Lindenwood
New member
Thanks for the info!
Can you help me understand what specific limitations MTS has that make it worse for faster climbs?
How often have you used MTS?
- Thread starter el_kab0ng
- Start date
Can you help me understand what specific limitations MTS has that make it worse for faster climbs?
ToyoDriver
New member
Not buying a trail put BFG K02s, SSO Sliders, TRD wheels, a third row of seating, and not having to sound like a dork when chicks ask "What is that button for?" on my T4R.
I'm sure up there in NC where there are things like "hills" and "mountains" and "Rocks" - items totally foreign to us down in South FL, it might come in handy but how is anything the Trail edition has going to help me in my AO? I see Buicks get through the mall parking lot during a thunderstorm totally fine
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Zonie Taco
New member
Never use it. I tried using it when I first bought the rig but I did not notice it doing anything. Crawl control I use a lot on hill descents and on flat surfaces that are too easy to be interesting but too bad to go fast. I feel like it lessens mental fatigue of having to pay attention to my speed and I can enjoy the views and focus on steering. Every time I think I'm better at hill descent down something really steep without crawl control I usually end up hitting bottom. I've learned that it does a better job than i do no matter how slow I try to go. Could be user error but I've learned to trust it going downhill. Do not use it going uphill. ATRAC I use all the time, that thing is awesome once you learn how to keep your revs steady. Rear locker I use when things get bad. Have only used locker a few dozen times. I'm looking to get a front locker if I regear when I put some bigger tires on. Front swaybar is going away soon.
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e60ral
Banned
Not buying a trail put BFG K02s, SSO Sliders, TRD wheels, a third row of seating, and not having to sound like a dork when chicks ask "What is that button for?" on my T4R.
I'm sure up there in NC where there are things like "hills" and "mountains" and "Rocks" - items totally foreign to us down in South FL, it might come in handy but how is anything the Trail edition has going to help me in my AO? I see Buicks get through the mall parking lot during a thunderstorm totally fine
wanting a third row, wanting the features only available on the limited, wanting to save money, etc.. are all real reasons not to get a trail
calling crawl control and MTS cheating or "easy buttons" or saying they don't work at all is silly justification. how many people think crawl control is cheating but then cheat by increasing their ground clearance or cheat by getting all terrain tires or cheat by removing their sway bar etc...
MTS and crawl control are just another tool to use like everything else, and like everything else they can be very useful but only if you understand how to use them and what their limitations are
BLACK-FL4RUNNER
Member
How often have you used MTS?
Never. :becky:
Never. :becky:
It's becoming clear that we have 3 kinds of T4R folks who post on these forums (each with distinctly different needs/ideas/forum commentary).
1. Rock climbing/extreme challenge/technical driving. - These guys don't need or want MTS it seems.
2. Overlanders/Campers/Trail Riders - These guys seem to appreciate the options to be able to focus on the moment rather than the technical.
3. Daily Drivers/Soccer Moms/Mall Crawlers - These guys could care less and would probably be best suited for a non-TE/TRD model.
1. Rock climbing/extreme challenge/technical driving. - These guys don't need or want MTS it seems.
2. Overlanders/Campers/Trail Riders - These guys seem to appreciate the options to be able to focus on the moment rather than the technical.
3. Daily Drivers/Soccer Moms/Mall Crawlers - These guys could care less and would probably be best suited for a non-TE/TRD model.
wfo9
New member
This seems pretty accurate. But just to add. for #2-3 2wd is usually adequate. ;-)
For #1, I've spent many hours doing this in 5th gens over the past 2 years. Still learning what is possible..., but I'm guessing I'm in the 1% in terms of time in extreme terrain with them (and honestly a 5th gen can't go in really extreme terrain, I would classify it more as technical). In this time... I have yet to see anybody use any of the electronic gadgets besides ATRAC with any success. ATRAC works because it attempts to simulate a proven offroad mechanical feature (lockers). It does a decent job with the simulation, but it is still far short of an actual mechanical locker. Crawl control attempts to simulate a multi speed transfer case (which is also a huge benefit offroad). But it does that simulation very poorly with many compromises.
