it down as fast as he can and then replace the parts that are most commonly attributed to this issue. thats why they will say we are replacing everything. boom one shot gets the job done, and the customer is happy and has a fixed car and goes home happy.
now i understand that some of us here, most of us, will take the time to chase down the actual problem and sort it out and fix ONLY what is broken, ok i get that, i get that we are trying to save money here(hence why we are here and not paying the dealer to fix this stuff for us) so i under stand that we will put more time into it and figure it out on our own for much less
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Brian757
New member
I guess I don't like dealerships because they seem so condescending sometimes.
Also, my moms Sienna is actually in the shop right now because of a driver door recall.
They called her today and said she needs to come back to the dealership and drive her van from the maintenance department to the body shop. They said they cannot do it. MIND YOU!, the body shop is attached to the maintenance shop, but they are in seperate lots. I am assuming they are having her do this for liability reasons? But it's silly in my opinion. They also told her she has 130,000 miles on it and she is due for a WP, TB change. She said, "Just fix the door and we will worry about that later."
When we suggest preventative maintenance to our peers on T4R.org, we accept that suggestion and there is a 50/50 shot we will perform the repair. When a dealership suggests preventative maintenance, we lock up and assume they are nickel and diming us. Its the nature of the beast.
Also, my moms Sienna is actually in the shop right now because of a driver door recall.
They called her today and said she needs to come back to the dealership and drive her van from the maintenance department to the body shop. They said they cannot do it. MIND YOU!, the body shop is attached to the maintenance shop, but they are in seperate lots. I am assuming they are having her do this for liability reasons? But it's silly in my opinion. They also told her she has 130,000 miles on it and she is due for a WP, TB change. She said, "Just fix the door and we will worry about that later."
When we suggest preventative maintenance to our peers on T4R.org, we accept that suggestion and there is a 50/50 shot we will perform the repair. When a dealership suggests preventative maintenance, we lock up and assume they are nickel and diming us. Its the nature of the beast.