First problem is it takes the driver out of the control loop of brake and throttle, second it is so noisy in extreme situations that it makes you feel uncomfortable. Third it has no feedback, so the driver gets no input to know what to do (not there is much he can do besides steer or hit the brakes and turn it off).
These gadgets (MTS and crawl) do have some useful utility in certain situations. It's good to play with them and know what they can do... It's just that it is very small compared to good old fashion basics.... You will get 1000x more overall off-road capability and enjoyment, just learning to drive the vehicle without ever touching them much. I feel people who are new to off road and buy a 5th gen trail... get way to focused on the knobs and buttons. Spend some time on them, but don't wast too much time....
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Jetboy
New member
I find the rock mode to be useful - in the rocks. I've noticed that in the situation where only one front tire has traction and the rear is high centered, putting it in rock mode requires significantly less wheel spin to get the one tire on rock to spin. Slickrock is a good place to experience the difference. The other end of the dial (mud?) has less skidding in full lock turns. It only works under 7mph, so I don't really see much reason to have 4 levels of adjustment under 7mph. I think it'd be easier or more self explanatory to call it an Atrac adjustment.
I would rather have a front locker. And ATRAC works pretty well too. There are a few instances where MTS does have a noticeable difference in being more aggressive up front. it's as close to locking the front as I can get. By the time I've turned it on I've almost always already locked the rear diff. I rarely do high speed sand or mud.
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I would rather have a front locker. And ATRAC works pretty well too. There are a few instances where MTS does have a noticeable difference in being more aggressive up front. it's as close to locking the front as I can get. By the time I've turned it on I've almost always already locked the rear diff. I rarely do high speed sand or mud.
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downshift
New member
How would MTS handle a situation like this?
You're on a packed snow covered road, say like a road to a ski resort. There are snowy parts, icy parts, slushy parts, even some bare parts. You're in 4HI (locking the transfer) with MTS in level 1. As you round a curve, the front tires lose some traction due to the transfer being locked, causing understeer.
Would MTS do anything at all? The front tires are slipping, but not really spinning.
How about VSC? Would it activate? If I understand VSC correctly, it would brake the inside rear wheel in this situation.
You're on a packed snow covered road, say like a road to a ski resort. There are snowy parts, icy parts, slushy parts, even some bare parts. You're in 4HI (locking the transfer) with MTS in level 1. As you round a curve, the front tires lose some traction due to the transfer being locked, causing understeer.
Would MTS do anything at all? The front tires are slipping, but not really spinning.
How about VSC? Would it activate? If I understand VSC correctly, it would brake the inside rear wheel in this situation.
If the yaw rate is off enough, VSC will attempt to intervene usually. Difference is most of the systems tend to allow much more understeer, as it's "safer", than oversteer. If you try to flick it in to a corner and get the back out, the VSC will shutdown fun time with a quickness.
4Rager
New member
I used MTS a few times just to try it out, but from then on I would just press the ATRAC button instead. I never really experienced a need for it when just wheeling along, but would typically use it when the rear was locked and one of the front wheels was in the air and I needed it to act as a front locker. The one time I feel like the MTS settings actually did help was when I was going up a muddy climb, since it allowed for some slippage to keep up wheel speed and momentum. But we don't see mud often here in Northern NV.
downshift
New member
Makes sense. MTS won't do anything in that situation.
I could see oversteer happening as well. You hit the brakes, the rear tires get unloaded and are still forced to turn the same amount as the front, and they lose traction. You could swap ends in a hurry this way.
I still don't know why these trucks don't come with the ability to lock/unlock the transfer as needed. All the posts I see about locking the transfer say you rarely ever want/need to do it.
I absolutely love the crawl control and multi-terrain select features...and yes, it's almost so good it feels like you're cheating.
Having grown up driving 30 year old Land Cruisers, I really appreciate the ability to greatly reduce wear and tear on the drive train from slippage, and negating a spinning tire suddenly finding traction; which could result in breakage.
I use mine frequently.
-H-
Having grown up driving 30 year old Land Cruisers, I really appreciate the ability to greatly reduce wear and tear on the drive train from slippage, and negating a spinning tire suddenly finding traction; which could result in breakage.
I use mine frequently.
-H-
downshift
New member
I'm sure you're right, but wouldn't unlocking the transfer also reduce wear and tear on the drive train?
I had an '03 with full time AWD and I don't think I ever had to lock the transfer. It got me into and out of a lot of places, and never even hiccuped. I'm a bit disappointed that my new '17 can't unlock the transfer.
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downshift
New member
I'm just sayin' that it seems strange that the '03's came with a lockable center diff standard, and in '17 you need to get the limited to get one. The TE versions should do all low traction activities better than the limited. Being able to unlock the center diff is something the limited does better.
Plus the limited comes with a bunch of junk I don't want, like a sunroof and leather seats, and the TE comes with stuff I do want, like a lockable rear diff and MTS.
For driving on partially snowy or icy roads, I really liked the all wheel drive of my 100 Series Land Cruiser. A VC transfer case is pretty good for that. Of course, any time a differential is locked, whether it be center, rear or front, there can be more wear on the drive train...especially if it's driven on a surface where there's no slip.
A locking center differential is important for off-tarmac use, given that the VC case will act just like an open differential, sending power to the least traction. Essentially, think about going up a loose incline; when the weight of the rig shifts towards the back, the front end can lose traction...leading to all the power being put to the front, and the rear wheels failing to drive. There goes the hill climb attempt.
With a "locked" center differential on a true, "transfer case", power will be applied equally front to rear, and thus, in the above example, the front end will be pulling the vehicle up the hill, while the rear will be pushing.
As this pertains to the Terrain Select modes on the 4Runners, it's easiest to think about how "tight" one would like the traction control to prevent wheelspin. On the Snow/Sand settings, it's a light control, allowing for more wheelspin...and gets tighter towards the "Rock" setting; with less wheelspin.
Of course, with the part-time cases on the 4Runners (non-AWD, eg. Limited), the center transfer case is "locked" at 50/50 in 4WD, so wheelspin is referring to side to side, at the front and rear.
-H-
A locking center differential is important for off-tarmac use, given that the VC case will act just like an open differential, sending power to the least traction. Essentially, think about going up a loose incline; when the weight of the rig shifts towards the back, the front end can lose traction...leading to all the power being put to the front, and the rear wheels failing to drive. There goes the hill climb attempt.
With a "locked" center differential on a true, "transfer case", power will be applied equally front to rear, and thus, in the above example, the front end will be pulling the vehicle up the hill, while the rear will be pushing.
As this pertains to the Terrain Select modes on the 4Runners, it's easiest to think about how "tight" one would like the traction control to prevent wheelspin. On the Snow/Sand settings, it's a light control, allowing for more wheelspin...and gets tighter towards the "Rock" setting; with less wheelspin.
Of course, with the part-time cases on the 4Runners (non-AWD, eg. Limited), the center transfer case is "locked" at 50/50 in 4WD, so wheelspin is referring to side to side, at the front and rear.
-H-
downshift
New member
Yep - makes sense. I'm just nervous about the situation I described earlier: driving 25 or 30 MPH on a snow covered road, and understeering off the road on a downhill turn because the front lost traction due to slippage from the transfer.
On the other hand, I had a '91 Toyota pickup with this setup, and I never had a problem. But I'm older and wiser now. When I was younger I didn't worry about such things!
On the other hand, I had a '91 Toyota pickup with this setup, and I never had a problem. But I'm older and wiser now. When I was younger I didn't worry about such things!
